Drinking alcohol (not drunkenness)

[Elijah674]

You're right, let me rephrase that.

"Uh, I don't see a problem with OTHER PEOPLE'S* church figureheads drinking in public or private"

* Our church is dry. It's a Pentecostal thing

Sounds as they understand Christ drinking NO vinegar (obtained from fermentation) at His death? Matt. 27:48

Yet, false doctrines are also like discribed as such wine, huh? Rev. 17:2

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

leave it to the sda types to say that one. uh jesus was accussed of being a wine bibbler and he never refuted that.

he turned the water into WINE. first miracle, oh btw i hate alcohol. but i wont base a whole doctrine and condemn the brethren for something they do in moderation.

 

[Hitch]

I wonder every time this comes up, whether our country might not be drenched in the blood of innocents ,(abortion) had the American church concentrated on prohibiting that which is scripturally proscribed rather than mob vendettas.

 

[Sam21]

I have a different question for you all. I am placing it here in the general discussion because I want the input of non-believers as well. From the searching I have done on here I have come to the conclusion that most of you feel that whether or not alcohol is is wrong is a personal decision. Some people are okay with it and some are not. However most people do agree that the alcohol is not the problem so much as drunkenness. So on to my question:

Does your opinion of a person drinking alcohol change if the person has a position in the church? An Elder? Pastor?

Does your opinion change if the person chooses to drink in their private home as opposed to in public (such as a restaurant)?

Again, I would like the input of non-church-going people on this as well. What do you think of a church-going person you see in public drinking alcohol? Is your opinion different if the person has a position in the church instead of just being a church member?

Remember this is not referring to someone getting drunk. This is merely the sight of a person drinking alcohol.

Thank you for your input!

I believe adults in the NT(and old)drink a low alcoholic wine because it was the only drink that could be preserved,today we have a multitude of drinks through refrigeration and canning methods,so why chose to drink something that has the potential of self destruction? Why pick up a rattle snake if you do not have to? I was impressed by the Holy Spirit at 14 years of age to stay away from alcohol,drugs,tobacco,porn,those are vices folks, we need to stay away from all appearance of evil. Yes they drink a little wine in the NT, they also rode donkeys and wore robes,today we don't need donkeys and robes and certainly not alcohol.

 

[jasoncran]

I believe adults in the NT(and old)drink a low alcoholic wine because it was the only drink that could be preserved,today we have a multitude of drinks through refrigeration and canning methods,so why chose to drink something that has the potential of self destruction? Why pick up a rattle snake if you do not have to? I was impressed by the Holy Spirit at 14 years of age to stay away from alcohol,drugs,tobacco,porn,those are vices folks, we need to stay away from all appearance of evil. Yes they drink a little wine in the NT, they also rode donkeys and wore robes,today we don't need donkeys and robes and certainly not alcohol.

need donkeys? there are places in america where those are still used! puerto rico and the army and marines use them in combat. i know i had them at my disposal. donkey are great at keeping wolves away from sheep. they do it naturally.

 

[Sam21]

need donkeys? there are places in america where those are still used! puerto rico and the army and marines use them in combat. i know i had them at my disposal. donkey are great at keeping wolves away from sheep. they do it naturally.

Donkeys I can live with,however one only needs to look at all the needless deaths on our highways,abused children,adultery,that occured because of alcohol to know that this is one thing a christian needs to avoid.

 

[jasoncran]

Donkeys I can live with,however one only needs to look at all the needless deaths on our highways,abused children,adultery,that occured because of alcohol to know that this is one thing a christian needs to avoid.

it depends on the person. some can drink in moderation. i know some that do. if one cant handle alocohol then one shouldnt drink. i dont like alcohol as i have a good reason behind that hate that has kept me from it but i can based on scripture say that none should drink.

adultery? shoot one doesnt need drinks to do that, though it makes the judgment of the drinker impaired but that again is placing oneself in a bad spot. if i drank i wouldnt go to a bar to get the buzz, it would be at home or a restaurant. or maybe a sports bar.

trust me when i was the other end of an adulteress afair it didnt happen with alcohol at all. and i wasnt married at the time she was but was seperated.

 

[Sam21]

it depends on the person. some can drink in moderation. i know some that do. if one cant handle alocohol then one shouldnt drink. i dont like alcohol as i have a good reason behind that hate that has kept me from it but i can based on scripture say that none should drink.

adultery? shoot one doesnt need drinks to do that, though it makes the judgment of the drinker impaired but that again is placing oneself in a bad spot. if i drank i wouldnt go to a bar to get the buzz, it would be at home or a restaurant. or maybe a sports bar.

trust me when i was the other end of an adulteress afair it didnt happen with alcohol at all. and i wasnt married at the time she was but was seperated.

