Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[jgredline]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words....lets take a look.

 

[guibox]

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: In Genesis 2:7 the Hebrew word for “soul†(nephesh) means “living being.†However, this Hebrew word is a rich one, carrying various nuances of meaning in different contexts. A fundamental mistake beginning Hebrew and Greek students sometimes make is to assume that, if a Hebrew or Greek word is used in a particular way in one verse, it must mean the same thing in all its other uses.

It is illogical to try and use 'nephesh' to mean completely different things. The uses of 'nephesh', though varied, don't contradict the fundamental meaning of 'nephesh' a 'living being' or 'life', but enhance it and flesh it out. You also ignore the anthropological use and understanding of the Hebrews regarding 'nephesh'. In using this analysis, instead of saying that 'turquoise', 'aqua-marine', 'navy' are other words and meanings for 'blue'. What you are saying is 'blue' in another context really means 'red'.

But this is simply wrong. The fact is, Hebrew and Greek words can have different nuances of meaning in different contexts. The word nephesh is an example. While the word means “living being†in Genesis 2:7, the word refers to a soul or spirit as distinct from the body in Genesis 35:18.

You are imposing Greek dualism on Genesis 35:18 by assuming 'soul left her' means that some disembodied essence of man departed. As is properly defined as 'life' and 'living being', nepheshs works perfectly fine here. When man dies, the Hebrews believed that the 'spirit' or the 'spark of life' leaves and man ceases to exist. Man's life has left them due to the taking away of the 'ruach'.

This is also seen in the usage of 'nephesh' being in the blood. When blood is spilled the 'nephesh' is 'spilled' and runs out. Literally, the 'life leaves'. When the spark came back, the 'nepheshs' returned.

There is no reason to completely contradict the view of the Hebrews and say that it means 'wholism' in one context and 'dualism' in another. This is not supported by the Hebrew mindset and understanding of 'nephesh'. You are imposing Greek views on Hebrew thinking.

Moreover, when we examine what the whole of Scripture teaches about the soul, it is clear that the Watchtower Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses) position is wrong. For example, Revelation 6:9–10 refers to disembodied souls under God’s altar (it would be nonsense to interpret the reference to “soul†in this verse as “living beingâ€Ââ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“I saw underneath the altar the living beings of those who had been slainâ€Â)..

This verse again?? Obviously this person (as it seems like this is a cut and paste job) has no concept of metaphor and allegory. It makes even less sense to interpret this passage as 'disembodied souls'. This has been dealt with clearly and thoroughly elsewhere. I won't bother wasting any more words on it.

First Thessalonians 4:13–17 says Christ will bring with him the souls and spirits of those who are now with him in heaven and will reunite their spirits to resurrection bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4 says no such thing. This is a prime example of superimposing a preconceived notion strictly on the King James English. When you look at the context, vs 14 is saying that the dead will be raised as God raised Christ from the dead. 'For if we believe that Jesus DIED and ROSE, EVEN SO (or in the same manner of) will God bring with Him (Christ).

The Message Bible is one of the Bibles that properly corrects this verse. Take make this say that God 'brings the dead souls back to be reunited' makes the first part of vs 14 completely meaningless but contradicts the passage completely and makes it completely redundant (ex: those 'who are asleep' cannot be in heaven at the same time for their rising is to be awoken from that sleep). This is one of the myriad of contradictions such a 'body/soul reunification) concept brings to the clear passage of life at the resurrection.

In Philippians 1:21–23 Paul says it’s better to depart and be with Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:6–8 Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. Clearly, the whole of Scripture teaches that each person has a soul that survives death.

Both texts clearly disputed elsewhereby Drew, CP_Mike and myself. Interpreting these passages to mean 'my disembodied soul goes to heaven at death', is the best example of horrific exegetical hermenutics the traditionalist has and yet this method of laughable assumptions read into the text are still pawned off as truth. It is sad that when such arguments are clearly ripped to shreds, that they continue to rear their ugly heads and refuse to die the quick death they deserve.

 

[CP_Mike]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words....lets take a look.

