Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[brightfame52]

You testify to matters not in evidence.

They are in evidence to God.

 

[jerry63935]

The only intolerance I saw was jerry63935 definitely not a Calvinist

no sir i am not what is it i am to have tolerance on ?

 

[GodsGrace]

When a person doesn’t apply the ideas or explanations they have in their head to real life (the scientific method,) they’re likely to fall into false thinking. An example is the question at the beginning. If we substitute any number of morally good nouns or endeavors replacing “God” in the sentence, the answer is so obvious we’d laugh at the question.

Does man the natural
ability to seek understanding children?
Does man have the natural ability to seek to help others?
Does man have the natural ability to seek to love their children?

Very good Dorothy!

 

[GodsGrace]

I would bet that most if not all of those Calvinists that posted were what we could call amateurs. A Calvinist seminary professor or pastor does not have time to come on these forums. You are reading posts from people who have read a few Calvinist books and now think they are experts - I probably fit in that category. I am a High School dropout.

If you want to see real life fruit of Calvinism, you would need to go to a Calvinist Church and observe how those people live in real life.

Like I said before, any Atheist coming here and observing the bickering going on, not only between Calvinist and non-Calvinist, but those bickering about baptism, end times (your preterism), women pastors, and a thousand other things, would not want to have anything to do with it.

I doubt you know or understand as much as you think you do.
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

You think a Calvinist should be able to tell you what God has done from the beginning to the end.
We can only tell your what He has revealed in the pages of Scripture, not every detail of the how and why.

Your last sentence is also true of the JWs.
They aren't even considered to be Christian.
Also, many atheists live really good lives - some better than some professing Christian.
I wouldn't let this be the yardstick to the truth.

 

[jerry63935]

many atheists live really good lives

its not about living a good life they would be works. its about Christ in us the hope of Glory

 

[GodsGrace]

its not about living a good life they would be works. its about Christ in us the hope of Glory

I said that's should not be the yardstick.
However, let's please stop saying that WORKS is a bad word and that somehow they go against what Jesus taught.

All Jesus taught was good works.
Works are good.
They are required to promote the Kingdom of God on earth.

We do need to believe in God of course.

 

[jerry63935]

let's please stop saying that WORKS is a bad word

i never said it was a bad word nor used it in that manner however being a good person is not what makes a good Christian.. any works we do must be motivated by God . if works were to save us then the j.w would make it

 

[GodsGrace]

i never said it was a bad word nor used it in that manner however being a good person is not what makes a good Christian.. any works we do must be motivated by God . if works were to save us then the j.w would make it

How do we know for sure they won't make it?
I believe that a good Christian should be a good person.
What else could distinguish us from non-believers?

Any good work is pleasing to God.
I do believe that our good works are motivated by God.

Which begs the question, why do non-believers do good works?
Maybe it's just something that God wills man to do and we obey?

I mean, I think anything good in us is motivated by God.

 

[jerry63935]

How do we know for sure they won't make it?
I believe that a good Christian should be a good person.
What else could distinguish us from non-believers?

Any good work is pleasing to God.
I do believe that our good works are motivated by God.

Which begs the question, why do non-believers do good works?
Maybe it's just something that God wills man to do and we obey?

I mean, I think anything good in us is motivated by God.

if you want to believe in the work based religion of the j.w be my guest . your not even attempting to read what i say . Jesus said ye must be born again not be a good person .the only good in us is Christ Jesus . other than that i am done as per J.W they dont have a plan of salvation they have a different Bible . to become a j.w you have to take classes . saved BYGRACE through faith NOT of Works .if it was works we would have no need for Jesus

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The only intolerance I saw was jerry63935 definitely not a Calvinist responding to brightfame52.

Wow! A poster presents his view and ends the discussion with PERIOD meaning NO FURTHER DISCUSSION ALLOWED and you don’t see intolerance.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They are in evidence to God.

No, they aren’t. Definitely.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But you don't ask real questions. You expect me to answer something like "if God is omnipotent, then can He make a rock so big He can't lift it."

Yes I did. I’ll repeat it. Why does God choose some to go to hell before they were born? That’s a real question and it’s not a trick one.

There is your unanswerable question. I can only tells you what the Bible says. The Bible never says "I chose some for Hell for this reason, and then gives the answer. It never says He chooses anybody for Hell. The closest it gets is:

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

That was said of people living OBVIOUSLY making evil decisions such that God was at the moment (not in the future) enduring. He didn’t select them for such before they were born. There is no verse that says God selected some for heaven/hell before birth so that he could demonstrate wrath.

Proverbs 16:4 in different translations.
The Message
God made everything with a place and purpose; even the wicked are included—but for judgment.
New American Standard Bible 1995
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
King James Version
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Who are the wicked? Those who DO evil. Genesis says repeatedly that all that God made was good or very good. He didn’t make any evil. Others did that. But he will execute justice so that comforts us. The evil ones will not escape.

It appears that God has prepared some for destruction to show His power and make His wrath known.

