Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[CP_Mike]

So you see like it or not, you are on my turf. So this is the way that I see it. You are in here teaching contrary to what ''we'' believe here. In the context of this forum you are teaching against the TOS that was established using the word of God 2 tim 3:16. It is also my own opinion that you are teaching false doctrine as you are clearly teaching annihalation that is noplace found in scripture. I have again proven you wrong, but your lack of spiritual understanding is preventing you from seeing what is in front of you.
1 cor 2:9-16,

Hi JG,
So when you feel you are losing the argument, you have to resort to this?
Come on, stay in the debate!

 

[jgredline]

CP, Drew and the to rest of your possey when, ''as it is in your nature to do so'', jump in.

With all due respect Guibox and I were enjoying a rather peacful debate until you guys jumped in. You guys behave like a bunch of Piranhas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha

It seems to me that each one of you specialize in a single word.
For one its soul, for another its death, for another its torment, give me a break. Does it take all of you to make 1 person? Even a that, you still all have your theology wrong. :-?

 

[jgredline]

So you see like it or not, you are on my turf. So this is the way that I see it. You are in here teaching contrary to what ''we'' believe here. In the context of this forum you are teaching against the TOS that was established using the word of God 2 tim 3:16. It is also my own opinion that you are teaching false doctrine as you are clearly teaching annihalation that is noplace found in scripture. I have again proven you wrong, but your lack of spiritual understanding is preventing you from seeing what is in front of you.
1 cor 2:9-16,

Hi JG,
So when you feel you are losing the argument, you have to resort to this?
Come on, stay in the debate!

CP
This will be the last time I address you on this particular thread. If you wish to debate something, start a new thread.
I can also assure you that it is only to through the eyes of your possey that you will see what you want to see.

 

[CP_Mike]

CP, Drew and the to rest of your possey when, ''as it is in your nature to do so'', jump in.

With all due respect Guibox and I were enjoying a rather peacful debate until you guys jumped in. You guys behave like a bunch of Piranhas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha

It seems to me that each one of you specialize in a single word.
For one its soul, for another its death, for another its torment, give me a break. Does it take all of you to make 1 person? Even a that, you still all have your theology wrong. :-?

Hi JG,
For your information, the opening post is "Does the human soul conciously exist after death?" and I have proved with scripture what the soul is and you haven't even bothered anywhere to answer my question to what a soul is let alone prove its immortality. I asked you to show where my theology was wrong and you never replied and just labelled me as a "false teacher".
This is an open forum, is it not?

 

[Atonement]

Hi Folks
Drew has presented a rebutle to what the Lord Jesus said in specifically Matt 25:46.. He is now focused on the words ''everlasting punishement''

So lets take a look at what the actual Greek says about this.
First I will post the single verse in the english, then Greek, then we will look at the grammar..

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. KJV

46 και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον 1550 Textus Receptus

46 And shall go away these into punishment eternal, but the riteous into life eternal Word for word translation

Now lets take a look at the phraze '' punishment eternal'' in the context of the this verse that was Quoted By Jesus. these are his words, not mine.



46 και απελευσονται (''And shall go away''. This verb is in the future tense that follows a conjunction connecting it to the previous verse.)
ουτοι (''These''; meaning the goats.This is a pro noun )
εις κολασιν (''Into punishment''; Into is a preposition and punishment is a female noun. This is very important. this same Greek word κόλασιςcan can also be translated ''torment'' because of the context that it is in. none the less torment or punishment is a disciplinary reference to the him who suffers. OK LETS CONTINUE
αιωνιον (this word eternal which I have covered in my previous post post means without end, never to cease) οι ( but the) δε δικαιοι ( This plural adj means riteous) εις ζωην αιωνιον (into life eternal. Here you have the preposition ''into'' then the noun ''life'' and then we are back to that very same word ''eternal'' which means with out end, never to cease)

So this verse could read
46 And these shall go away into everlasting ''torment'': but the righteous into life eternal.

