Bible Study Does the Bible communicate a young age of the Earth, Yes or No?

[Sparkey]

I suppose this is where we could call on "experts" and all that but I don't think I want to start that kind of thing again.

Instead, I'd like to take a look for ourselves. I've mentioned the free online Hebrew Interlinear before. It's not my "favorite" translation and I'll assume that readers of the Bible Study forum know the differences between highly accurate "interlinear" translations and other translations already. Interlinear texts repeat the same text in multiple lines and strive to line up each original word with exact word/phrases directly underneath. This one uses the Hebrew original, a transliterated word and underneath English.

online Hebrew Interlinear Bible © 2008 Scripture4all Foundation - www.scripture4all.org

• A cardinal number tells "how many." Cardinal numbers are also known as "counting numbers," because they show quantity.
• Ordinal numbers tell the order of things in a set—first, second, third, etc. Ordinal numbers do not show quantity. They only show rank or position.

 

[chessman]

I suppose this is where we could call on "experts" and all that but I don't think I want to start that kind of thing again.

Instead, I'd like to take a look for ourselves.

It doesn't take an expert to see the text says one day not first day, correct?

 

[felix]

It doesn't take an expert to see the text says one day not first day, correct?

• Exod 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
• Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Q: If God rested on 7th day, what is day one then?
A: First day

It is God Himself said that He Himself created the Heavens and the earth in 6 days. It only depends on if you truly believe Him or not.

• Num 14:34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, [namely] forty years, and you shall know My rejection.
• Jer 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation [and] an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

God not only know what a day is, but also knows what a year means.

Q: How illiterate is God in knowing what a day is?
A: Day is His own definition. He defined it.

Hence, the 7 days of creation are literal. However, the first 4 days may or may not represent 24 hours since neither sun nor stars were not created. The 24 hrs is calculated based on the rotation of the earth by itself having day and night.

On the 4th day:
Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

God created the sun, the stars and celestial bodies on the 4th day and then He allowed man to use them for signs and seasons, and for days and years. So, we are technically allowed by God Himself to use 24 hrs only from the 4th day.

 

[westtexas]

It doesn't take an expert to see the text says one day not first day, correct?

Gen. 1:5--God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (ESV)

Gen. 1:5--God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day. (NIV)

Gen. 1:5--And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (KJV)

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It doesn't take an expert to see the text says one day not first day, correct?

Gen. 1:5--God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (ESV)

Gen. 1:5--God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day. (NIV)

Gen. 1:5--And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (KJV)

Chessman: You're arguing a viewpoint by making a statement you didn't even bother to confirm yourself before posting? How accurate or well-informed can we expect the rest of your argument to be?

 

[chessman]

Chessman: You're arguing a viewpoint by making a statement you didn't even bother to confirm yourself before posting? How accurate or well-informed can we expect the rest of your argument to be?

Yes i did confirm it. The original Hebrew says one day and most ( but not all) translations have first day.

Genesis 1:5 (AMP) And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Genesis 1:5 (ASV) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Genesis 1:5 ( CJB) God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. So there was evening, and there was morning, one day.

...

But more importantly the Hebrew is one day, not first. Check it out:

http://interlinearbible.org/genesis/1-5.htm

I appreciate you replying and pointing out what you thought was my error. However, since it's not in error shouldn't you correct your post?

 

[reba]

The Holy Scriptures will be treated as such. Zero tolerance for breaks of the ToS. The OP will set the tone of the thread/study. We are expecting members to be aware of the fine line between discussion and argument. Please feel free to open a new thread and avoid the battle. Bible Study is a no debate forum, Moderator

 

[Grazer]

I highly recommend reading 7 Days that divide the world by John Lennox.

 

[chessman]

Another well thought out and reasoned treatment of the subject, in my opinion, is; In The Beginning ... We Misunderstood, Johnny Miller, John Soden.

 

[Sparkey]

Yes i did confirm it. The original Hebrew says one day and most ( but not all) translations have first day.
...
But more importantly the Hebrew is one day, not first. Check it out:

http://interlinearbible.org/genesis/1-5.htm

...

