Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[jgredline]

CP
Let me also ask you the same question.
Is strongs and vines wrong in their interpretation of nephesh

 

[guibox]

So Guibox
Let me get this straight.
You are saying that that strongs and vines are also wrong correct?

IMO, Strong's is loaded with preconceived notions and traditional interpretation outside of what the text says. Young's is a much better concordance as it gives the words, their meanings and where they are found. They dont' give a running commentary like a dictionary where bias riddles it like Strongs.

Nonetheless, in Vine's where you bolded for emphasis it says this:

The noun refers to the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath.

This is partially right and partially wrong but it doesn't support an 'immortal soul' in either case. The 'breath' is the 'ruach', the 'breath of life' it is not the 'nephesh'. Second, it is you who are assuming that this 'life' lives on after physical death as a disembodied soul.

Neither the commentary here or the bible supports such a notion. The 'nephesh' is life but it was viewed as functioning within man as a wholistic being not as a dualistic soul as is traditionally interpreted.

Really jg. Most traditionalist scholars worth their salt are abandoning the 'inherent immortal soul' of man. Many completely reject it. The compromise is that man was made immortal at Christ's death and resurrection.

This constant appeal to the OT of all books to support a Greek dualism is laughable and some reformers and many scholars from all faiths for the last 500 years have rejected it. It is unfortunate that you and others choose to hang on to Catholic dogma despite no biblical evidence for it.

 

[jgredline]

Guibox
It is you my friend who are grossly mistaken. First off all Youngs is not up to date. I went out an purchased one the other day and it is OK but very incomplete and it containes many errors in it. This is why it is not used any conservative seminaries or bible colleges. I could see liberal theologians using it, because it is not clear and can be twisted around like the wind...

Sorry but both Vines and Strongs are the industry standard. Your camp came up with this greek dualstic thing a majig to try and make false theology right, when it is wrong. The bible clearly states that we are not Monismistic....

You need to be able to prove Monism in order to sustain the theory of Annihaltion that is easly debunked as I have already done...

Oh there are a few brilliant minds that have embraced this false theology ''John Stott'' being one of them...But don't exagerate and say '' Most traditionalist scholars worth their salt are abandoning the 'inherent immortal soul' of man'' because this is something you can't possibly prove....

No my friend, you need to wake up and smell the coffee...What you have been taught in the SDA curch is bad and false theology...


Lets look again...
When Rachel died, Scripture says, “Her soul was departing (for she died)â€Â
We agree on this part correct. She died...

1 Kings 17:19-22
19 And he said to her, "Give me your son." So he took him out of her arms and carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his own bed. 20 Then he cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?" 21 And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him." 22 Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.

Elijah prays that the dead child’s “soul†would come into him again
Explain this one away to me... Are you saying that Elijah prayed for God to to send another body to go into him?

Here is another one for you ''guys'' to explain to my very simple mind..
Isa 53:12
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

What in the world does Isa mean when he says ''He poured out His soul unto death''

Again. Go back and read the context and explain that one away for me as well. I will be looking for your answers....

 

[guibox]

jg, frankly it is not worth the effort to explain them. You and I will see these passages differently simply because you are interpreting them from a dualistic perspectives. You do not believe man's soul lives on after death from these scriptures. Instead you go to these verses to try and prove your pre-existing assumption.

'nephesh' means life. God gives life and God takes it away. Praying for one soul to come back is simply asking God to give life again. Nothing more, nothing less. You cannot prove that 'nephesh' is pneuma. The 'pneuma that goes back to tGod who gave it' is not the nephesh as you are trying to make it out to be.

What I learned in the SDA church comes straight from some of the Reformers and many, many more after them. I suggest you go back and look at my 'champions of conditional mortality' to see just a small fraction of the roster of those from Protestant to Catholic that deny the Bible teaches the immortality of the soul.

And sorry, I'll stick with Young's anyday. Just from the little you've shown from Strong's has me believing that I'd be better off listening to you and Atonement for my Greek translation. When someone can glean 'the separation of the body from the soul' out of 'thanatos', it doesn't hold much credibility with me.

