Double Prosperity

[CalledToServe]

HI Mike.

glad you could join us.


Let see where we agree as you have stated that you dont agree with the "op".

I'm going to reply to this as well.

Ive stated that as Sons of God we have rights within the Kingdom of Heaven...........and these rights include access to God and his provision for our ministry.
Agree or disagree?

As Christians, there is no such thing as rights. We have a choice to either follow God or to not follow Him. We are to wholly submit ourselves to Him. Having rights implies that we are equals to God and there isn't anyone that is equal.

Ive stated that Salvation is more then pardon for sins, but its a restoration of our position within the family of God.
agree or disagree?

Salvation deals with spiritual death and nothing more. We are members of the body of Christ, which scripturally means the antithesis of a family. We are all part of one body not a group of individuals.

Ive stated that God does not want us sick, and that Jesus came to heal, and sent us out to do the same according to Mark 16:14, and that because Christ is in us, and his power as well, that we are to access the Power of Christ to heal and "lay our hands on the sick" and they shall recover".......that this is just a part of the ministry the same as leading someone to the Lord.
Agree or disagree?

Mark 16:14 is an addition to the Bible from the early Medieval period. However, that verse does not have anything to do with what you want it to say. It deals with Jesus rebuking His disciples for their lack of faith and their refusal to believe those that saw Him after He rose from the dead.

Ive stated that "riches in Glory" are the divine prosperity to equip and enable a believer both spiritually and materially to do the work of God they have been called to do.
Ive stated that its God's obligation to furnish the ministry and our obligation to be obedient to the call.....Ive stated that we access the "riches in Glory" according to Mark 11:23,24 and this is always to do the work of Christ, through us, in the earth..
agree or disagree.

Mark 11:23-24 has nothing to do with riches in Glory. It deals with faith and prayer to supply our personal needs. It goes hand in hand with Matthew 6:15, which is about forgiveness.

Ive said that the Blessing of Abraham is our Inheritance according to Romans 4:1 and that Deut 28:1-13 explains what these blessings are..
Ive said that our rights to have this inheritance is also established based on the fact we are "joint heirs" who are "in Christ".
agree or disagree.

Romans is a letter to the JEWISH Christians living in Rome. This is why Paul writes, "Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh." Paul is writing a truth since he was Jewish and the letter is addressed to Jews. The entire context of the scripture is about forgiving others and how you will be blessed because the Lord will not count your sin against you if you forgive others. It says nothing about the inheritance you claim.

Deuteronomy is part of the Mosaic Covenant between God and Jews. It does not apply to Gentiles. By Jesus being the Messiah, He fulfilled this part of the Mosaic Covenant with Israel.

Ive stated that sickness, poverty, and destruction, are a part of the Devil's ministry,(John 10:10) and that we as Christians are to "destroy the works of the devil", using our Sonship rights to access the Power of God in our ministry exactly as Jesus came to do in his ministry because our ministry is the same as His, as its JESUS who is IN US doing it through us.
Agree or disagree?

You'd be mistaken since Isaiah 45:7 states that all things come from God, both the good and bad. By using John 10:10 as your basis shows a severe lack of understanding on what the passage talks about. It deals with Jesus instructing His disciples on how to be teachers and leading fellow Christians in that capacity in verses 11-18. In verse 10, Jesus is specifically talking about spiritual life and how Christians will not experience spiritual death. He is using a parable comparing spiritual life/spiritual death against physical life/death. Death does come suddenly with the result of stealing, killing, and destroying spiritual life just like a thief would come for their physical possessions and life.

K[/QUOTE]

 

[Kidron]

I'm going to reply to this as well.



As Christians, there is no such thing as rights. We have a choice to either follow God or to not follow Him. We are to wholly submit ourselves to Him. Having rights implies that we are equals to God and there isn't anyone that is equal.

Brother, we only have no rights, as long as we are not "sons of God".
But if we are, then we have the rights of a family member, within the Kingdom of God.....
Are you a Son of God, then you have a position in the family, and you have rights and entitlements to the provision of God.
You bible defines this as your "inheritance".