The first 4 years I was saved 14 to 18 I did not know the bible and hardly attended church ,yet the Holy Spirit kept me away from alcohol like you would keep gasoline away from a match. I went to the state finals in wrestling three years and every year everyone drink alcohol(and got bombed)but me, that is the power of God, I would tell any christian, stay away from alcohol like you would stay away from porn,they both have great powers to make you do what you would never do in your right mind. This isn't the first century where the only drink is wine.

 

[jasoncran]

porn is an all different matter then alcohol. but i'm sure you or most on this site wouldnt like me laying guilt trips on them on tv. i feel that for the most part tv is very anti-christian in nature. but some can watch those shows. i cant.

when i talk about tv shows ie transformers and sg1 those arent so anti-christian in nature. shoot the transformers are in the 80s are the ones i like the most.

 

[WIP]

so why chose to drink something that has the potential of self destruction?

You do realize that over-consumption of water will cause the same problem, over-consumption of sugar can be self-destructive, over-consumption of food can be self-destructive, over-dose of medications can be self-destructive even faster than over-dosing on whiskey, over-consumption of oxygen can be self-destructive, need I continue?

The point is that if you fear alcohol or anything else is a potential stumbling block for you then it is best avoided by you. One must be careful, however, about judging others based on one's own hang-ups or concerns. In some circles, especially in past decades, dancing was considered wrong despite Biblical references to dancing as a form of worship so people put their nose in the air against dancing. As already mentioned, going to see a movie has at times been considered wrong yet watching actors on a live stage was okay. Sounds legalistic to me. We have a rather significant population of Amish in this area. I was listening to one of them explain some of their rules to me. Rules about the construction of their hat and how the rim and hat band had very specific dimensions that must be followed. How their clothing had to be constructed to exact details. Little of what they do is Biblical and yet it has come to the point that their bishops now teach their rules as Biblical. The original intention of the tradition was to resist secular temptations that might become stumbling blocks but they have turned the traditions into pseudo-Biblical rules.

 

[Pard]

You do realize that over-consumption of water will cause the same problem

Yeah, but seriously, do you know how much you need to drink in order to overdose on water? I drink 6 liters a day (3x the recommended amount) and I have never overdosed on water. The only time anyone has died solely because of drinking to much water is a woman who was in a water drinking contest in which they forbid contestants from using the bathroom. That's the key, if you can go to the bathroom than water overdosing will become nearly impossible without some further complication that you cannot help. The body will immediately direct water to the bladder if no water is needed.

Also, the only way you can over-dose on oxygen is to pump more than 20% oxygen into a room and then light a match. I don't think that counts, because than I could say you can over-dose on methane by turning the stove on and than lighting a match 30 minutes later. Or if you are diving underwater, or if you are in a mechanical lung. None of these are comparable to overdosing on alcohol/drugs.

totopic

I agree, that everything you listed (save water and the oxygen) can be self-destructive. However:

What are more than 75% of domestic dispute calls the cause of? Alcohol.

What is the most abused substance in the United States? Alcohol.

Which substance fuels the majority of passion-crimes (rape and murder, almost always to a significant other)? Alcohol.

Which substance kills the most people every year in the United States? Alcohol.

I don't care if people drink alcohol. But it's not right to lessen it's influence and destruction because I don't mind people who drink. Alcohol can be a very dangerous substance, much more dangerous than any schedule I controlled substance.

 

[Elijah674]

The first 4 years I was saved 14 to 18 I did not know the bible and hardly attended church ,yet the Holy Spirit kept me away from alcohol like you would keep gasoline away from a match. I went to the state finals in wrestling three years and every year everyone drink alcohol(and got bombed)but me, that is the power of God, I would tell any christian, stay away from alcohol like you would stay away from porn,they both have great powers to make you do what you would never do in your right mind. This isn't the first century where the only drink is wine.

--Elijah here:
We are told that the Jews are blind, yet, Christ in Matt. 4:4 gives this in His Eternal Word.
Pro. 23
[29] Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
[30] They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
[31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
[32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
[33] Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. (sounds like the spiritual babbling of Rev. 17:1-5!)
[34] Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
[35] They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

And who of those Rev. 17:1-5 ones have changed a lick, the same old stuff day in & day out!? And the Blind Jews??
It is interesting that this surely has a 'spiritual' Truth to it as well! Rev. 17:6
As satan's FERMENTED doctrines which are A OK some say, (bottom/line) as long as you do not get drunk on them! And Christ created their stuff? SICK!