So I would encourage all to go do a word study on this word punishment in the context that it was written and spoken of by the Lord Jesus Christ and A GRAMMATICAL ANALYSIS of this verse..

Folks. while I have spent the past 2 hours working on this, this is nothing new. This is not something I discovered. This has been common knowledge for the past 2000 years. It has not been until the past few hundred years that this false doctrine of temporary punishment or torment has started to grow legs. This is apart of the falling away of the church that the Apostles spoke about (the apostasy). This belief to my knowledge and I am sure there is more is held by the Mormons, JW, UR folks, 7th day Adventists. I am sure there are others, but this is what comes to mind right now.

I am no theologian and don't claim to be. I am simple person who unerstands his bible, Some Greek and Hebrew. Most of all I have the Holy Spirit who helps me understand these things.

You know, I just came to the same conculsion about the same verse in the Hell thread, and I never read this post you made here. The Greek words that are used can not be manipulated. Yes I gave the shorter version of this very same thing, but the meaning is and will be the same.

Now what intrigues me is this, we have I believe 5, 6 maybe more people who believe in 'annihilation' yet they contradict among themselves in other threads. One say's it's the soul that get's annihilated, while the other say's no it's the spirit that returns to the Lord after giving up the ghost. One say's the soul is in non-exsistence, the other say's that punishment of the soul is not everlasting in time. And I could go on and on here. The common phrase now that I'm getting alot is this. Let so and so tell you because they have done more research and can explain it better then I can.... And they want to live in that kind of faith???

What I love about the truth, is that it can not be contradicted. If you study just here on this site alone how mine, jgredline, solo, lovely, and others who believe as we do, we do not contradict among ourselves. Is it just me, or am I the only one who has picked up on this??

 

[jgredline]

You know, I just came to the same conculsion about the same verse in the Hell thread, and I never read this post you made here. The Greek words that are used can not be manipulated. Yes I gave the shorter version of this very same thing, but the meaning is and will be the same.

Now what intrigues me is this, we have I believe 5, 6 maybe more people who believe in 'annihilation' yet they contradict among themselves in other threads. One say's it's the soul that get's annihilated, while the other say's no it's the spirit that returns to the Lord after giving up the ghost. One say's the soul is in non-exsistence, the other say's that punishment is not everlasting in time. And I could go on and on here. The common phrase now that I'm getting alot is this. Let so and so tell you because they have done more research and can explain it better then I can.... And they want to live in that kind of faith???

What I love about the truth, is that it can not be contradicted. If you study just here on this site alone how mine, jgredline, solo, lovely, and others who believe as we do, we do not contradict among ourselves. Is it just me, or am I the only one who has picked up on this??

Ha, I never really thought about this, but it is so true.

 

[Drew]

Now what intrigues me is this, we have I believe 5, 6 maybe more people who believe in 'annihilation' yet they contradict among themselves in other threads. One say's it's the soul that get's annihilated, while the other say's no it's the spirit that returns to the Lord after giving up the ghost.

I do not think you are correct here. My reading is that all the "annihilation" supporters believe that there is no immaterial soul to get annihilated in the first place - the human person does not "have" a soul in the sense that you believe he does. What specific post can you point to where anyone claimed that a "soul" gets annihilated?

The notion of the spirit returning to God only appears to be a contradiction to you, because you seem to bring a presumption that this "spirit" is an immortal consciousness-bearing entity. I do not believe that anyone has said this either. Please show us otherwise.

However, lets suppose that the annihilation supporters have indeed demonstrated inconsistency. Does this discredit the annihilation position? No it does not, especially if the supposed contradictions are "in the details" and not in the central assertion - which I understand to be that the lost are ultimately destroyed ("burned away" into nothing).

Even if the supporters of the "eternal hell" position are consistent with each other, this does nothing to support the correctness of their position. People probably consistently believed the world was flat - that does make it so.