Thank you so much, for the "Genesis 1:5 >> Genesis 1 Biblos Interlinear Bible" link. That is good to know because it makes it easy to share.

And you are correct. Genesis says "day one" using a Cardinal number. The other references use Ordinals (showing order, as in "Day Second, Day Third" and etc.). That's what some experts point to when they refer to the distinct character of these uses of the word "yom" or "yown". That's what sets them aside as rather unique. Not just that they are used in conjunction with the terms "evening and morning" but also, and in addition to that, they are combined with ordinal and cardinal numbers. No other place that I know of, not in all of the 2000+ uses of the word "yom" or "yown" do we see that.


~Sparrow

Just to let you know, chessman, I'm hoping to "jump ship" soon and would like to continue to discuss this with you, while conforming my thoughts to what I see as "your side" of the discussion. It's a Berean, "think outside the box" thing and I hope it proves productive. Mid-Term Exams are calling me away, but this also gives me time to shift gears and attempt to formulate my thoughts and replies here. It is my attempt at following what I like to think of as the "Rebuked Job" thought.

 

[westtexas]

But more importantly the Hebrew is one day, not first. Check it out:

http://interlinearbible.org/genesis/1-5.htm

Chessman, I'm trying to understand your point of view and your correlation between Day One and Day Two. http://interlinearbible.org/genesis/1-8.htm
This is from the link you provided and you"ll see it calls Day Two "the second day." Would you not agree that if Day Two is the second day, that Day One is the first day? You feel that the NIV, KJV, etc. are incorrect in their translation of the "first day"? Sparrow has done a good job explaining the difference between cardinal numbers and ordinal numbers and I'm not sure you'll find any Hebrew translator who would disagree. I'd like to hear your connection between "one day" (if you feel the first day is incorrect) and the second day. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[chessman]

Chessman, I'm trying to understand your point of view and your correlation between Day One and Day Two.

My point is that when YEC say that Yowm has to be 24 hour days because nowhere else in Scripture does Yowm mean anything different than 24 hours when used with ordinals and evening and morning together, it's not true to the Text.

 

[Sparkey]

My point is that when YEC say that Yowm has to be 24 hour days because nowhere else in Scripture does Yowm mean anything different than 24 hours when used with ordinals and evening and morning together, it's not true to the Text.

Who has specifically said this? I have not. I've spoken about experts in the Hebrew language (actually, Jewish experts in the field) who have made that observation. Not sure you can persuade me to go off subject like that, I'm a member of the YEC forum here, but that, as you will see later, does not always mean what you think it means.

We are not saying "Has to be" or "Must mean," (at least, I'm not). Those are conclusive arguments and they go contrary to the spirit of what we are doing here. Maybe I'm just being sensitive here because "YEC" sounds like yech? No, it is because I do not wish to be misrepresented by an incorrect characterization. With another attempt at clarity, what I've stated is that when the experts look at the usage of the term, they consider its context, how it was used, what the basic meaning is, where is it used (concerning what subjects) and then using that information, they try to understand why it was used in that manner. Ultimately "Day" is a "when". We're looking at what that may mean and under what circumstances. Not jumping to conclusion and making ultimate positional statements such as, "When YEC say... they are being untrue..." As you know, that form of debate is not productive.

Mid-Term exam time, I'll be back later guys.

 

[westtexas]

My point is that when YEC say that Yowm has to be 24 hour days because nowhere else in Scripture does Yowm mean anything different than 24 hours when used with ordinals and evening and morning together, it's not true to the Text.

I guess I didn't clarify my question very well. An explanation of cardinal and ordinal numbers has been given in past posts. You list the NIV and the ESV commentaries as "experts" when you described telescoping in Genesis 5 yet when used in conjunction with cardinal and ordinal numbers their text translation of the "first day" is wrong? Day One, Day Two, First Day, Second Day-we can talk about 24 hrs later-I'm asking for an explanation or a link as to your assertion that the "first day" is an incorrect translation.

