Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

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brightfame52 said:
When I say men naturally i mean the unregenerate man, in the flesh, never born again ? Can this person seek after the True and Living God ? The answer is NO !

Scripture makes that clear, that man naturally doesnt seek after God Rom 3:9-12

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The word seekth here is related to and joined with Faith here Heb 11:1,6

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now the word seek here and the one in Rom 3:11 are the same greek word ekzeteo which means:

I seek out, seek out after, require.

to seek the favor of God, worship him

And believing Faith seeks after the True God. But because of our depravity by nature, we dont seek after God, nor have the ability to !
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In answer to your question: Does man naturally have ability to Seek God? sir, yes. God created into us the desire to worship. In isolated areas people who have no knowledge of the true God, worship some god. We are the only species on earth that worships, a distinction between us and the rest of creation, showing beyond a doubt we were made in God's image.
 
Highway54 said:
In answer to your question: Does man naturally have ability to Seek God? sir, yes. God created into us the desire to worship. In isolated areas people who have no knowledge of the true God, worship some god. We are the only species on earth that worships, a distinction between us and the rest of creation, showing beyond a doubt we were made in God's image.
Click to expand...
Sorry, man was ruined by the fall and so naturally we have no ability or desire to seek the True God and Jesus Christ. Why you think Jesus said Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

See that ? Mans inability and unwillingness are intertwined, one and the same.
 
brightfame52 said:
I know what it says and means. Rom 3:11-19 describes all men by nature, at all times !
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No it does not or you would quote it. It describes the Jews at a point in their history to show that they are no better than others.

Here is a list of people who sought the Lord proving that man can seek God if they choose to do so.

"As long as he sought the LORD, God gave him success."

"But Jehoahaz sought the LORD, and the LORD paid attention to him, because the LORD had been watching"

"When I was in distress, I sought the Lord;"

"I sought the LORD"

"Manasseh sought the LORD his God"

"Moses sought the LORD"

"He was a son of Jehoshaphat, who sought the LORD with all his heart"

"David sought the LORD"

"everyone who sought the LORD"

"They willingly sought the LORD"

"For 20 years the entire nation of Israel mournfully sought the LORD"

"(Hezekiah) sought the LORD"

"And I besought the LORD at that time, saying, And I sought the LORD"

quotes are KJV, NIV, ESV and NAS
 
brightfame52 said:
Sorry, man was ruined by the fall and so naturally we have no ability or desire to seek the True God and Jesus Christ. Why you think Jesus said Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

See that ? Mans inability and unwillingness are intertwined, one and the same.
Click to expand...
You won't like it but the Bible gives a list of those who sought the Lord. Now you can either adjust your thinking to match the Bible or adjust the Bible to match your thinking. Since you think "you will not come" means Jesus is talking to every single person on earth instead of those in front of him, it is pretty clear what you will choose.

As long as he sought the LORD, God gave him success."

"But Jehoahaz sought the LORD, and the LORD paid attention to him, because the LORD had been watching"

"When I was in distress, I sought the Lord;"

"I sought the LORD"

"Manasseh sought the LORD his God"

"Moses sought the LORD"

"He was a son of Jehoshaphat, who sought the LORD with all his heart"

"David sought the LORD"

"everyone who sought the LORD"

"They willingly sought the LORD"

"For 20 years the entire nation of Israel mournfully sought the LORD"

"(Hezekiah) sought the LORD"

"And I besought the LORD at that time, saying, And I sought the LORD"

quotes are KJV, NIV, ESV and NAS
 
Dorothy Mae said:
No it does not or you would quote it. It describes the Jews at a point in their history to show that they are no better than others.

Here is a list of people who sought the Lord proving that man can seek God if they choose to do so.

"As long as he sought the LORD, God gave him success."

"But Jehoahaz sought the LORD, and the LORD paid attention to him, because the LORD had been watching"

"When I was in distress, I sought the Lord;"

"I sought the LORD"

"Manasseh sought the LORD his God"

"Moses sought the LORD"

"He was a son of Jehoshaphat, who sought the LORD with all his heart"

"David sought the LORD"

"everyone who sought the LORD"

"They willingly sought the LORD"

"For 20 years the entire nation of Israel mournfully sought the LORD"

"(Hezekiah) sought the LORD"

"And I besought the LORD at that time, saying, And I sought the LORD"

quotes are KJV, NIV, ESV and NAS
Click to expand...
Oh Yes it does, no way around it.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
You won't like it but the Bible gives a list of those who sought the Lord. Now you can either adjust your thinking to match the Bible or adjust the Bible to match your thinking. Since you think "you will not come" means Jesus is talking to every single person on earth instead of those in front of him, it is pretty clear what you will choose.

As long as he sought the LORD, God gave him success."