Unfortunately, that diagram completely misses the heart and describes 'Nephesh' as the mind where the Hebrews believed the Heart was the center of one's being

Here is a more 'accurate ' view based on what I have already posted

 

[jgredline]

Guibox and CP
Seems we are going round and round :-D

 

[jgredline]

The Message Bible is one of the Bibles that properly corrects this verse. Take make this say that God 'brings the dead souls back to be reunited' makes the first part of vs 14 completely meaningless but contradicts the passage completely and makes it completely redundant (ex: those 'who are asleep' cannot be in heaven at the same time for their rising is to be awoken from that sleep). This is one of the myriad of contradictions such a 'body/soul reunification) concept brings to the clear passage of life at the resurrection.

Guibox
Tell me you did not just quote the message and call it a bible :-D

 

[jgredline]

THE FACETS OF THE IMMATERIAL ASPECT OF MAN
Man is like a diamond with its many facets. Those facets are not separate entities, yet they reflect various aspects of the whole. They may serve similar or overlapping functions, yet they are distinguishable. They are not parts; they are aspects, facets, faces of the whole.

A. Soul
In its most basic sense, the Hebrew word, nephesh, means “life.†It designates man originally created as a living being (soul) (Gen. 2:7) as well as other forms of life (1:20–21, 24, 30; Lev. 17:11). Notice also Exodus 21:23 and Joshua 2:13. This is the sense in which English would speak of an individual as a soul.
That life principle departs at the time of physical death (Gen. 35:18; Jer. 15:2). Yet the corpse is called soul (Lev. 21:1–3; Num. 6:6; 9:6). In the Old Testament “soul†does not exist apart from the body, emphasizing again the unity of man’s being. “Rich and abundant though this use of n. (nephesh, soul) for life is, we must not fail to observe that the n. is never given the meaning of an indestructible core of being, in contradistinction to the physical life, and even capable of living when cut off from that life.â€Â
Soul also is the center of various spiritual and emotional experiences of mankind. These include sympathy (Job 30:25), despair (Ps. 43:5), bitterness (2 Kings 4:27), hate (2 Sam. 5:8), love (Song of Sol. 1:7; 3:1–4), and grief (Jer. 13:17).
The New Testament reveals some similarities and differences in its use of the word “soul†(psyche). It denotes the whole individual person (Acts 2:41; 27:37 kjv). But it can refer to the immaterial part of man only (Matt. 10:28). It also designates people in the intermediate state between death and the resurrection of the body (Rev. 6:9).
Soul seems to be a principal focus of redemption (though of course, the physical body also experiences the effects of redemption). Notice passages like Hebrews 10:39; 13:17; James 1:21; 1 Peter 1:9, 22; 2:11, 25.
To sum up: soul can mean the whole person, alive or after death; it can designate the immaterial part of a person with its many feelings and emotions; and it is an important focus of spiritual redemption and growth.

B. Spirit
Spirit (ruach and pneuma) refers only to the immaterial part of man, unlike soul, which can denote the whole man, material and immaterial. Man is a soul, but man is not said to be a spiritâ€â€he has a spirit.
The spirit originates from God, and all people have spirits (Num. 16:22; Heb. 12:9). It is simply not biblical to talk of man not having a spirit until he receives the Holy Spirit at salvation (cf. 1 Cor. 2:11; Heb. 4:12; James 2:26).
As a facet of the immaterial part of man, one’s spirit is the center of various traits, emotions, and activities. Some of these include thinking (Isa. 29:24), remembering (Ps. 77:6), humility (Matt. 5:3), grief (Gen. 26:35), vexation (John 13:21), jealousy (Num. 5:14), haughtiness (Prov. 16:18), and contriteness (Ps. 34:18). Because it may evince undesirable emotions, the spirit needs attention in the spiritual life (Ps. 51:10; 2 Cor. 7:1).
Though soul and spirit can relate to the same activities or emotions, there does seem to be a distinction and contrast between soul and spirit in Pauline thought. This accounts for his emphasis on the spiritual (1 Cor. 2:14; 3:1; 15:45; Eph. 1:3; 5:19; Col. 1:9; 3:16). Why?
When Paul became a Christian, the experience of God in Christ became the determining factor, not only in his view of God, but in everything. Because Paul was a Jew, his attitude to God affected and determined all his thoughts. In Christian experience, psyche, the term for purely human vitality, became unimportant. Pneuma, the term that began with God but proceeded into man, became central. The infrequency of the use of psyche in Paul is the key to the understanding of it.… Paul’s knowledge of the Holy Spirit set the basis of his anthropology and pneuma took the leading role.
To sum up: spirit does not indicate the whole person, but the immaterial part with its various functions and feelings. In Pauline thought it assumes prominence in relation to the spiritual life.