 

[chessman]

I'm asking for an explanation or a link as to your assertion that the "first day" is an incorrect translation.

http://interlinearbible.org/genesis/1-5.htm

 

[Sparkey]

JewishEncyclopedia.com, the unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. This website contains the complete contents of the 12-volume Jewish Encyclopedia, which was originally published between 1901-1906. The Jewish Encyclopedia, which recently became part of the public domain, contains over 15,000 articles and illustrations.

This online version contains the unedited contents of the original encyclopedia. Since the original work was completed almost 100 years ago, it does not cover a significant portion of modern Jewish History (e.g., the creation of Israel, the Holocaust, etc.). However, it does contain an incredible amount of information that is remarkably relevant today.

What does the J.E. say about the word "YOM"?

DAY (Hebrew, "yom"):

In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17).

The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day.

Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time.

The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar).

"The day" denotes: (a) Day of the Lord; (b) the Day of Atonement; (c) the treatise of the Mishnah that contains the laws concerning the Day of Atonement (See Yoma and Sabbath).

Except when accompanied with the definite article "The", a day is a day. When we see the term "The Day" it means one of three things (per the above quote). The Jewish Encyclopedia comes right out and says that it means a day. They were not thinking about the debate centered on the age of the earth when they wrote and compiled their works back in 1901-1906. The Jewish Encyclopedia seems a neutral source to me.

 

[Sparkey]

The Bible Encyclopedia is hosted at ChristianAnswers.net.
I looked up "Day" there just now. They didn't mention the age of the earth at all. Here is what they did say (in part):

The division of the day by hours is first mentioned in Dan. 3:6, 15; 4:19; 5:5. This system of time-keeping was borrowed from the Chaldeans. Sunrise to sunset was divided into 12 hours, and the hours were of variable length depending on the length of sunlight (John 11:9).

The word “day” can sometimes signify an indefinite time (Gen. 2:4; Isa. 22:5; Hebrews 3:8, etc.). In Job 3:1 it indicates a birthday, and in Isa. 2:12, Acts 17:31, and 2 Tim. 1:18, the great day of final judgment.

Although the Hebrew word for day (yom) can have several different meanings. The meaning in the Bible is always clear when read in context. The first reference to “day” in the Bible is in the context of a full rotation of the Earth, a full cycle of light and dark, “And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day” (NASV, see Genesis One).

When the word “day” (yom) is used with a number, such as day one, day two, etc., it always refers to a literal, 24 hour type day. This is true 100% of the time. This holds true all 359 times that “day” is used with an ordinal modifier (number) outside of Genesis chapter 1.

There is no biblical indication that “day” is used differently in the beginning chapter of Genesis than it is throughout the rest of the book, or the rest of the Old Testament.

The “days” in Genesis 1 are always used specifically in connection with the words “evening and morning.” This phrase is used with “day” 38 times in the Old Testament, not counting Genesis chapter 1. Each time, without exception, the phrase refers to a normal 24 hour type day. It is also important to note that this phrase is never used in the Old Testament in a manner which is obviously metaphoric.

I assume this is what you meant when you made your comment about

that when YEC say that Yowm has to be 24 hour days because nowhere else in Scripture does Yowm mean anything different than 24 hours when used with ordinals and evening and morning together, it's not true to the Text.

I'd have to agree with you that this was said even if I had not seen it before. Does that mean it must have been said by a Young Earth Creationist? That's your conclusion, not mine. I agree with both Encyclopedic references that I've provided, because Encyclopedia One (Jewish) just states every day common sense. The Encyclopedia Second (Bible) goes deeper into the subject and gives a more complete answer. Even though I agree with Encyclopedia 2nd, you will see that I don't fit conveniently into the category of Young Earth Creationist.

Quick question for ya: Which did I post first? Encyclopedia one or Encyclopedia 2nd? See what I did there?

The above quote(s) is/are not my statement(s) but I don't know how to approach it otherwise. The BE seems to be saying that outside of Genesis, the word "day" or "yom" can be found 359 times in conjunction with an "ordinal" (showing order, as in 2nd, 3rd). It goes on to say that there are 38 times when it is used in conjunction with the phrase "evening and the morning," as in "the evening and the morning and "yom," showing duration. One time would disprove what they say. I think you may have found one that could squeeze in here - something about, "In the Days of King..." and later, in the general proximity there was said something about an evening? But the shoe-horn method doesn't work for me.