Salvation deals with spiritual death and nothing more. We are members of the body of Christ, which scripturally means the antithesis of a family. We are all part of one body not a group of individuals.

According to Jesus, your were "healed" by his stripes"......Isaiah 53:5
His stripes are a part of the death, burial, and resurrection that gained your salvation, so to deny this "health" part of salvation, is to deny the scripture.




Mark 16:14 is an addition to the Bible from the early Medieval period. However, that verse does not have anything to do with what you want it to say. It deals with Jesus rebuking His disciples for their lack of faith and their refusal to believe those that saw Him after He rose from the dead.

If you study manuscript evidence you will discover that the "received text" that is the "testus receptus" uses early and later manuscripts.
And this text in Mark, as found in your bible, is not a mistake as you would suggest, but is the great commission, including the part about "laying on of hands", and is the ministry given to all believers.
Trust your bible, billions have.
Its quite accurate and doesn't need anyone's commentaries to correct it.
As a matter of fact, trying to be a bible corrector instead of a bible believer, is never a good idea.




Mark 11:23-24 has nothing to do with riches in Glory. It deals with faith and prayer to supply our personal needs. It goes hand in hand with Matthew 6:15, which is about forgiveness.


Mark 11:23,24 tells you how to access Philippians 4:19, for the purpose of ministry and personal needs.
This is connected to Proverbs 22:10 as well as John 10:10 and all of this is based on Faith which accesses God's provision for service, which is our right of entitlement based
on the fact that we are become a Son of the Most High..
We have rights, we have position, and we access this by Faith.....
We have the very power of CHRIST in us, as he is IN US.





Romans is a letter to the JEWISH Christians living in Rome. This is why Paul writes, "Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh."...

You bible says in Romans 4:11 that Abraham is the "father of all of them that Believe".
Do you believe?
If so, then try believing that scripture.
And also, your bible says that "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, for instruction in righteous...........17: so that the man of God may be perfect...

so, is Romans "scripture?
Are Christians "men/women of God".
Then , Romans, as "scripture" as according to your bible, is for every believer. 2nd Timothy 3:16.
My advice to you is to put away the commentaries as its very easy to be confused by commentaries.

Deuteronomy is part of the Mosaic Covenant between God and Jews. It does not apply to Gentiles. By Jesus being the Messiah, He fulfilled this part of the Mosaic Covenant with Israel.


Romans 4:11, as i explained and as the bible states, says that Abraham is your Father if you are saved, and because of this, his blessings, in Deut 28:1-13 are yours.




You'd be mistaken since Isaiah 45:7 states that all things come from God, both the good and bad. By using John 10:10 as your basis shows a severe lack of understanding on what the passage talks about. It deals with Jesus instructing His disciples on how to be teachers and leading fellow Christians in that capacity in verses 11-18. In verse 10, Jesus is specifically talking about spiritual life and how Christians will not experience spiritual death. He is using a parable comparing spiritual life/spiritual death against physical life/death. Death does come suddenly with the result of stealing, killing, and destroying spiritual life just like a thief would come for their physical possessions and life.


Actually John 10:10 says that the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy, and 1st John 3:8 says that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.
Then your bible in the gospels shows you how he did it.
He cleansed the lepers, healed the sick, raised the dead, etc.
Right now the same Jesus, and the same power of Jesus is in every believer, who is "in Christ", and we access his power, to do his Work (1st John 3:8) by faith.
We equip ourselves according to Ephesians 6:10-18 and we use the "riches in Glory" (Phil 4:19) according to Paul to meet the "needs" that the ministry requires.