C. Heart
Heart is a very comprehensive concept in both Old and New Testaments. Used about 955 times it stands for the center and seat of life, both physical and psychical. Only a relatively few occurrences refer to the physical organ (2 Sam. 18:14; 2 Kings 9:24). The greater number use heart to denote the inner man, the essence of the many facets of his personality. Some of these include the following.
1. Heart is the seat of intellectual life. It considers (Deut. 8:5); it obtains a knowledge of the Word (Ps. 119:11); it is the source of evil thoughts and actions (Matt. 15:19–20); it has thoughts and intentions (Heb. 4:12); it can be deceitful (Jer. 17:9).
2. Heart is the seat of the emotional life. It loves (Deut. 6:5); it produces self-reproach (Job 27:6); it rejoices and is glad (Ps. 104:15; Isa. 30:29); it can be sorrowful (Neh. 2:2; Rom. 9:2); it has desires (Ps. 37:4); it can be bitter (73:21).
3. It is the seat of the volitional life. It seeks (Deut. 4:29); it can be turned aside (Exod. 14:5); it can be hardened (8:15; Heb. 4:7); it is capable of choice (Exod. 7:22–23); it can be uncircumcised (Jer. 9:26; Acts 7:51).
4. It is the seat of spiritual life. With the heart man believes resulting in righteousness (Rom. 10:9–10). For the believer the heart is the abode of the Father (1 Pet. 3:15), the Son (Eph. 3:17), and the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22). The believer’s heart should be pure (1 Tim. 1:5; Heb. 10:22) and circumcised (Rom. 2:29).

D. Conscience
The conscience is a witness within man that tells him he ought to do what he believes to be right and not to do what he believes to be wrong. Conscience does not teach us what is right or wrong but prods us to do what we have been taught to be right. One can do what is wrong in good conscience because he has been misinformed as to what is right and wrong (Acts 23:1).
Conscience appears only in the New Testament. Those functions of conscience are assigned to the heart in the Old Testament (e.g., 1 Sam. 24:5; Job 27:6). In the New Testament conscience occurs most often in Paul’s writings (John used the word heart, as in 1 John 3:19–21). The unsaved person’s conscience may be a good guide (John 8:9; Rom. 2:15), or it may not be even though it may seem to guide correctly (Acts 23:1; 1 Tim. 4:2; Titus 1:15; Heb. 10:22). Conscience may be likened to unreliable brakes on an automobile. They may do their job at times, but they cannot be counted on. The Christian’s conscience operates to prod him to do what is right in various relationships of life. (1) It prods him to obey the government under which he lives (Rom. 13:5). (2) It tells him to bear up under an unjust employer (1 Pet. 2:18–19). (3) The conscience of a weaker brother that does not permit him to eat meat sacrificed to idols should be respected by the stronger brother (1 Cor. 8:7, 10, 12). (4) Conscience may be called to witness to the depth and reality of a spiritual commitment (Rom. 9:2; 2 Cor. 1:12; 4:2).

E. Mind
Like conscience, mind is more specifically a New Testament concept. In the Old Testament heart is usually the word behind the translation mind. Mind includes both the faculties of perceiving and understanding as well as those of feeling, judging, and determining. Phroneo, nous, and sunesis are the principal New Testament words for this concept.
The unsaved man’s mind is said to be reprobate (Rom. 1:28 kjv), vain (Eph. 4:17 kjv), defiled (Titus 1:15), blinded (2 Cor. 4:4), and darkened (Eph. 4:18). Further, he is without that critical faculty represented by sunesis (Rom. 3:11).
The believer’s mind occupies a central place in his spiritual development. God uses it in his understanding of truth (Luke 24:45; 1 Cor. 14:14–15). The dedicated life must include a renewed mind (Rom. 12:2). The mind is involved in deciding doubtful things (14:5), in pursuing holiness (1 Pet. 1:13), in understanding the Lord’s will (Eph. 5:17), and in loving the Lord (Matt. 22:37). Every thought must be captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor. 10:5).