I take your recent point about "day one" not saying (in Gen 1:8) "day first" or "evening and the morning were the first day" to mean that this is a clue that "day one" could mean something other than the subsequent 6 uses of the word "day"? Is this where you point when you say YEC's are not being true to the text? You see something different when a Cardinal number is used? Ordinal numbers follow this reference, we can see that, but tell me more about what you see as the meaning behind the text, please. What are your thoughts here?

 

[Sparkey]

I've found this article in an archive. It is titled,

"Authenticating The "Day-Age" Theory.​

A Critique of Mark Van Bebber and Paul S. Taylor's article, "Is The Bible Clear About The Age of the Earth and Universe?" and a logical and systematic defense of the "day-age" theory. (Author unknown)

Here's the part that deals with the current aspect of our subject (a counter-point view to what I've quoted before):

Preface:

Perhaps the most controversial and dividing aspect of the creation account between fellow Christians is the length of the "days" in Genesis 1. Many Young Earth Creationists like Bebber and Taylor assert that the "days" of Genesis must be interpreted as twenty-four hour periods and that the Bible is emphatically clear on this point. Old Earth Creationists like Dr. Hugh Ross assert that the "days" of creation are long epochs of undetermined length. I will be defending the day-age theory and critiquing Bebber and Taylor's view. I will not be discussing whether Genesis 1 must be understood as literal and chronological or whether it can be viewed theologically where "the framework of the week of creation is an artistic one designed to convey primarily theological, rather than purely scientific, information." Many creation models have been espoused. I will simply be addressing (under the assumption of a literal and chronological reading of the text) whether the "days" of creation can be understood literally as epochs or long periods of time.

Citation of the view he will critique
Some of Bebber and Taylor's Reasons For Dismissing the Day-Age Theory

1. The Hebrew word for day (yom) can have several different meanings. The meaning is always clear when read in context.
2. The first reference to "day" in the creation account is in the context of a 24 hour cycle of light and dark, "And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day" (NASV, see Genesis One).
3. When the word "day" is used with a number, such as day one, day two, etc., it always refers to a literal, 24 hour type day. This is true 100% of the time. This holds true all 359 times that "day" is used with an ordinal modifier (number) outside of Genesis chapter 1.
4. There is no Biblical indication that "day" is used differently in the beginning chapter of Genesis than it is throughout the rest of the book, or the rest of the Old Testament.
5. Exodus 20:11. This passage, written in stone by the finger of God Himself, states, "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day." God, the only witness to the creation events, testifies that all things were created within a literal six day period.

The author continues:

Also, its interesting to note Bebber and Taylor's explanation of the day-age theory's popularity given that scripture is clear and decisive on this issue in their opinion:

"Ultimately, whether one accepts this information or not probably depends more upon their interpretation of science than of the scriptures. For without the consideration of modern scientific theories of the age of the universe, there can be little reason to question the clear communication of the Bible."

 

[Sparkey]

I've found this article in an archive. It is titled,
CONTINUED:

"Authenticating The "Day-Age" Theory.​

A Critique of Mark Van Bebber and Paul S. Taylor's article, "Is The Bible Clear About The Age of the Earth and Universe?" and a logical and systematic defense of the "day-age" theory. (Author unknown)

Here's the part that begins to refute the YEC argument:

Their argument may seem convincing but lets see how it holds up under careful scrutinization.


1. The Hebrew word for day (yom) can have several different meanings. The meaning is always clear when read in context.


Bebber and Taylor accurately concede the Hebrew word for day (yown) has more than one meaning. It logically follows that each one of these meanings when used is a literal translation of the word. So if yown can mean "twenty-four hours"or an "unspecified duration of time" then it would seem both Bebber and Taylor's twenty-four hour view and the day-age theory advocated chiefly by Dr. Ross' are both LITERAL interpretations of the text. The Young Earth Old Earth debate does not center around whether one interprets the "days" figuratively or literally. That is an important fact. Its literal vs. literal. Not literal vs. figurative.