Brother, we are not toothless, weak, and powerless.
We are Sons of God, Soldiers of the Cross, and we have the Power of Christ within us, and the divine provisions of God for us.
WE are more then conquerors through Christ..
We are warriors of Light and have the very God of all creation as our defender, our supplier, and our leader.
We, as children of the KING, are not to be afraid, sick, weak, confused, helpless, or broke.
We are to be strong in the power of HIS MIGHT.
And his might is mighty, and nothing can stand against it....,.not even the gates of hell.
This is our inheritance, and our entitlement to his "riches in Glory", because we are SONS of God.
We have exactly the same access to all God has, all God is, and all God can do, as Jesus has, as he IS God.
And He IS IN us.
Thats power.
Thats authority.
Thats divine prosperity.
Thats Sonship rights..
Thats Christianity.






K

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[Drew]

What would happen is that millions of sick Christians would begin to place their faith in the fact of their salvation right to be well and whole, and would recover, and then all these would be able to preach the gospel, minister the gospel, and do the work of God.

I see no Biblical evidence for this.

Yes, Jesus is healing the world. But I believe the only thing we can conclude with any certainty is that this healing is unfolding in the general setting of the lengthy narrative that began with the initiation of the kingdom 2000 years ago, and will only finally reach its fulfillment in the future.

So, yes, the world is being healed. But its not happening instantly. So even though God is at work, healing the world "physically", no one individual living in this "in-between time" - the time during which the kingdom is advancing, but has not won the final victory - is promised healing with certainty.

Paul was quite clear about this in 1 Corinthians 15:

"He (Jesus) must rule until all enemies are defeated"

This text settles the issue - the kingdom is here, Jesus is ruling, but He has not yet fully defeated all enemies. And so, sadly, even the most faithful believers will still get sick and die.

I suggest you are taking the Biblical theme of the healing of the world (a correct idea) and seeing it is as applicable and a finished work in the setting of each person's life. I do not think the Bible teaches this - the healing is a cosmic healing is taking place slowly over time. No one person, this side of Jesus' returning to defeat the last enemy - death - is promised freedom from death and sickness.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

God wants your standard of living to reflect who he is.
Is he the god of poverty?
Is he the god of sickness?
Is he the god of misery?
Then your lifestyle is to reflect the KING you serve.
Thats a fact.
You are a child of THE KING.
And the King of Glory, who created the very GOLD in "them there hills", knows a thing or 2 about Prosperity.

Thank you, that explains perfectly why all those Christians in Africa are suffering. Stupid me, I was wasting my time fundraising for them to build wells and buy farm equipment and livestock. How silly of me; all I need to do is leave them alone so they can "reflect" their lifestyles after God without me needing to lift a finger. How convenient! Clearly I can now buy that Ferrari I've always wanted. Praises all around! Never before has it been so easy for a rich man to enter the Gates of Heaven.

 

[reba]

Darkhorse ,

 

[Pard]

I don't wish to engage in this argument, but I do feel that it ought to be pointed out (and it hasn't yet been pointed out) that both "poverty" and "wealth" are standards set by the world. The Bible doesn't say "Ye shalt be in poverty if thou gross incometh is less than $23,000.00" nor does the Bible say "Ye shalt be wealth if though gross incometh is more than $250,000.00." The government is the one who sets the poverty level, and the government is the one who decides what is wealthy. The government is of the world.

Sure, the Bible speaks ABOUT wealth and poverty, but it doesn't say what they are. So, what's poverty? Because I see people with much less money than me enjoying life much more. And I see people with much more money than me enjoying life much less.

 

[Danus]

Excellent point Pard.

To me real poverty is found outside of God, and real prosperity is found in Christ. One can have all of the money and things in the world and be dirt poor.

We all know this one, Mark 8:36
New International Version (NIV)
36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?

The only true wealth and inheritance is in the salvation we have in Jesus Christ. This is obvious to those who are in that. All others have a hard time understanding this and are left to worldly descriptions of what wealth is.

The devil has capitalized on this well in recent years by twisting the scriptures to entice people who want to know God, in to his own trap. There is no more sinister message than that of the WOF movement.

 

[heymikey80]

"The poor are blessed, for the Kingdom of God is theirs."

 

[CalledToServe]

.........................