Unfortunately, you and I are going to have to disagree....and just before you get to haughty about how convincing you are, you and others have failed miserably to try and prove annihilation 'false'. The fact that you believe this obvious fallacy shows me that you are not interested in logical and exegetical study of the scriptures.

Catholic Orthodoxy has a strong hold on the minds of those who desperately cling to it.

 

[Solo]

jg, frankly it is not worth the effort to explain them. You and I will see these passages differently simply because you are interpreting them from a dualistic perspectives. You do not believe man's soul lives on after death from these scriptures. Instead you go to these verses to try and prove your pre-existing assumption.

'nephesh' means life. God gives life and God takes it away. Praying for one soul to come back is simply asking God to give life again. Nothing more, nothing less. You cannot prove that 'nephesh' is pneuma. The 'pneuma that goes back to tGod who gave it' is not the nephesh as you are trying to make it out to be.

What I learned in the SDA church comes straight from some of the Reformers and many, many more after them. I suggest you go back and look at my 'champions of conditional mortality' to see just a small fraction of the roster of those from Protestant to Catholic that deny the Bible teaches the immortality of the soul.

And sorry, I'll stick with Young's anyday. Just from the little you've shown from Strong's has me believing that I'd be better off listening to you and Atonement for my Greek translation. When someone can glean 'the separation of the body from the soul' out of 'thanatos', it doesn't hold much credibility with me.

Unfortunately, you and I are going to have to disagree....and just before you get to haughty about how convincing you are, you and others have failed miserably to try and prove annihilation 'false'. The fact that you believe this obvious fallacy shows me that you are not interested in logical and exegetical study of the scriptures.

Catholic Orthodoxy has a strong hold on the minds of those who desperately cling to it.

Again, not a surprise answer.

 

[jgredline]

jg, frankly it is not worth the effort to explain them.

Yep, Like Solo said. I too was expecting this answer.
For now i am off to have some
:

 

[guibox]

Yep, Like Solo said. I too was expecting this answer.
For now i am off to have some
:

Mercifully I have Solo on ignore so I don't have to read what he posts.

Okay, lets look at Isaiah 53 then...

The nephesh was also the 'seat of emotion' in Hebrew thinking. Again, they didn't have the anthropoligical understanding as we did. All of these 'brain and 'heart' functions' were considered part of a living being, a functioning 'nephesh'. Pouring out one's soul doesn't mean 'giving up my immortal essence'. We 'pour out our souls' when we lament something. Christ in the garden was in an eternal struggle. He said 'I am sorrowful even unto death'...hmmm. Do I see a parallel here?

We can keep going on and on proof texting and explaining if you'd like jg. This is the problem. Instead of trying to step back and look at everything you'd rather look at one text and then move on to the next and the next when they are explained. It is the equivalent of having your king in check and instead of moving back to the first square you move on to another square and then another when you keep getting checked.

When you take a step back and look at all the evidence lingustically, culturally and contextually, the Bible doesn't support man having an intrinsic immortal soul.

Frankly, I'd rather not go through this tedious topic for you to basically come to the conclusion that you feel your're right and I'm wrong. As you've said...it goes round and round and round.

 

[Solo]

Mercifully I have Solo on ignore so I don't have to read what he posts.

The truth hurts those that are involved in the lies of the devil, and they refuse to come into the light for cleansing from their condemnation.
With Love,
Michael

 

[CP_Mike]

Elijah prays that the dead child’s “soul†would come into him again
Explain this one away to me... Are you saying that Elijah prayed for God to to send another body to go into him?

Here is another one for you ''guys'' to explain to my very simple mind..
Isa 53:12
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

What in the world does Isa mean when he says ''He poured out His soul unto death''

Nephesh and psuche meaning life..

Literally means he poured out his 'life force' until he died.