 

[reba]

hitch #23

Jason #27

 

[WIP]

Yeah, but seriously, do you know how much you need to drink in order to overdose on water? I drink 6 liters a day (3x the recommended amount) and I have never overdosed on water. The only time anyone has died solely because of drinking to much water is a woman who was in a water drinking contest in which they forbid contestants from using the bathroom. That's the key, if you can go to the bathroom than water overdosing will become nearly impossible without some further complication that you cannot help. The body will immediately direct water to the bladder if no water is needed.

Also, the only way you can over-dose on oxygen is to pump more than 20% oxygen into a room and then light a match. I don't think that counts, because than I could say you can over-dose on methane by turning the stove on and than lighting a match 30 minutes later. Or if you are diving underwater, or if you are in a mechanical lung. None of these are comparable to overdosing on alcohol/drugs.

totopic

I agree, that everything you listed (save water and the oxygen) can be self-destructive. However:

What are more than 75% of domestic dispute calls the cause of? Alcohol.

What is the most abused substance in the United States? Alcohol.

Which substance fuels the majority of passion-crimes (rape and murder, almost always to a significant other)? Alcohol.

Which substance kills the most people every year in the United States? Alcohol.

I don't care if people drink alcohol. But it's not right to lessen it's influence and destruction because I don't mind people who drink. Alcohol can be a very dangerous substance, much more dangerous than any schedule I controlled substance.

You missed my point. Using your analogy then we must define some limits for what is sinful and what is not. Sin is sin, period. Being drunk is a sin. Drinking is not a sin. Over-indulgence in anything is a sin.

Incidentally, a oxygen is toxic to humans in high concentrations and lighting a match in a pure oxygen environment will only allow the match to burn rapidly for just a few moments until the fuel (the match) is consumed.

 

[Dennyh]

Thanks again for all the input. This is something I have been struggling with for some time; not drinking itself but being okay with others who do. I personally abstain completely from alcohol but that is my personal conviction and do not push that on others.

My opinion on other drinking in public as opposed to in private, especially those who have a position in the church, is this:

Drinking alcohol is much like having intimate relations with your spouse; there is nothing Biblically wrong with it but probably shouldn't be done in public.

The reason I feel this way is because someone like a church elder or Pastor are an example of the church and should be above reproach. If a Pastor and his wife are drinking alcohol with dinner at a restaurant it doesn't appear to be a problem on the surface. However at some point they have to get in the car and drive home (where I live there is no public transportation) which means someone is drinking and driving. (a definite no-no). How would you like it if your Pastor was in the paper being cited for DUI?

We are to abstain from the appearance of evil, we are to not place a stumbling block before our brother, and if our liberty causes our brother to sin then we should abstain in his presence. You have no way of knowing who is in your presence in a crowded restaurant. These coupled with the above statement of the underlying assumptions about the drive home are what I base my feelings on.

These are my personal feelings, I am not writing this to try to force them on anyone. This is where I feel God and I are on topic. However you feel is fine with me, that is between you and God. I will not judge you and ask you not to judge me.

I hope this doesn't sound too serious being written out as opposed to spoken because that was not my intention. I am really enjoying the interaction on this topic as well.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[reba]

Drinking alcohol is much like having intimate relations with your spouse; there is nothing Biblically wrong with it but probably shouldn't be done in public.

Probably? :shocked!


I would agree

 

[Elijah674]

You missed my point. Using your analogy then we must define some limits for what is sinful and what is not. Sin is sin, period. Being drunk is a sin. Drinking is not a sin. Over-indulgence in anything is a sin.

Incidentally, a oxygen is toxic to humans in high concentrations and lighting a match in a pure oxygen environment will only allow the match to burn rapidly for just a few moments until the fuel (the match) is consumed.

?? So a little sin is OK as long as we don't over do it, huh???? Look, did Christ create fermented (caused by 'fermentation or decay') Grape Juice? A sinless creator created a sin infested drink? I will NEVER BELIEVE that one!
--Elijah

 

[ronniechoate34]

There's actually pretty solid evidence that the use of the word wine not always refers to an alcoholic beverage. The word wine has also been used to describe plain old fruit juice.


Personally I believe that drinking is a sin.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Let's focus on the "Do's" as opposed to trying to make up out own contrived "don'ts." The scriptures tell us to be somber minded and vigilant and they also speak of the evils of drunkeness. This drunkeness does not refer exclusively to alcoholism BTW. Drunkeness could also refer to allowing oneself to be overwhelm with power, rage, passion, etc. So in a real way it is the very antithesis of moderation and can be applicable to many aspects of our lives.
So to bottom line this post, let's all try to keep ourselves in situations that do not corrupt our sober mindedness and push the limits of our self control.

 

[Hitch]

Abstainers never fear, I'll take your part