[_ Old Earth _] Earths Age

[Poor Old Spike]

..And how old is the earth? Are the "young earthers" right? Are the "old earthers" right?..

That's impossible to know because time is stretchy and flexible (as scientists have proven), so it might well have run at a slower (or faster) rate in the past..

 

[JohnDB]

"...there was evening and there was morning..."
This phrase is mentioned very often in the creation account.

"Evening" has a double meaning in Hebrew of obscure/chaos...
Just like "morning" has the meaning of clearing/order...
Meaning with the poetic way things were said that God brings order out of Chaos.

But also...
The time framed by evening and morning is nighttime...when things that you do are hidden according to the inference of the Ancient Near Eastern society. Meaning that God isn't telling how He did it.
"The secret things of The Lord belong to God..." And He doesn't seem to be sharing them at this point in time. He might one day...but it isn't today.

But it has been a huge speculation for scientists.
But what I find facinating is that even though God said that He made the Sun and Moon on the fourth day...all the scientists seem to say that it was first... making me doubt their theory to begin with.

 

[Pizza]

That's impossible to know because time is stretchy and flexible (as scientists have proven), so it might well have run at a slower (or faster) rate in the past..

My point exactly. "Time" as we define it, is a human invention.

 

[JacobsLadder]

People who say that the bible is not a science book, are correct that it doesn't describe atoms and the periodic table. Or metallurgy, rocket science and such.

However, it does talk a lot about things, in the background, which prove accurate when science discovers things.

God does not speak explicitly of rocket science. Nor does He speak explicitly of nuclear weapons.

He warns us of straying from a righteous path, and warns us of the consequences and the destruction we may bring upon ourselves.

God does not deceive. The Bible does not teach us to evaluate His words with scientific experiment.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

My point exactly. "Time" as we define it, is a human invention.

Actually, time is not a "human invention". Time was designed by God. He gave us the moon and stars to measure seasons. We, by God's design are caged by time. Time is used throughout the scriptures. It is not a human invention.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

"...there was evening and there was morning..."
This phrase is mentioned very often in the creation account.

"Evening" has a double meaning in Hebrew of obscure/chaos...
Just like "morning" has the meaning of clearing/order...
Meaning with the poetic way things were said that God brings order out of Chaos.

But also...
The time framed by evening and morning is nighttime...when things that you do are hidden according to the inference of the Ancient Near Eastern society. Meaning that God isn't telling how He did it.
"The secret things of The Lord belong to God..." And He doesn't seem to be sharing them at this point in time. He might one day...but it isn't today.

But it has been a huge speculation for scientists.
But what I find facinating is that even though God said that He made the Sun and Moon on the fourth day...all the scientists seem to say that it was first... making me doubt their theory to begin with.

I understand where you are going with this, I think.. However, it is my view that God did not expect the details of the way we were created, along with everything in this world, to by cryptic... That is using "morning" as clearing or "evening" being when He did things hidden from us.

IMO, the creation account is plain, simple, detailed and explicite in being six literal days and a day of rest. Not because God was tired.. but because it was finished, all was good and He was setting up a pattern in which humans function the best... six days of work.. to one day of rest and worship....

I have said this before and I will say it again.... As a Christian, I believe that God is all powerful, all knowing and present all places at one time.... As such a superior and worship worthy creator, the creation account, in six literal days is well within His capabilities.

So, God said He did it "this way".
God is capable of doing it "this way"
Therefore..... God did it "that way"

Why would I doubt it???? Just because some men have an opinion that is different? Just because these men are educated by other worldly men and knowledgeable.... wise one might say?

Remember what God does to men who concider themselves to be wise..... He shows them to be the fools that they are.

 

[JohnDB]

I understand where you are going with this, I think.. However, it is my view that God did not expect the details of the way we were created, along with everything in this world, to by cryptic... That is using "morning" as clearing or "evening" being when He did things hidden from us.

Not exactly what I meant.
Evening and morning frame the night...that is when things are hidden. What has been made clear are the things that I did talk about such as God creating order out of chaos and that the Sun being created on the fourth day...not first at all as stated in most secular scientific creation accounts.