On resucitation, the girl's life (vitality,'life force') came back (resucitation)

How would one pour out the person inside a flesh body? I can't do it! If you look at leviticus 17:11 and Dt 12:23 where it states the nephesh is in the blood (life), then pouring out (liquid blood) ones soul (life in the blood) until he died.

Do you see it now?

 

[Oscar3]

Nephesh and psuche meaning life..

Literally means he poured out his 'life force' until he died.

On resucitation, the girl's life (vitality,'life force') came back (resucitation)

How would one pour out the person inside a flesh body? I can't do it! If you look at leviticus 17:11 and Dt 12:23 where it states the nephesh is in the blood (life), then pouring out (liquid blood) ones soul (life in the blood) until he died.

Do you see it now?

LOL
Cp, you make no sense at all. First, your interpretaion of soul is false, or I should say atleast mostly false.

OK In Lev 17:11 it is speaking of flesh and bones
In 1 kings the passage speaks of the imaterial part of man, not the blood. From your interpretation you are saying she bleed out and then her blood went back in? Can you see how coo coo this looks :o If that was the case, the bible would have said it.
Dude, Go back and read what you posted. You look very foolish right now :

 

[Solo]

LOL
Cp, you make no sense at all. First, your interpretaion of soul is false, or I should say atleast mostly false.

OK In Lev 17:11 it is speaking of flesh and bones
In 1 kings the passage speaks of the imaterial part of man, not the blood. From your interpretation you are saying she bleed out and then her blood went back in? Can you see how coo coo this looks :o If that was the case, the bible would have said it.
Dude, Go back and read what you posted. You look very foolish right now :

Oscar,
Those that believe that the Soul does not exist apart from the body and believe the lie of "soul sleep" are calling Jesus Christ a liar. Most cultists and false teachers will shirk from this truth but the fact remains that they are miles away from agreeing with the Lord of Lords, and King of Kings.

Jesus teaches, "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:19-31

The rich man's and Lazarus's flesh was not carried to HELL and Abraham's bosom, but the inward soul of each of them was carried to the place of their eternal abode. It is not any simpler than that.

Also, Jesus imparted many profound truths that the old covenant did not release to the Israelites, but the church is the culmination of the mysteries of God as described in the following Scriptures.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
Matthew 13:10-13

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:25

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Romans 16:25-27

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:6-16

 

[Oscar3]

Thanks Solo
I really enjoyed that post

*edited out for irrelevancy and insults against other members*

 

[Oscar3]

By the way Solo, You put on a clinic on that can one loose his salvation thread.
Sorry for hijacking your thread JG, now we are even :

 

[jgredline]

CP
Oscar is right in his reponse to you....The word Soul has two differant meanings there.....

 

[carey]

LUKE 16:22–28
Because this passage so obviously supports the idea of conscious existence after deathâ€â€as well as conscious suffering for the wicked following deathâ€â€the Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th day adventist and other cults go to great lengths to reinterpret it.

They argue that “the rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment.â€Â

They say that “since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic.†Their “deaths†symbolize dying to their former circumstances. In God’s program, the “repentant Lazarus class dies to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor.â€Â

By contrast, “those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the kingdom message taught by Jesus.†The “torment†referred to in this passage is the pain caused on evil people by the righteous message of Jesus and his disciples.


If people at death simply lapse into a state of unconsciousness, then Jesus’ comments in this passage lose their meaning. The elaborate reinterpretation offered by the Watchtower Society and other cukts completely crosses the boundary of credulity.

Scholars have noted that whenever Jesus taught, he provided examples from real-life situations. For example, he spoke of a treasure buried in a field, a wedding feast, a man working in a vineyard, a woman sweeping her house, a shepherd watching his sheep, and a son returning home after squandering money.

Jesus never illustrated a teaching with a falsehood. This being the case, we must conclude that in Luke 16 Jesus is giving a teaching based on a “real-life†situationâ€â€involving conscious existence after death. Certainly the verse is in perfect harmony with other verses that teach conscious existence in the afterlife (see Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:6–8; Phil. 1:21–23; 1 Thess. 4:13–17; Rev. 6:9–10).