F. Flesh
Though flesh sometimes refers to tissue (Luke 24:39) or to the whole material part of man (1 Cor. 15:39; Heb. 5:7), when used of a facet of the immaterial nature it refers to that disposition to sin and to oppose God (Rom. 7:18; 1 Cor. 3:3; 2 Cor. 1:12; Gal. 5:17; Col. 2:18; 2 Pet. 2:10; 1 John 2:16). Both the believer and unbeliever possess this capacity.

G. Will
Actually the Bible says much more about the will of God than man’s will, and what it does say is unsystematic. A believer can will to do what is right or what is wrong (Rom. 7:15–25; 1 Tim. 6:9; James 4:4). Will may be more of an expression of oneself through the other facets of his personality, rather than a distinct faculty in and of itself. These are the facets of the immaterial part of man through which he may glorify himself or glorify and serve his Lord.

Understanding biblical truth (225). Chicago, Ill.: Moody Press.

 

[jgredline]

OK Fellas
Here is one more to look at....

SOUL, PERSON, nephesh (neh-fesh). Nephesh is a noun meaning “soul†or “person.†At times it means the inner being as distinct from flesh (Is. 10:18). This inner being departs from the body at death (Gen. 35:18; Jer. 15:9). Nephesh can indicate a living being where life resides in the blood. This would explain the prohibition against eating blood. Numerous times the term is used to mean “life†of either animals or humans; for example, Ex. 21:23 says, “If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life.†In poetic usage, the soul is the person, so that the phrase “my life†means “me.†Nephesh can also be used to indicate appetites, as in Eccl. The soul is seen as the seat of emotions over 150 times in the OT. (Strong’s #5315)
Soulâ€â€the immaterial part of human beings
A. Descriptive of:
People Acts 2:41, 43
Sinner James 5:20
Emotional life 1 Sam. 18:1, 3
Spiritual life Ps. 42:1, 2, 4
Disembodied state Rev. 6:9
Rev. 20:4
B. Characteristics of:
Belongs to God Ezek. 18:3, 4
Possesses immortality Matt. 10:28
Most vital asset Matt. 16:26
Leaves body at death Gen. 35:18
C. Abilities of, able to:
Believe Heb. 10:39
Love God Luke 10:27
Sin Mic. 6:7
Prosper 3 John 2
Survive death Matt. 10:28
D. Duties of, to:
Keep itself Deut. 4:9
Seek the Lord Deut. 4:29
Love the Lord Deut. 6:5
Serve the Lord Deut. 10:12
Store God’s Word Deut. 11:18
Keep God’s Law Deut. 26:16
Obey God Deut. 30:2, 6, 10
Get wisdom Prov. 19:8
E. Enemies of, seen in:
Fleshly lusts 1 Pet. 2:11
Evil environment 2 Pet. 2:8
Sin Lev. 5:4, 15, 17
Adultery Prov. 6:32
Evil people Prov. 22:24, 25
Ignorance Prov. 8:36
Hell Prov. 23:14
F. Of the righteous:
Kept by God Ps. 121:7
Vexed by sin 2 Pet. 2:8
Subject to authorities Rom. 13:1
Purified by obedience 1 Pet. 1:22
Not allowed to famish Prov. 10:3
Restored Ps. 23:1, 3
Enriched Prov. 11:25
Satisfied Prov. 13:25
Reign with Christ Rev. 20:4
G. Of the wicked:
Desires evil Prov. 21:10
Delights in abominations Is. 66:3
Has nothing Prov. 13:4
Required Luke 12:19, 20
To be punished Rom. 2:9
Soul
The Open Bible : New King James Version. 1998, c1997.

