O
Oscar3
Guest
Dave... said:
This is what I have been saying...
Thanks dave
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Does the human soul consciously exist following death
- Thread starter jgredline
- Start date
This is what I have been saying...
Thanks dave
Drew
Member
Dave... said:
James 2:26 says:
"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead"
This text is indeed consistent with Dave's assertion but it is, of course, also entirely consistent with the view that there is no immortal soul or spirit. If you read CP_Mikes posts about the meaning of the word spirit, you will see that the James text does not preferentially support the notion of an immortal soul.
J
Jay T
Guest
You don't mind if I believe the Bible do you .......Dave... said:
Eccl. 9:5 " For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun".
Drew
Member
Phillipians 1:23 states:
"I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far".
Does this support the claim that "the soul of the redeemed passes immediately into the presence of Christ" to the exclusion of a view that such a transition is not immediate?
No it does not. As has been pointed out numerous times, there is no reason that this text cannot be seen as describing the state of affairs from a first person experiential perspective. For a believer who dies and enters some kind of "sleep" state, the experience for them is indeed immediate - but it is not factually immediate.
Now I am not saying this text necessarily supports the view that the believing dead do not immediately go to be in God's presence.
It is basically neutral and is really not evidence in favour of either position. It is commonly used by traditionalists without an explanation of the why the first person experiential reading should be discounted.
"I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far".
Does this support the claim that "the soul of the redeemed passes immediately into the presence of Christ" to the exclusion of a view that such a transition is not immediate?
No it does not. As has been pointed out numerous times, there is no reason that this text cannot be seen as describing the state of affairs from a first person experiential perspective. For a believer who dies and enters some kind of "sleep" state, the experience for them is indeed immediate - but it is not factually immediate.
Now I am not saying this text necessarily supports the view that the believing dead do not immediately go to be in God's presence.
It is basically neutral and is really not evidence in favour of either position. It is commonly used by traditionalists without an explanation of the why the first person experiential reading should be discounted.
Hi Drew. Keep in mind that while it does say that the body without the spirit is dead, what it does not say is that the spirit without the body is dead.
For that reason, your claim...
...cannot be found in the passage we are speaking of without reading more into it than what it says.
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
People automatically assume the immortality of the soul when reading Philippians 1:21-23. Drew is right. Nowhere can this support it without unproven assumptions. Paul is saying that to depart and be with Christ is far better.
This merely states an opinion not an immediate transition. If it were speaking of an immediate transition it would be in the resurrection body because nowhere does Paul speak of an immortal soul going bodiless to heaven. Instead Paul speaks that only the resurrection body will allow us to enter heaven.
So unless you want to read a 'resurrection body' into this verse, you CANNOT glean an 'immortal soul' from it.
It is nothing but gratuitous assumption to read 'going to heaven immediately at death' in this verse when not only the context doesn't support it, but the rest of Paul's writings completely contradict it.
This merely states an opinion not an immediate transition. If it were speaking of an immediate transition it would be in the resurrection body because nowhere does Paul speak of an immortal soul going bodiless to heaven. Instead Paul speaks that only the resurrection body will allow us to enter heaven.
So unless you want to read a 'resurrection body' into this verse, you CANNOT glean an 'immortal soul' from it.
It is nothing but gratuitous assumption to read 'going to heaven immediately at death' in this verse when not only the context doesn't support it, but the rest of Paul's writings completely contradict it.
C
CP_Mike
Guest
Solo said:
Examples?
Dave... said:
Dave, really look at the language of the last few verses of chapter 4 and then verses 1-5. Paul is talking about receiving an immortal body, not going to heaven as an imperishable soul. Nowhere is the word for 'soul' even used in this passage.
Then go and compare it with 1 Corinthians 15 and you will see that to be 'present with the Lord' means to put on the immortal body at the resurrection. It even uses the exact same language!
"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan. being burdened not for that we would be unclothed but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up in life - 2 Cor 5:4
"So when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying, death is swallowed up in victory' - 1 Cor 15:54
This has to be one of the most misused and incorrectly translated verses in the scripture. It is so tiring to see peopole throw this verse out willy-nilly claiming that it supports their views with no hint of explanation but that everyone is supposed to accept it based on assumption and no proof.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?â€Â
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?â€Â
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Drew
Member
What are we being asked to believe here - that "souls" refers to immaterial entities? If so, how is that entities are all crammed under an altar? Or worse yet, that such immaterial entities are given robes - how does an immaterial soul wear a robe? The text seems to self-destruct if such a view of the soul is taken here.Dave... said:
Once again, there is nothing about such a text that supports the existence of disembodied souls. This belief is brough to the text, not deduced from it.
