Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[brightfame52]

You add to the scripture changing it to suit your thinking. That is what I say. Either scripture changes your thinking to match scripture or you change scripture to match your thinking. This is an example of the latter.

Well man naturally born doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[brightfame52]

Why? Because we are made in God's image, our distinction with the animal creation.

Do you not understand that man sinned in Adam after creation, and man died to God ? God warned Man in Adam Gen 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So now men in Adam are dead Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

It seems you are not aware that men are born dead sinners now. I will teach you if you willing to learn, these are basic things friend.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again man by nature doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now if men do seek after the True God, its because God chose them and caused them to approach unto Him Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Romans 3:11

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Justification by Faith

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:11 is speaking about the Jews and the Gentiles.
Paul is saying that both Jews and Gentiles are under the law of sin.
He is saying that they do not understand God and what is right and wrong.
Open graves is expressing the evil that men tend toward...
Psalm 5:9 the enemies words cannot be trusted.

See verses 21 and 22 where this is made clear.
THERE IS NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile
FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT.

See verse 26....God will be just and will be the one who justifies those that have faith in Jesus.

First....those that have faith in Jesus...
Then...will be justified by God.

Nothing here about God choosing anyone....
but justifying those that have faith.

***********************************************************************


Psalm 65:4

1There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God,
And to You the vow will be performed.
2O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.

3Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.

4How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.


Who does God choose?
Please see verse 2:
God hears the prayers of men,
And to Him men come.

Once again proving that man is able to seek God.

It's unfortunate that you bring your theology to the verses,
instead of coming away with theology as the verses speak plainly.

 

[GodsGrace]

So we should cross WORLD from John 3:16 from our list of “proof texts”?

John 3:16 is not the only verse that states that God gave His son for the forgiveness of sin, for the ransom of many, as the shepherd of His flock, etc.

Let me try it this way for your comment, and as I've been trying to say to the OP, but he's on a one way track and can't get off.


Romans 3:11
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;



1 Chronicles 22:19
Now devote your heart and soul to seeking God...



There are MANY verses about how we are to seek God,,,BF and I had been discussing Chronicles.

The point is, we have two conflicting verses.
How do we reconcile this conflict?
What is the method one would use?
YOU would use.

 

[atpollard]

YOU would use.

I would avoid comparing SINGLE VERSES divorced from their context.

We have "sentences" collected into "paragraphs" and paragraphs collected into "chapters" and chapters collected into "books" for a reason. Each BOOK is expressing a broad idea. Each CHAPTER is systematically building and developing that broad idea. Each PARAGRAPH is a brick used to construct that Chapter and interlocks with all the other paragraphs. Each SENTENCE is only a thought ... part of the greater expressed in the simple idea of the Paragraph.

To compare two THOUGHT from possibly unrelated IDEAS and proclaim that they are in conflict is to do an injustice to the WHOLE: The Paragraph, the Chapter, the Book and - ultimately - to all of God breathed scripture.

That is the hermaeneutic that I would use ...

 

[atpollard]

John 3:16 is not the only verse that states that God gave His son for the forgiveness of sin, for the ransom of many, as the shepherd of His flock, etc.

Be careful there, you did not say "everyone without exception"!

You said "many".
You said "His flock".

Keep that up and people will start to whisper that YOU are reformed!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Romans 3:11

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Justification by Faith

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:11 is speaking about the Jews and the Gentiles.
Paul is saying that both Jews and Gentiles are under the law of sin.
He is saying that they do not understand God and what is right and wrong.
Open graves is expressing the evil that men tend toward...
Psalm 5:9 the enemies words cannot be trusted.

See verses 21 and 22 where this is made clear.
THERE IS NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile
FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT.

See verse 26....God will be just and will be the one who justifies those that have faith in Jesus.

First....those that have faith in Jesus...
Then...will be justified by God.

Nothing here about God choosing anyone....
but justifying those that have faith.

***********************************************************************


Psalm 65:4

1There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God,
And to You the vow will be performed.
2O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.

3Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.

4How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.


Who does God choose?
Please see verse 2:
God hears the prayers of men,
And to Him men come.

Once again proving that man is able to seek God.

It's unfortunate that you bring your theology to the verses,
instead of coming away with theology as the verses speak plainly.

Excellent!!

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 3:11

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Justification by Faith

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:11 is speaking about the Jews and the Gentiles.
Paul is saying that both Jews and Gentiles are under the law of sin.
He is saying that they do not understand God and what is right and wrong.
Open graves is expressing the evil that men tend toward...
Psalm 5:9 the enemies words cannot be trusted.

See verses 21 and 22 where this is made clear.
THERE IS NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile
FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT.

See verse 26....God will be just and will be the one who justifies those that have faith in Jesus.

First....those that have faith in Jesus...
Then...will be justified by God.

Nothing here about God choosing anyone....
but justifying those that have faith.

***********************************************************************


Psalm 65:4

1There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God,
And to You the vow will be performed.
2O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.

3Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.

4How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.


Who does God choose?
Please see verse 2:
God hears the prayers of men,
And to Him men come.

Once again proving that man is able to seek God.

It's unfortunate that you bring your theology to the verses,
instead of coming away with theology as the verses speak plainly.