 

[CP_Mike]

i JG,
You forgot to post that 'Nephesh' dies at physical death:

Numbers 23;10
Judges 16:30

"nephesh" can also mean corpse..(a dead nephesh)

The Dr Tory Hoff essay provides a good explanation for Matt 10:28 and Rev 6:9 in context witht he rest of scripture..

BTW, you last posts contradict with the 3 part person diagram you posted..as one will find out, there are about 80 'parts' mentioned in the bible with spiritual significance.

 

[guibox]

It is also proper to note that animals were 'nephesh' as well.

jg, though I don't put much stock in paraphrase as they always lean to traditional understanding, I find it very interesting that 'will God bring with Him' would not be interpreted as you say. Instead we see that the language used is spot on in exegetical interpretation.

Even SDAs and other soul sleep activists believe 'will God bring with Him' means 'Christ will bring them with Him back TO heaven'. This is incorrect as well.

This is why I was so surprised by the Message's interpretation which jived with my own study.

A close analysis of this section and even the verse makes absolutely no sense to say that Christ will bring the 'souls' of the saints with them to be reunited with their bodies. The gross errors, redundancies and contradictions alone should make a logical an rational person veer away from this interpertation.

Instead, we see that this reasoning is put in simply because of the assumptive reasoning that man has a soul that goes to heaven. Of course it would have to come back to its body for the rest of the bible's take on resurrection to make any sense and not be contradicted. So rather than take the clear teachng that man inherits eternal life only through resurrection, the 'body/soul reunification' has been invented to clear up the illogical inconsistencies.

 

[jgredline]

Guibox
As I was thinking about this, it seems to me that we will forever be going round and round...

I believe that your interpretations are wrong and you believe my interpretaions are wrong. I pasted a bunch of articles here in row to show that there are countless articles proving my side and you guys, atleast Cp has done the same. So how does one get past this?

 

[Solo]

http://www.thesecretofeternallife.com/revelationk.html

 

[CP_Mike]

http://www.thesecretofeternallife.com/revelationk.html

Hi Solo,
The tripartite view is not correct. Thee is no mention of the heart.

 

[guibox]

Guibox
As I was thinking about this, it seems to me that we will forever be going round and round...

So how does one get past this?

Simple. Stop putting preconceived notions on the 'soul' into the texts and take it for what it is. Study and understand the Hebrew mindset and allow the literal meaning of 'nephesh' interpret the rest of it. You are correct that 'nephesh' has many meanings but they are all contingent on man being a 'living being'. Stop trying to make one meaning of 'nephesh' contradict the clear translation of the others. Allow it to complement it.

The Hebrew anthropological mindset didn't have a concept of brain waves, electrical currents or even how emotions and feelings are produced. They attributed this to man being a living, working, functioning 'nephesh'. It is incorrect to try and make these attributes mean that the 'nephesh' was something that could live on outside of the body.

This was not a Hebrew mindset!

Hence, you cannot read Genesis 35 and say that because it says her 'nephesh' left her, that it means her 'soul went to heaven'. This not only is not supported by the context, but disagrees with the anthropological understanding of the 'whole man' as is represented by 'nephesh'.

 

[jgredline]

Simple. Stop putting preconceived notions on the 'soul' into the texts and take it for what it is. Study and understand the Hebrew mindset and allow the literal meaning of 'nephesh' interpret the rest of it. You are correct that 'nephesh' has many meanings but they are all contingent on man being a 'living being'. Stop trying to make one meaning of 'nephesh' contradict the clear translation of the others. Allow it to complement it.

The Hebrew anthropological mindset didn't have a concept of brain waves, electrical currents or even how emotions and feelings are produced. They attributed this to man being a living, working, functioning 'nephesh'. It is incorrect to try and make these attributes mean that the 'nephesh' was something that could live on outside of the body.

This was not a Hebrew mindset!

Hence, you cannot read Genesis 35 and say that because it says her 'nephesh' left her, that it means her 'soul went to heaven'. This not only is not supported by the context, but disagrees with the anthropological understanding of the 'whole man' as is represented by 'nephesh'.