If one gives the old head a good shake and opens the mind to the possibility that a "soul" here refers to the human person as a whole, the text makes perfect sense as an allegory.
I do not see how this text supports the notion of an immaterial soul that survives physical death.
J
Jay T
Guest
Satan wants the Christian world to accept his 'Immortal Soul Doctrine"......"Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4).
Never mind that God said: Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die".
Never mind that God said: Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die".
J
Jay T
Guest
Said Jesus: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life." John 3:36.
QUESTION: Did you get it ?
ONLY those who have Jesus have everlasting life........SO....the opposite of that is, everlasting death, to those who DO NOT have Jesus Christ, therefore, tthere cannot be....an immortal sinner, who burns in hell forever !
Every man may come into possession of this priceless blessing if he will comply with the conditions. All "who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality," will receive "eternal life." Romans 2:7.
The only one who promised Adam life in disobedience was the great deceiver. And the declaration of the serpent to Eve in Eden--"Ye shall not surely die"--was the first sermon ever preached upon the immortality of the soul.
Yet this declaration, resting solely upon the authority of Satan, is echoed from the pulpits of Christendom and is received by the majority of mankind as readily as it was received by our first parents.
The divine sentence, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20), is made to mean: The soul that sinneth, it shall not die, but live eternally.
We cannot but wonder at the strange infatuation which renders men so credulous concerning the words of Satan and so unbelieving in regard to the words of God.
QUESTION: Did you get it ?
ONLY those who have Jesus have everlasting life........SO....the opposite of that is, everlasting death, to those who DO NOT have Jesus Christ, therefore, tthere cannot be....an immortal sinner, who burns in hell forever !
Every man may come into possession of this priceless blessing if he will comply with the conditions. All "who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality," will receive "eternal life." Romans 2:7.
The only one who promised Adam life in disobedience was the great deceiver. And the declaration of the serpent to Eve in Eden--"Ye shall not surely die"--was the first sermon ever preached upon the immortality of the soul.
Yet this declaration, resting solely upon the authority of Satan, is echoed from the pulpits of Christendom and is received by the majority of mankind as readily as it was received by our first parents.
The divine sentence, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20), is made to mean: The soul that sinneth, it shall not die, but live eternally.
We cannot but wonder at the strange infatuation which renders men so credulous concerning the words of Satan and so unbelieving in regard to the words of God.
C
CP_Mike
Guest
Jay T said:
Nor can people come up with anything better than "..are not backed up by the word of God.." without examples, nor the word of God!
"Death
We teach that physical death involves no loss of our immaterial consciousness (Revelation 6:9-11), that there is a separation of soul and body (James 2:26), that the soul of the redeemed passes immediately into the presence of Christ (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23), and that, for the redeemed, such separation will continue until the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) which initiated the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6), when our soul and body will be reunited to be glorified forever with our Lord (1 Corinthians 15:35-44, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54; Philippians 3:21). Until that time, the souls of the redeemed in Christ remain in joyful fellowship with our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8).
We teach the bodily resurrection of all men, the saved to eternal life (John 6:39; Romans 8:10-11, Romans 8:19-23;2 Corinthians 4:14), and the unsaved to judgement and everlasting punishment (Daniel 12:2; John 5:29; Revelation 20:13-15).
We teach that the souls of the unsaved at death are kept under punishment until the second resurrection (Luke 16:19-26; Revelation 20:13-15), when the soul and the resurrection body will be united (John 5:28-29). They shall then appear at the Great White Thrown judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and shall be cast into hell, the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41-46), cut off from the of God forever (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 25:41-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)." Macarthur.
J
Jay T
Guest
Question: How does the soul separate fro the Body, when it is part of the Body ?
In other words, if the body is separate from the body, there is no such thing as a soul !
The Soul, is the result of 2 things coming together.....
Body + Breath of Life = Soul
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, ............and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ..........and man became a living soul".
In other words, if the body is separate from the body, there is no such thing as a soul !
The Soul, is the result of 2 things coming together.....
Body + Breath of Life = Soul
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, ............and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ..........and man became a living soul".
C
CP_Mike
Guest
Dave... said:
Hi Dave,
What one must remember is that 'soul' is a word used for the whole person, otherwise you get into contradictions with alternative meanings being read into scripture which were never meant in the bible. The bible does not teach that 'soul' is an immaterial part of a person.