The New International Version Bible Dictionary disagrees with Bebber and Taylor's statement that the meaning is always clear when read in its proper context:

"The length of the creative days of Genesis 1 is not stated in the Bible. The Hebrew word "day" may mean a period of light between two periods of darkness, a period of light together with the preceding period of darkness, or a long period of time. All three usages occur often in the Bible. No one of them is exactly twenty-four hours, though the second one is near it. There is no indisputable indication as to which of the three is meant. The Bible gives no specific statement as to how long ago matter was created, how long ago the first day of creation began, or when the sixth day ended."

It should also be noted that there is an unusual syntax in the sentences enumerating the creation days that also appears to disagree with Bebber and Taylor's statement. "Looking at the word-for-word translation of the Hebrew text, one finds this phraseology: "and was evening and was morning day X." The New International Version phrases the time markers this way: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the Xth day." The word arrangement is clearly a departure from simple and ordinary expression. It creates an ambiguity. If "day X" were intended as the noun complement for the one evening and morning together, the linking verb should appear just once, in plural form (as the King James Version renders it): "And the evening and the morning were the Xth day." We would expect the literal Hebrew to say, "and were evening and morning day X." But it does not. This syntactic ambiguity does not constitute a proof. However, it does suggest that "day" here is to be taken in some unusual manner."

The author continues, "I think a more accurate assessment of the Biblical use of yowm is to say that the majority of the time the intended meaning is clear from the context rather than saying EVERY time."

 

[Sparkey]

I've found this article in an archive. It is titled,
CONTINUED:

"Authenticating The "Day-Age" Theory.​

A Critique of Mark Van Bebber and Paul S. Taylor's article, "Is The Bible Clear About The Age of the Earth and Universe?" and a logical and systematic defense of the "day-age" theory. (Author unknown)

Here's the "meat" of the critique:

2. The first reference to "day" in the creation account is in the context of a 24 hour cycle of light and dark, "And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day" (NASV, see Genesis One).

The first reference to "day" in the creation account appears in verse five.

"Genesis 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day."

As quoted earlier, this first reference along with the other enumerations has an unusual syntax to it. If it was God's intention to point out clear 24-hour creation days one would expect to find different wording in the text. Also, it is important to delve into the Hebrew behind "evening" and "morning" as well. The Hebrew word ereb, translated evening also means "sunset," "night" or "ending of the day." The Hebrew word boqer, translated morning, also means "sunrise," "coming of light," "beginning of the day," or "dawning," with possible metaphoric usage." In other words, evening and morning refer to the beginning and ending components of "day," however it is used. For example, "in my grandfather's day" refers to my grandfather's lifetime. So the morning and evening of his day would be his youth and old age.'

3. When the word "day" is used with a number, such as day one, day two, etc., it always refers to a literal, 24 hour type day. This is true 100% of the time. This holds true all 359 times that "day" is used with an ordinal modifier (number) outside of Genesis chapter 1.

One possible exception to this might lie in the book of Hosea. For hundreds of years some Bible commentators have stated that the "days" in Hosea 6:2 refer to a year, years, thousand years or possibly more. 5 Hosea 6:2 reads: "After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence." If these commentators are accurate in their assessment this then becomes a clear cut example of what Bebber and Taylor say does not exist.

Bebber and Taylor's argument is true for days of human activity but not necessarily for days of Divine activity. Another relevant point is that nowhere apart from Genesis 1 does the Bible have an opportunity of enumerating sequential epochs. And most importantly, despite the statistics, there is no rule of Hebrew Grammar that requires yowm to refer only to a 24-hour period when an ordinal is attached.

Sparrow replies, "Personally, I like the smooth aspect of this part of his the refutation, "if these commentators are accurate... [then] this becomes... a clear cut example...

It may or may not be a clear-cut example, for instance it may not be clear that what the commentators are saying is accurate, but certainly it is clear that many who offer honest critiques are willing to go to great lengths. And why not? Those they oppose are also willing to do the same.