1. Show me scripture that says that we have rights because we're sons of God. Also point me to the scripture that says that Christians are Sons of God.

2. The healing that is being described in Isaiah 53:5 is the restoration of spiritual life. It's funny to see how you twist and warp the scripture.

3.Again, I will state that the earliest manuscripts lack the additions to Mark 16. This is because the Catholic Church tampered with them and added the text. I will reject the additions because it is a false teaching.

4. Philippians 4:19 is taken out of context from the entire passage. It deals with the tithes the church at Philippians sent to Paul and this is him thanking them. If you notice but Paul writes, "And my God will meet all your needs..." This makes it clear that the letter is intended for some of the unbelievers in the church due to the use of "my God". In all of Paul's other letters he usually says, "our" and other plural possessive pronouns. Another thing is that he says, "needs..." not wants, desires, God is an ATM machine. Needs are completely different than the other things.

Proverbs 22:10 has no bearing on this pop theology of yours. However, Proverbs 22:2 does have bearing, Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all.

5. My advice to you is take this as a loving rebuke. You are twisting scripture and ripping things out of context to create a new theology of God the ATM machine. The Bible says no such thing. I rebuke you for being rude and for failing to account for context of the scripture. Use the entire chapter from now on, not little snippets that you think supports God is an ATM.

6. No, according to scripture, God is the father of all if we are saved. Deuteronomy was fulfill when Jesus was crucified, buried, and resurrected.

7. Funny but my scripture says, "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." I do not see the devil named here. You're taking the latter half of verse 8 from 1 John 3 while ignoring the first half. I rebuke you in a loving manner to show you the error of your way since you cannot parse scripture like that. The full context of the verse says, "The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

The devil's work was the result of him tempting Adam and Eve in the garden and giving us spiritual death.

We've already covered Philippians 4:19, so I will rebuke for taking three words out of the entire verse out of context and twisting it.

Ephesians 6:10-18 deals with how to deal with spiritual warfare and to use the Word of God to do it.

 

[jasoncran]

paul calls him a slave unto the gospel and our LORD. hardly claiming his rights.

 

[CalledToServe]

paul calls him a slave unto the gospel and our LORD. hardly claiming his rights.

Excellent point Jason.

 

[Drew]

God wants your standard of living to reflect who he is.
Is he the god of poverty?
Is he the god of sickness?
Is he the god of misery?
Then your lifestyle is to reflect the KING you serve.
Thats a fact.
You are a child of THE KING.
And the King of Glory, who created the very GOLD in "them there hills", knows a thing or 2 about Prosperity.

I think you may be getting your "kingdom" models mixed up.

Yes, if you are a child of a "king" in the model of the world in general, you should expect wealth. Why is that? Because the "wordly" model of kingship means the king and his kin take advantage of the poor.

Not so with King Jesus and the citizens of His kingdom. Obedient members of that kingdom follow Jesus clear prescription to deny self.

 

[Drew]

Ive stated that sickness, poverty, and destruction, are the fruit of the Devil's ministry,(John 10:10) and that we as Christians are to "destroy the works of the devil", using our Sonship rights to access the Power of God and use it in our ministry by faith exactly as Jesus did,...and this is because our ministry is exactly the same as His, as its JESUS who is IN US executing his ministry through us.
Agree or disagree?

Agree. But to "destroy poverty" means to give excess wealth to the poor.

 

[Kidron]

Isaiah puts your view out the window. According to Isaiah 45:7, all things come from God.

I form the light and create darkness
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

This is reinforced by Job 1:12, The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

There was also a time that God told Saul to kill them all, including the kids and the cattle.
The good news is that we are now under Grace and a new covenant..
The other good news is that we are told to rightly divide the word (2nd Timothy 2:15) of God so that we do not misapply old testament acts and try to jam them into a New Testament situation..

You also recall that we no longer solve the sin issue by burning animals?
You are aware of this?
And did you know that in the Old Testament they stoned women who were doing what Jesus forgives in the New Testament?