 

[Atonement]

Oh yes Drew I read that from you before, but go read post from the others. Oh yes I have made a clear assumption, and it's just horrible that you're apart of that belief. It's found here all over the site. Take maybe two hours out of your time, and do not post anything, but go and re-read everything and write it down, and see how many contradictions there are from your fellow believers in annihilation.. They can not come to the same conclusion about the punishment, they can not come to the same conclusion about time and existence, they can not agree or come to the same conclusion about certain Scriptures and they most certainly can not come to the same conclusion on the soul. Just today alone Drew you had to step in and help guibox make his point to me in the hell thread. The influence of others can change the world huh?

 

[Drew]

Take maybe two hours out of your time, and do not post anything, but go and re-read everything and write it down, and see how many contradictions there are from your fellow believers in annihilation.

You made a very specific claim - that one (or more) supporters of the annihilation position claimed that "souls" get annihilated. It is your responsibility, not mine, to back up the claim with the facts. I would ask you to consider how this looks. You claim X. I ask you to support X with evidence. You then ask me to do the work of verifying your claim. Since you presumably have facts to back up your claim, why not just present them?

 

[Atonement]

However, lets suppose that the annihilation supporters have indeed demonstrated inconsistency. Does this discredit the annihilation position?

YES IT DOES

Because the truth can not be contradicted. In any way, shape or form. And to tell me it does not discredit the position of annihilation is a foolish statement. If I could cause inconsistency that there was no such things as angels, but they were only super-natural human beings, then I would be able to discredit the position of angels. If I were to demonstrate inconsistency in the Bible, then I could discredit the Bible because of contradictions. So by your statement, and the laws given to man by God to prove all things..

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

I can and should discredit your position and annihilation

 

[Atonement]

No infact it's not in my intentions to go around trying to find the error in your position, by the followers of this position. It's something I have noticed, and after careful examination, others will see it as well.

 

[Drew]

No infact it's not in my intentions to go around trying to find the error in your position, by the followers of this position. It's something I have noticed, and after careful examination, others will see it as well.

This is simply an unacceptable position for you to take. You cannot make claims about your opponent's position that you are not willing to substantiate.

You have 2 choices open to you in order to engage in fair debate:

1. Show readers where an annihilationist has claimed that the "soul" gets annihilated.

2. Withdraw the following statement:

One say's it's the soul that get's annihilated

 

[jgredline]

Drew
You your self have said that there is NO VERSE that supports annihalation.
Would u like me to find it and post it for you?
You know what I am talking about.

 

[guibox]

For the record, you ignoring my comments and bible texts and stating the same thing over and over again despite the fact that it has been discredited in no way implies I was in any need of assistance from your arguments, Atonment.

Jg has 'had me in the ropes' if one wants to call it that more times and in much more logical ways than you have. Don't flatter yourself.

Second, you, nor jg, have even come close to starting to dispute the comments that CP_Mike has on the nature of man.

If you guys want to keep back-slapping yourselves in claiming that we have proved nothing biblically despite the myriads of clear scriptural teaching on this subject and piously claim that we are heretics and you are promoting the truth, be my guest.

I guess assumption, circular arguments and playing the 'not believing Jesus' words' card counts for sound biblical theology for some.

You have continually ignored the arguments and bible texts that we have put forth to simply hammer away again and again on your two or three passages you keep providing as truth though you have not only not proven your premise of immortality for the wicked to begin with, but stick your head in the sand and ignore all the clear contradictions to it while crying 'twisting the words of Jesus!'

Yeah...okay.

 

[Drew]

Drew
You your self have said that there is NO VERSE that supports annihalation.
Would u like me to find it and post it for you?
You know what I am talking about.

If I ever wrote to the effect that there is no single verse, or even block of verses that support annihilation, I am inclined to change my mind and withdraw that statement (I, for one, am willing to admit my mistakes). I think that guibox has recently posted a number of Scriptures that do express the annihilation position in a single text block.

But even if this were not so, the annihilation position would not fail for that reason. Do you believe in the Trinity? Is the doctrine of the Trinity expressed in a single verse or block of verses?