See, you have your interpretation which is false and I have my interpretation that is correct....Lets put it this way. There is a reason why 90% of orthodox Christianity agrees with my point of view. It is because it is the correct view...
The only folks who agree with you are folks who believe in the false doctrine of annihilation...For you to believe the way I do, would mean that your theology is wrong and false, which it is....There is no nice way of saying it.

 

[jgredline]

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul was departing(for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.


Soul: Enhanced Strong's Lexicon:
H5315: נֶפֶשׁ / nepeÅ¡
1 soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion. 1a that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man. 1b living being. 1c living being (with life in the blood). 1d the man himself, self, person or individual. 1e seat of the appetites. 1f seat of emotions and passions. 1g activity of mind. 1g1 dubious. 1h activity of the will. 1h1 dubious. 1i activity of the character. 1i1 dubious.



Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
nepesh (נֶֶפֶשׁ, 5315), “soul; self; life; person; heart.†This is a very common term in both ancient and modern Semitic languages. It occurs over 780 times in the Old Testament and is evenly distributed in all periods of the text with a particularly high frequency in poetic passages.
The basic meaning is apparently related to the rare verbal form, napash. The noun refers to the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath.


So guibox
Again the Gen 35 verse you provided worked against you......

 

[Oscar3]

Hello Giubox
I see that you have been taught some new things.
I see cp did not take me up on my offer. I don't blame him.

 

[Jay T]

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul was departing(for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

[

Again the Gen 35 verse you provided worked against you......

AND....supports satan's doctrine (Genesis 3:4) of the immortal soul ?

 

[guibox]

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul was departing(for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.


Soul: Enhanced Strong's Lexicon:
H5315: ?????? / nepes<caron>
1 soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion. 1a that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man. 1b living being. 1c living being (with life in the blood). 1d the man himself, self, person or individual. 1e seat of the appetites. 1f seat of emotions and passions. 1g activity of mind. 1g1 dubious. 1h activity of the will. 1h1 dubious. 1i activity of the character. 1i1 dubious.



Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
nepesh (???????, 5315), “soul; self; life; person; heart.†This is a very common term in both ancient and modern Semitic languages. It occurs over 780 times in the Old Testament and is evenly distributed in all periods of the text with a particularly high frequency in poetic passages.
The basic meaning is apparently related to the rare verbal form, napash. The noun refers to the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath.


So guibox
Again the Gen 35 verse you provided worked against you......

On the contrary. It only works against me when one imposes a dualistic mindset that is not present in the definition of 'nephesh'. Nowhere in the Hebrew mindset was 'nephesh' the 'soul' as is traditionally taught. 'nephesh' was life contingent on body and breath. 'nephesh' was a living being. Nowhere in all the uses of 'soul' is does this mean something immortal.

Rachel's life left her 'for she died'. It doesn't mean that she had some immortal essence that was her 'spirit' which contained all her thoughts and feelings and went back to God. The simple fact that her 'nephesh' came back when the spirit as breathed back into her proves this.

Until you quit trying to impose dualism on a Hebrew mindset you will always been confused.

 

[jgredline]

On the contrary. It only works against me when one imposes a dualistic mindset that is not present in the definition of 'nephesh'. Nowhere in the Hebrew mindset was 'nephesh' the 'soul' as is traditionally taught. 'nephesh' was life contingent on body and breath. 'nephesh' was a living being. Nowhere in all the uses of 'soul' is does this mean something immortal.

Rachel's life left her 'for she died'. It doesn't mean that she had some immortal essence that was her 'spirit' which contained all her thoughts and feelings and went back to God. The simple fact that her 'nephesh' came back when the spirit as breathed back into her proves this.

Until you quit trying to impose dualism on a Hebrew mindset you will always been confused.

So Guibox
Let me get this straight.
You are saying that that strongs and vines are also wrong correct?

 

[CP_Mike]

Hi JG,
In the case of Rachel's 'nephesh' departing, it literally means her life was going, not that it was headed somewhere else. The Hebrews had no notion of the life living somewhere else!

So in this case, 'life' is the correct interpretation