So, you have to be very careful with how you handle the scriptures or you'll end up eventually to the point that you attribute everything that Satan does to Jesus.
But, on the other hand, you already do according to your position on Isaiah as you are trying very hard to attribute all bad things that happen to anyone to Jesus.
Thats a slippery slope you are trying to climb, and i would not want to be the one who wanted to promote such an idea to the world.
I would never attribute sickness, disease, or tragedy to the very one who said he came to "destroy the works of the devil, and who said he came to give us life and that more abundantly and by who's stripes we were healed.

And finally.
regarding your unnecessary sarcastic comment "pop" gospel.
very inappropriate, and very misguided.
Let me help.,
To begin with, im not sharing the "gospel".
The Gospel, you see, is a different message, that proclaims that Jesus came, died for sins, was buried for 3 days, then resurrected, and ascended, and that this finished work is available to pardon sins based on the hearing placing faith in it.
CTS, That is the "Gospel" message, or "The Gospel" ...1st Corinthians 15:3,4.
So, i appreciate that you confused "The Gospel" with my sharing a revelation regarding our Salvation position of entitlement " In Christ" which gives us access to all the Father has, and all the Father is, and all the Father can do.
Calledtoserve, its ok., as i know you are trying.





K

 

[CalledToServe]

There was also a time that God told Saul to kill them all, including the kids and the cattle.
The good news is that we are now under Grace and a new covenant..
The other good news is that we are told to rightly divide the word (2nd Timothy 2:15) of God so that we do not misapply old testament acts and try to jam them into a New Testament situation..

You also recall that we no longer solve the sin issue by burning animals?
You are aware of this?
And did you know that in the Old Testament they stoned women who were doing what Jesus forgives in the New Testament?

So, you have to be very careful with how you handle the scriptures or you'll end up eventually to the point that you attribute everything that Satan does to Jesus.
But, on the other hand, you already do according to your position on Isaiah as you are trying very hard to attribute all bad things that happen to anyone to Jesus.
Thats a slippery slope you are trying to climb, and i would not want to be the one who wanted to promote such an idea to the world.
I would never attribute sickness, disease, or tragedy to the very one who said he came to "destroy the works of the devil, and who said he came to give us life and that more abundantly and by who's stripes we were healed.





K

Then you are being unscriptual and creating a false teaching. Proverbs 30:5-6, "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."

Isaiah is not part of the Mosaic Covenant. It is part of prophecy concerning the future of Israel and the world. Your view contradicts what God has said and now you are proven to be a liar. Luke 21:33 says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." This is also stated in Mark 13:31.

Heed your own words because you not following them in your parsing out words from entire passages to support your own pet theology of God the ATM machine.

 

[Kidron]

Then you are being unscriptual



you are trying to attribute sickness to Jesus, by using the Old Testament covenant and scriptures.
So, id say if anyone is being "unscriptural", its not me., my brother







and creating a false teaching. Proverbs 30:5-6, "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."


Yes, his words are apples of God in pictures of silver, they are light for life, they are a lamp unto our feet, and you are to rightly divide them...
Now once again, you should never try to take an old testament passage that is not aimed at the Body of Christ, and try to aim it at them.

Isaiah is not part of the Mosaic Covenant. It is part of prophecy concerning the future of Israel and the world. Your view contradicts what God has said and now you are proven to be a liar. Luke 21:33 says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." This is also stated in Mark 13:31.


Well, i appreciate that you can become confused by the scriptures and then call me a Liar.
I wont call you a liar, i'll just remind you that if you wrongly divide the word, then you end up with your type of confused theology.


Heed your own words because you not following them in your parsing out words from entire passages to support your own pet theology of God the ATM machine.


That you are angry, sarcastic, and rude, ......does this make you right?
Not quite.
However, if you care to read what im sharing, and actually respond to what im sharing, them im certain we can find some common ground to agree, as i dont really believe that you are as hateful and as hatefilled as you sound..