 

[Atonement]

Second, you, nor jg, have even come close to starting to dispute the comments that CP_Mike has on the nature of man.

What did I tell you Jg?? Pushing it off on someone else because they have done more research and can explain it better.. What blind faith

despite the fact that it has been discredited in no way implies I was in any need of assistance from your arguments, Atonment.

Oh I beg to differ.. No one came running to my rescue.. BTW it's Atonement not Atonment..

You have continually ignored the arguments and bible texts that we have put forth to simply hammer away again and again on your two or three passages you keep providing as truth though you have not only not proven your premise of immortality for the wicked to begin with, but stick your head in the sand and ignore all the clear contradictions to it while crying 'twisting the words of Jesus!'

No what we have ignored is the emphasis you add to Scripture. We do not deny Scripture, or even twist or turn Scripture. We read it at face value for what it implies. Luke 16 you claim is a parable.. Well this shows me you know little about parables, therefore the Gospels which is a 1/4 of parables and therefore you want us to trust what you have to say?? OH how I beg to differ..

 

[jgredline]

If I ever wrote to the effect that there is no single verse, or even block of verses that support annihilation, I am inclined to change my mind and withdraw that statement (I, for one, am willing to admit my mistakes). I think that guibox has recently posted a number of Scriptures that do express the annihilation position in a single text block.

But even if this were not so, the annihilation position would not fail for that reason. Do you believe in the Trinity? Is the doctrine of the Trinity expressed in a single verse or block of verses?

Show me the block od scriptures you are refering to.
As far as your taking back what you said, I am cool with that. I too have taken things back that I have said and their is no shame in that

Show me the scriptures

 

[jgredline]

Jg has 'had me in the ropes' if one wants to call it that more times and in much more logical ways.

Why thank you guibox. I appreciate the honesty

Second, you, nor jg, have even come close to starting to dispute the comments that CP_Mike has on the nature of man.

Actually Guibox. I nor Atonement to the best of my Knowledge have really had a chance to debate CP because quite frankly, there are too many of you guys tag teaming like Pirahnas. Now that CP has started a new thread, we will proceeed to put him on the ropes as well


If you guys want to keep back-slapping yourselves in claiming that we have proved nothing biblically despite the myriads of clear scriptural teaching on this subject and piously claim that we are heretics and you are promoting the truth, be my guest.

I guess assumption, circular arguments and playing the 'not believing Jesus' words' card counts for sound biblical theology for some.

You have continually ignored the arguments and bible texts that we have put forth to simply hammer away again and again on your two or three passages you keep providing as truth though you have not only not proven your premise of immortality for the wicked to begin with, but stick your head in the sand and ignore all the clear contradictions to it while crying 'twisting the words of Jesus!'

gUIBOX
wE have not ignored anything. We have corrected you .



Yeah...okay.

 

[Drew]

The fact that there may be some inconsistencies among the views of those who hold the annihilation position is not a measure of the correctness of that position. Millions of children consistently believe that Santa Claus flies around on a sled pulled by 12 reindeer, etc.

Oh I beg to differ.. No one came running to my rescue..

I attempted to provide my take on what guibox was saying. Again, this should not be seen as indicating a problem with the annihilation position. He expressed a view, I expressed the same view in different words, with a motivation to clarify, that's all.

Atonement: Are you or are you not going to either substantiate your claim or withdraw it?

 

[guibox]

Atonement,

You are becoming more and more like oscar. I especially like you 'nudge, nudge' wink' 'wink' comments to jg. Just a couple of 'good ol' boys' in the theological world, aren't you?

You are denying scripture because you try to make words like 'death', 'destroy' 'destruction' 'perishing' which are always used to mean exactly that when applying to the wicked in CONTRAST to 'everlasting life' ,'eternal life' and 'immortality',
mean the exact same thing but 'continual conscious torment'

And all this with no lingustic or contextual reason for doing so