No, that’s not what it says. Genesis says what God made is good. He made a destination for those who chose evil but he didn’t make them choose evil.

Tell me that is not an answer.
I know you want a 500 page dissertation of all the metaphysical, mechanical and psychological explanations, but nobody can give that to you.

Those who understand God do not need a dissertation. Look at the words of Jesus. No dissertation, just clear understanding of the ways of God.

I do appreciate your trying to answer, although you admit scripture has none. (answering why God chose some for hell as calvinists believe) It has none because no one who wrote the Bible believed the calvinist precepts.

 

[jerry63935]

Why does God choose some to go to hell before they were born?

where does it say that in the Bible?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

where does it say that in the Bible?

It doesn’t. But calvinist believe it does. Well, to be exact, they’ll say God kindly and mercifully chooses some for heaven ignoring the fact that this means He chooses others for hell.

 

[jerry63935]

It doesn’t. But calvinist believe it does. Well, to be exact, they’ll say God kindly and mercifully chooses some for heaven ignoring the fact that this means He chooses others for hell.

the reason i say i been through all this before .. that is reason i say last time i rejoined carm forum i disagreed with a Calvinist post and i had about 3 or 4 post introducing me to though shalt not question us.. i soon got feed up told several of the want to be hot shot members .exactly what i thought my tolerance level only goes so far. i dont buy into the reformed theology . john MacArthur uses the term strange fire (anything outside Calvinism } any way its all Good i just wait for something new.

 

[Whatever]

Yes I did. I’ll repeat it. Why does God choose some to go to hell before they were born? That’s a real question and it’s not a trick one.

Okay, then if you are so in tune with God's ways, tell me
1. Why God created the universe in the first place.
2. What was God doing before that

Anybody in tune with God's ways should know.

There is no verse that says God selected some for heaven/hell before birth so that he could demonstrate wrath.

So, you are going to be a literalist, not believing anything not stated directly in the Bible. Then I guess you reject the Trinity. I guess you reject women taking communion - it's never stated, only 13 men there when it was inaugurated.

Genesis says repeatedly that all that God made was good or very good. He didn’t make any evil. Others did that.

So, there are others more powerful than God? In the very good Garden, what powerful person made the lying serpent to tempt Eve to eat from the tree?

 

[Whatever]

they’ll say God kindly and mercifully chooses some for heaven ignoring the fact that this means He chooses others for hell.

I don't myself ignore that fact. I simply have faith that whatever God does is holy and just, even if I cannot understand it. I believe both my mother and father were lost. I was by their bedside when they died. All those ideas you bring up about their being arbitrarily chosen to perish went through my mind. But in the end, I just decided that I need to trust what I see the Bible saying, and not to twist it to satisfy my fallible limited brain vs God's infinite, eternal wisdom.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Okay, then if you are so in tune with God's ways, tell me
1. Why God created the universe in the first place.

God created the world for the same reason (only expanded) why any artist creates that which is beautiful. God wanted a beautiful, good world with amazing living creatures who live and love and give and experience joy, among other reasons.

2. What was God doing before that

I’ve never asked that question. Why would it concern me? There’s probably no place in my
mind to understand that answer.

Anybody in tune with God's ways should know.

I know the first.

So, you are going to be a literalist, not believing anything not stated directly in the Bible. Then I guess you reject the Trinity. I guess you reject women taking communion - it's never stated, only 13 men there when it was inaugurated.

I am not. But I know God is very good and very judge as well as merciful same as you believe He is. He does nothing unjust nor cruel. Any charge that He is or does is false. You are right to believe He is as you describe.

So, there are others more powerful than God?

No

In the very good Garden, what powerful person made the lying serpent to tempt Eve to eat from the tree?

It doesn’t take much power to control one’s own mouth. One doesn’t need to be stronger than God to speak what one chooses. Satan chose his direction. Didn’t take power. He is a free moral agent.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't myself ignore that fact. I simply have faith that whatever God does is holy and just, even if I cannot understand it. I believe both my mother and father were lost. I was by their bedside when they died. All those ideas you bring up about their being arbitrarily chosen to perish went through my mind. But in the end, I just decided that I need to trust what I see the Bible saying, and not to twist it to satisfy my fallible limited brain vs God's infinite, eternal wisdom.

Thank you for that honest answer. I am impressed. Bright is not as honest as you are.

I’d rather you be a Calvinist than an atheist so I call you a part of the same family I’m a part of.

You can, of course, accept never understanding God. I hungered to understand Him and made choices in that pursuit. It has been rewarded. I understand God. I know His ways. They are marvelously logical as well as just and merciful. I don’t say that from faith. I say it from sure knowledge based upon observation and other input.

 

[Whatever]

I understand God. I know His ways. They are marvelously logical as well as just and merciful. I don’t say that from faith. I say it from sure knowledge based upon observation and other input.

Well then answer the question, Why did God create the cosmos? That would certainly be part of His ways.