But i'll leave that up to a Mod to decide..
Np


Have a good day..




K

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[CalledToServe]

.......................

1. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. Therefor He is God, so yes I can attribute everything bad to God even under the new covenant. Are you saying that Jesus is not God?

2. All of the scripture is aimed at the Body of Christ. What did Jesus, His disciples, and Paul teach from? The answer is the Old Testament aka Tanakh. The New Testament wasn't written yet when Jesus did His ministry.

3. The confusion is entirely yours since you are the one taking scriptures out of context. I did not call you a liar. I reiterated what God said to those that manipulate His Word.

4. I am not angry at you nor would I be. I also am not being sarcastic or even rude. I have been loving and rebuking your false doctrine with the entirety of God's Word, not a few hand picked words out of context from the entire chapter and verse.

I have read what you have shared and I've countered it with sound doctrine. I suggest you hit your knees and pray to God for guidance because that is what I have been doing for you.

Just because you do not agree with what I've said by rebuking you then correcting you on doctrine is not hatefilled. In fact, I made it clear that I was doing it out of love, which is what Jesus commands us to do.

 

[Drew]

1. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. Therefor He is God, so yes I can attribute everything bad to God even under the new covenant.

As much as I entirely disagree with Kidron re his views on the matters of material prosperity and health, I suggest it is clear that the Bible is an evolving narrative, not a set of timeless truths. Therefore, one has to be careful in transposing texts from the Old Testament to now - things changed profoundly at the cross.

Even though I believe Kidron is not understanding the following the right way, he (she?) is indeed correct in believing that the work of Jesus effected a fundamental change in the way the world works, in every sense. In short, at the cross, "the curse" was defeated and the world is indeed presently on a "healing" trajectory that it was not before.

Again, I entirely reject Kidron's conclusions, but I believe we need to acknowledge that the world changed profoundly at the cross - things this side of the cross are not necessarily the same as they were before the cross.

 

[jasoncran]

As much as I entirely disagree with Kidron re his views on the matters of material prosperity and health, I suggest it is clear that the Bible is an evolving narrative, not a set of timeless truths. Therefore, one has to be careful in transposing texts from the Old Testament to now - things changed profoundly at the cross.

Even though I believe Kidron is not understanding the following the right way, he (she?) is indeed correct in believing that the work of Jesus effected a fundamental change in the way the world works, in every sense. In short, at the cross, "the curse" was defeated and the world is indeed presently on a "healing" trajectory that it was not before.

Again, I entirely reject Kidron's conclusions, but I believe we need to acknowledge that the world changed profoundly at the cross - things this side of the cross are not necessarily the same as they were before the cross.

so god defintion of sin has changed? hmm for the most part no.

 

[CalledToServe]

As much as I entirely disagree with Kidron re his views on the matters of material prosperity and health, I suggest it is clear that the Bible is an evolving narrative, not a set of timeless truths. Therefore, one has to be careful in transposing texts from the Old Testament to now - things changed profoundly at the cross.

Even though I believe Kidron is not understanding the following the right way, he (she?) is indeed correct in believing that the work of Jesus effected a fundamental change in the way the world works, in every sense. In short, at the cross, "the curse" was defeated and the world is indeed presently on a "healing" trajectory that it was not before.

Again, I entirely reject Kidron's conclusions, but I believe we need to acknowledge that the world changed profoundly at the cross - things this side of the cross are not necessarily the same as they were before the cross.

If the Bible is not "timeless truths" then why follow it? With that thinking we can just do away with the Bible altogether and say it has no value to us now.

What Jesus changed through His death, burial, and resurrection was the fulfillment of the atoning sacrifice for sin. He fulfilled that part of the law that is the Mosaic covenant. He also changed who was in charge of death since He snatched the keys away. Nothing else has changed.

In the future, if you are going to split up my thought then make sure you represent accurately what I said. You have altered my position to the point it is unrecognizable in its original form. The first two sentences establishes the basis behind the question of "Are you saying that Jesus is not God?"