O
Oscar3
Guest
cp
there u go again trying to peddle your false teaching. I will tell you what. While I am not even close to being as smart as you are, I would be happy to debate you one on one in the debate forum regarding your view.
what say you cp? are you up to the task?
there u go again trying to peddle your false teaching. I will tell you what. While I am not even close to being as smart as you are, I would be happy to debate you one on one in the debate forum regarding your view.
what say you cp? are you up to the task?
oscar3 said:
And it is simply false teaching because you say so and not because it can be refuted biblically without a lot of Greek dualistic assumptions. You have had more than enough time to counteract CP's arguments. He has only put them forth numerous times in some format. And yet it has been met by silence from most of you (jg has been the only one who has made any commendable effort to try and counteract it and even he has fallen short).
Did you get some sort of divine revelation since the first time CP has put this out?
jgredline
Member
OK Cp before we continue lets take a look at what this word ‘’Nephesh’’ means and lets look at Gen 2:7…..
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
GENESIS 2:7â€â€Does this verse prove that human beings do not have a soul that survives death?
MISINTERPRETATION: Jehovah’s Witnesses cite this verse to prove that man does not have a soul that is distinct from the body. “Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys†(Mankind’s Search for God, 1990, 125). Hence, people are souls in the sense that they are living beings, not in the sense that they have an immaterial nature that survives death.
CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: In Genesis 2:7 the Hebrew word for “soul†(nephesh) means “living being.†However, this Hebrew word is a rich one, carrying various nuances of meaning in different contexts. A fundamental mistake beginning Hebrew and Greek students sometimes make is to assume that, if a Hebrew or Greek word is used in a particular way in one verse, it must mean the same thing in all its other uses. But this is simply wrong. The fact is, Hebrew and Greek words can have different nuances of meaning in different contexts. The word nephesh is an example. While the word means “living being†in Genesis 2:7, the word refers to a soul or spirit as distinct from the body in Genesis 35:18.
Moreover, when we examine what the whole of Scripture teaches about the soul, it is clear that the Watchtower Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses) position is wrong. For example, Revelation 6:9–10 refers to disembodied souls under God’s altar (it would be nonsense to interpret the reference to “soul†in this verse as “living beingâ€Ââ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“I saw underneath the altar the living beings of those who had been slainâ€Â). First Thessalonians 4:13–17 says Christ will bring with him the souls and spirits of those who are now with him in heaven and will reunite their spirits to resurrection bodies. In Philippians 1:21–23 Paul says it’s better to depart and be with Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:6–8 Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. Clearly, the whole of Scripture teaches that each person has a soul that survives death.
Norman Geisler
Further more lets look at what this rich word means…
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon: 5315 נֶפֶשׁ
5315 נֶפֶשׁ [nephesh /neh•fesh/] n f. From 5314; TWOT 1395a; GK 5883; 753 occurrences; AV translates as “soul†475 times, “life†117 times, “person†29 times, “mind†15 times, “heart†15 times, “creature†nine times, “body†eight times, “himself†eight times, “yourselves†six times, “dead†five times, “will†four times, “desire†four times, “man†three times, “themselves†three times, “any†three times, “appetite†twice, and translated miscellaneously 47 times. 1 soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion. 1A that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man. 1B living being. 1C living being (with life in the blood). 1D the man himself, self, person or individual. 1E seat of the appetites. 1F seat of emotions and passions. 1G activity of mind. 1G1 dubious. 1H activity of the will. 1H1 dubious. 1I activity of the character. 1I1 dubious.
EASONS BIBLE DICTIONARY
GHOST  an old Saxon word equivalent to soul or spirit. It is the translation of the Hebrew and the Greek , both meaning “breath,†“life,†“spirit,†the “living principle†(Job 11:20; Jer. 15:9; Matt. 27:50; John 19:30). The expression “to give up the ghost†means to die
soul
(Heb. nephesh) (11:5; 103:1, 2; Lev. 26:30; Is. 1:14; 42:1; Jer. 5:9; 15:1) Strong’s #5315: This Hebrew word occurs more than 750 times in the Bible. It has quite a number of meanings, but most of them can be reduced to the following four categories: (1) life or the life force, especially in connection with lood (Gen. 9:4, 5; Lev. 17:11, 14); (2) one’s soul or the immaterial being, the seat of intellect and emotion (42:1, 2; 86:4; 1 Sam. 1:10; 2 Sam. 5:8; Prov. 23:7; Song 1:7); and (3) an individual or person (84:2; Gen. 2:7; Judg. 12:3; Ezek. 18:4). Originally the word probably referred to the breath (Job 41:21). The Bible typically considers a person as an interconnected whole. This is why the Bible tells us to love God with all our heart, soul, and strengthâ€â€in other words, with our entire being (Deut. 6:4, 5; Josh. 22:5). Nelsons BIBLE dictionary