Jesus never calls this real story a “parable,†and unlike parables, which never use real names, Jesus used a real name (Lazarus) of a person.


Any Comments and I will gladly accept Amens.

All of the scriptures you mentioned here are talking about being ressurected 1st when Christ returns.
Except the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
If it is not a parable it must be a future event that Christ was referring to and he was seeing into the future.

The consciousness after death prior to the ressurection contradicts too many things in the Bible and kinda takes away the need for judgement day.
If your bad and you immediately are punished when were you judged and sentenced to the place of torment?
And if you immediately go to heaven when when is this 1st resurrection spoken of in so many places in the bible. You know when we are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus.

 

[Solo]

All of the scriptures you mentioned here are talking about being ressurected 1st when Christ returns.
Except the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
If it is not a parable it must be a future event that Christ was referring to and he was seeing into the future.

The consciousness after death prior to the ressurection contradicts too many things in the Bible and kinda takes away the need for judgement day.
If your bad and you immediately are punished when were you judged and sentenced to the place of torment?
And if you immediately go to heaven when when is this 1st resurrection spoken of in so many places in the bible. You know when we are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus.

The first resurrection is the point at which the body is resurrected and those believers that are alive when Jesus returns will be changed from a corruptible, mortal body to a incorrupt, immortal body. The soul of man will already be in heaven or hell awaiting the judgement where hell is cast into the lake of fire.

 

[carey]

The first resurrection is the point at which the body is resurrected and those believers that are alive when Jesus returns will be changed from a corruptible, mortal body to a incorrupt, immortal body. The soul of man will already be in heaven or hell awaiting the judgement where hell is cast into the lake of fire.

Here are a few verses that would contradict your view.



Ecclesiastes 9 : 5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;


Daniel 12
The End Times
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your peopleâ€â€everyone whose name is found written in the bookâ€â€will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Revelations 20 : 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[Solo]

The first resurrection is the point at which the body is resurrected and those believers that are alive when Jesus returns will be changed from a corruptible, mortal body to a incorrupt, immortal body. The soul of man will already be in heaven or hell awaiting the judgement where hell is cast into the lake of fire.

Here are a few verses that would contradict your view.

Ecclesiastes 9 : 5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;

Here is what Jesus says about it all, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26

Here are a few verses that would contradict your view.

Daniel 12
The End Times
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your peopleâ€â€everyone whose name is found written in the bookâ€â€will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

When Jesus returns, those that are his redeemed will be resurrected, changed, and reunited with their soul and will forever be with the Lord. After the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth, the second resurrection will occur, and the judgment will take place. Those that Jesus and the redeemed saints will judge the goats and the sheep. Some will go into eternal life, some will go into everlasting punishment.

Here are a few verses that would contradict your view.

13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Daniel 12:13 in the KJV states: 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The dead will stand in their lot at the end of the days, whether in the first resurrection gathering to meet Jesus Christ in the clouds, or in the white throne judgment after the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.

Here are a few verses that would contradict your view.

Revelations 20 : 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

The second resurrection occurs and the dead are judged according to their works. Those that were in the first resurrection were with the Lord throughout the 1000 year reign. After the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ the second resurrection occurs, and the rest of the dead are judged.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[carey]

The second resurrection occurs and the dead are judged according to their works. Those that were in the first resurrection were with the Lord throughout the 1000 year reign. After the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ the second resurrection occurs, and the rest of the dead are judged.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

Interesting interpretation my Texas bro.
But I still don't see it the way you do.
Not that it matters really
Either way is fine with me.

 

[jgredline]

The first resurrection is the point at which the body is resurrected and those believers that are alive when Jesus returns will be changed from a corruptible, mortal body to a incorrupt, immortal body. The soul of man will already be in heaven or hell awaiting the judgement where hell is cast into the lake of fire.

Thanks Solo.
I could not have said it better myself...Where alot folk get confused is that they do not realize there will be multiple resurrections..