Man naturally doesnt seek after God, nor understand God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[atpollard]

1 Chronicles 22:17-19 [NKJV]

17 David also commanded all the leaders of Israel to help Solomon his son, saying, 18 “Is not the LORD your God with you? And has He not given you rest on every side? For He has given the inhabitants of the land into my hand, and the land is subdued before the LORD and before His people. 19 Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God. Therefore arise and build the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD and the holy articles of God into the house that is to be built for the name of the LORD.”​

Here we have the PARAGRAPH (expressing a complete idea). So what then is the idea of this paragraph?

1. Is this paragraph about the natural desire of men to turn their hearts to God and seek Him?
2. Is this paragraph about building a permanent Temple to replace the Tabernacle?
3. Does this Paragraph have ANYTHING to do with SALVATION? If the Paragraph is not speaking to the IDEA of salvation, then is the sentence within the paragraph likely to be speaking to the idea of SALVATION?

If we do the same for Romans 3, we will discover that Paul is NOT talking about building a stone Temple to replace a fabric tabernacle. Thus comparing those sentences is to compare APPLES to ORANGES. No contradiction, just TWO DIFFERENT subjects/ideas.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is very true. I’ve noticed the fruit of embracing what you’ve accurately described as intellectually unsound. One of two outcomes develops. Either the Calvinist, when faced with the absurdity of the theology, jettisons all reasoning rendering himself brain dead when it comes to reason and matters of God (blind faith) or he embraces the cruelty of the theology and with time becomes what he readily believes what God is. This is how Calvin himself could burn opponents at the stake and feel fine with the arrangement.

Yes. I find it interesting that PAUL, in Romans 9:1 seems to love his fellow Jews more than God does!
Paul is trying to save them...
God destines some to hell for no reason.

Good points.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man naturally doesnt seek after God, nor understand God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Ok. This is it for me.
I don't even think you read my posts - which take time to write.
Au revoir.

 

[brightfame52]

Ok. This is it for me.
I don't even think you read my posts - which take time to write.
Au revoir.

Take care

 

[GodsGrace]

I would avoid comparing SINGLE VERSES divorced from their context.

We have "sentences" collected into "paragraphs" and paragraphs collected into "chapters" and chapters collected into "books" for a reason. Each BOOK is expressing a broad idea. Each CHAPTER is systematically building and developing that broad idea. Each PARAGRAPH is a brick used to construct that Chapter and interlocks with all the other paragraphs. Each SENTENCE is only a thought ... part of the greater expressed in the simple idea of the Paragraph.

To compare two THOUGHT from possibly unrelated IDEAS and proclaim that they are in conflict is to do an injustice to the WHOLE: The Paragraph, the Chapter, the Book and - ultimately - to all of God breathed scripture.

That is the hermaeneutic that I would use ...

I agree!
This is the only way to avoid conflict.
But, still, using the entire thought of the bible, we must still come to a conclusion.
And look, the conclusion is different for you than it is for me.

I find that by using the entire bible and what it teaches, I come out with the idea that it IS possible to seek after God.
I don't see anywhere that states that HE must make me able to seek Him (as the OP believes).

I'll leave it at that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Be careful there, you did not say "everyone without exception"!

You said "many".
You said "His flock".

Keep that up and people will start to whisper that YOU are reformed!

LOL
Jesus did die for everyone without exception.
But not everyone takes advantage of His atonement.

And God has a flock...
HOW one gets to be part of the flock is the question at hand.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[atpollard]

I'll leave it at that.

He can be challenging … and both he and I are reformed.
So I can only imagine the grinding of gears when attempting to interface with someone that is non-reformed.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus did die for everyone without exception.
But not everyone takes advantage of His atonement.

John Wesley would agree and Charles Spurgeon would disagree. Other than both being dead, they also share the common trait of having lead a LOT more people to Christ than you and I combined.

So ultimately, being RIGHT is less important than being faithful to what He has called us to.

 

[GodsGrace]

John Wesley would agree and Charles Spurgeon would disagree. Other than both being dead, they also share the common trait of having lead a LOT more people to Christ than you and I combined.

So ultimately, being RIGHT is less important than being faithful to what He has called us to.

It's not that I want to be right.
Although of course I am. Hee hee.
I just hate to think that some might be waiting for God to call them instead of seeking Him.
That's it in a nutshell.

 

[GodsGrace]

He can be challenging … and both he and I are reformed.
So I can only imagine the grinding of gears when attempting to interface with someone that is non-reformed.

The grinding of gears is on me!
I need a break from him every now and then.


He makes my head hurt.

 

[Iconoclast]

LOL
Jesus did die for everyone without exception.
But not everyone takes advantage of His atonement.

And God has a flock...
HOW one gets to be part of the flock is the question at hand.

I'll leave it at that.

It seems as if you are constantly departing from truth, we can leave it at that

 

[Highway54]

Do you not understand that man sinned in Adam after creation, and man died to God ? God warned Man in Adam Gen 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So now men in Adam are dead Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

It seems you are not aware that men are born dead sinners now. I will teach you if you willing to learn, these are basic things friend.

Yes sir I understand that, what led you to believe I thought otherwise?