"But Jehoahaz sought the LORD, and the LORD paid attention to him, because the LORD had been watching"

"When I was in distress, I sought the Lord;"

"I sought the LORD"

"Manasseh sought the LORD his God"

"Moses sought the LORD"

"He was a son of Jehoshaphat, who sought the LORD with all his heart"

"David sought the LORD"

"everyone who sought the LORD"

"They willingly sought the LORD"

"For 20 years the entire nation of Israel mournfully sought the LORD"

"(Hezekiah) sought the LORD"

"And I besought the LORD at that time, saying, And I sought the LORD"

quotes are KJV, NIV, ESV and NAS
Click to expand...
The natural man doesnt have the will or ability to seek after the True God, no way around it.
 
atpollard said:
Point of clarification: How would you define God giving people a new heart?
(Do they have a choice to keep the old heart?)
(Is their heart only partially new and partially old?)
(Can a heart be transformed and a mind renewed, but the life of the person remain unchanged … still wallowing in sin?)
Then we can try to understand the ‘efficacy’ of the “draw” of God.
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As you know, I believe in free will (libertarian) so I'll answer like this:

I'd say that for some the heart is half old and half new at the beginning.
For some it changes immediately.

After some time, the heart should be totally changed, even though sins do creep in now and then, but much
less than before although I don't believe anyone stops sinning completely and if they think they do then they don't understand how sensitive God is to sin.

A heart can be transformed and a mind renewed, but the life of the person cannot remain unchanged.
If the heart is transformed and the mind renewed (Romans 12) then the life MUST show a change.

I believe that God draws all men, some respond and some do not.
I believe that man is able to seek God.
It seems to me that the reformed pick and choose the verses they like and ignore those that don't fit into their paradigm.

1 Chronicles 16:11
11Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!
Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Psalm 9:10
And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.


If God tells us to seek Him, surely He must believe that we can.
 
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brightfame52 said:
Thats His Prerogative, have not you read Rom 9:15

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ex 34:7

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

You should bow to Gods word friend. God owes nobody Mercy !
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§God will have mercy upon whom He has mercy
and He will have compassion on whom He has compassion.
The difference in our understanding is that I know what He bases it on,
and YOU do not. Anyway, Romans 9 is speaking about the Jews and Gentiles.

As for Exodus 34:7, you are again creating conflict in the bible, as you usually do by following calvinist teachings, which, apparently, are not biblical or all these conflicts would not occur constantly.

Here is Exodus 34:7
6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”


Now let's look at some other verses:

Galatians 6:5
For each will have to bear his own load.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.
And let's not forget

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Jesus said:
Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.


So, BF, here we have another conflict created by you and the verse you posted.
So is your verse correct, or all the ones I've posted?

How to resolve YET ANOTHER conflict?
 
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brightfame52 said:
Nevertheless the scripture states it. Man naturally doesn't seek after God nor understands. Rom 3:11
Click to expand...
How many times do I need to post those verses to you?

Do you even read them?

Do you wonder why there's conflict within the bible?
Maybe Romans means something different?
Of course it does.
Find out what it means.
 
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wondering said:
§God will have mercy upon whom He has mercy
and He will have compassion on whom He has compassion.
The difference in our understanding is that I know what He bases it on,
and YOU do not. Anyway, Romans 9 is speaking about the Jews and Gentiles.

As for Exodus 34:7, you are again creating conflict in the bible, as you usually do by following calvinist teachings, which, apparently, are not biblical or all these conflicts would not occur constantly.

Here is Exodus 34:7
6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”


Now let's look at some other verses:

Galatians 6:5
For each will have to bear his own load.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.
And let's not forget

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Jesus said:
Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.


So, BF, here we have another conflict created by you and the verse you posted.
So is your verse correct, or all the ones I've posted?

How to resolve YET ANOTHER conflict?
Click to expand...
He bases it on His Own Sovereign Will, Nothing outside of Himself
 
wondering said:
Go back and read Romans 3:11
Then read all those verses I posted about how man is capable of seeking God.

How do you reconcile the two?
Click to expand...
Nothing to reconcile, man naturally just doesnt seek God nor understand Him Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Whats to reconcile ?
 
wondering said:
§God will have mercy upon whom He has mercy
and He will have compassion on whom He has compassion.
The difference in our understanding is that I know what He bases it on,
and YOU do not. Anyway, Romans 9 is speaking about the Jews and Gentiles.

As for Exodus 34:7, you are again creating conflict in the bible, as you usually do by following calvinist teachings, which, apparently, are not biblical or all these conflicts would not occur constantly.

Here is Exodus 34:7
6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”


Now let's look at some other verses:

Galatians 6:5
For each will have to bear his own load.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.
And let's not forget

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Jesus said:
Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.


So, BF, here we have another conflict created by you and the verse you posted.
So is your verse correct, or all the ones I've posted?

How to resolve YET ANOTHER conflict?
Click to expand...
Powerful post!!! Glad you’re on my side!!
 
brightfame52 said:
Sorry, man was ruined by the fall and so naturally we have no ability or desire to seek the True God and Jesus Christ. Why you think Jesus said Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

See that ? Mans inability and unwillingness are intertwined, one and the same.
Click to expand...
Ac 17:22 And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus, and said, Ye men of Athens, in all things, I perceive that ye are very religious.
Ac 17:23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. What therefore ye worship in ignorance, this I set forth unto you.
Ac 17:24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Humans have always worshipped gods, no other creature does. I was quite correct, God created us to worship Him sir. Gen 1:26

What is your understanding as to why humans who have never heard of God create a god to worship brightfame52
 
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