The "cryptic" nature of how the first chapter of Genesis is written in has to do with in part because of the poetry translated into English. Also due to a very deliberate "number thingy" which is to signify that all men and God were meant to "Tabernacle" together.
This 3-4 numerology is a theme running through the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

But as to an actual literal 6-24hr time periods to create the Heavens and the Earth...I have absolutely no clue. God don't say, and He said that he wasn't going to and I really don't care one way or another.
The wealth of other messages coming out of the creation account are more than sufficient for me.

 

[Pizza]

Actually, time is not a "human invention". Time was designed by God. He gave us the moon and stars to measure seasons. We, by God's design are caged by time. Time is used throughout the scriptures. It is not a human invention.

Let me restate myself: "Time, as we define it, is a human invention."

 

[brujaq]

There is not enough time to create the heavens and the Earth and all its wonders period except as God tells us in his Word ''6 days'' .. You do not tell God ''OK we're doing our science now, you can go sit over there '' .. Who believes and teaches old Earth ? Who ridicules God's Word and people ? Who is ever learning but never coming to the Truth ? Who sits in the seat of mockers ? Who do you sit with ? There is true science for all and there is ever changing theories true or false .. There is a reason God give us his inspired written Word .. 22 The eye is the lamp of the body. You draw light into your body through your eyes, and light shines out to the world through your eyes. So if your eye is well and shows you what is true, then your whole body will be filled with light. 23 But if your eye is clouded or evil, then your body will be filled with evil and dark clouds. And the darkness that takes over the body of a child of God who has gone astray—that is the deepest, darkest darkness there is. Then if we become comfortable laying the Word aside you become vulnerable to anything cleverly devised, how would you know ? .. You must be grounded then answers can come in time .. But that's not all, we learn everything fits and seemingly the unrelated matters elsewhere can be recalled to inspire just the same in present matters requiring inspiration including science especially observing life and copying through tech the marvelous critter mechanisms and chemicals .. Creation itself is the science book and not from a simple single celled thing but complete from the beginning .. Abiogenesis, Bwahahaha , you step in that pile too not me ..
And to say the Bible is not a history book is ridiculous imo , it is the most true inspired account ever existed, and probably the only where you don't follow the money and also the true sword .. People are overwhelmed with fake news headlines then when tested and tried the truth may or may not come out once on the 4th page later in a one sentence retraction .. When someone tries to sell evolution to me I smell an unbearable stinking fart walked in the room , an abomination ..

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Let me restate myself: "Time, as we define it, is a human invention."

Sorry, I guess that I am not understanding what you mean by "as we define it". No worries.

 

[Poor Old Spike]

..When someone tries to sell evolution to me I smell an unbearable stinking fart walked in the room , an abomination ..

Yes, and I've noticed that many wildlife film makers in recent years have been using the word "animals" instead of the word "creatures", as if they're afraid to admit they were created by God.
For example they sometimes use the word "animal" when referring to things like insects, butterflies, jellyfish, lobsters etc, which sounds completely stupid..

 

[Pizza]

Sorry, I guess that I am not understanding what you mean by "as we define it". No worries.

What I am getting at, is that we define "time" on our own terms. Like we define everything else on our terms.
But the Bible warns us:

8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.… Isaiah 55:8-9

God gave us the Bible, and it's a good thing to read, study and live it. But I do not beleive that reading the Bible will ever give us the knowledge to understand His act of creation on such a level that we understand the physics behind it all. The very concept of space-time is so far above my head that I get dizzy thinking about it. But God does not get dizzy, it's easy for Him.

I do not believe that we can understand space-time, therefore we cannot understand TIME, on such a level that this argument can be resolved with EITHER side being "right" or "wrong". I have come to the conclusion that while God is not the author of confusion, we ourselves are, that is, we are the author of confusion when we take our opinion on such a heavy topic and assert that we, on a personal level, by simply reading the Bible, understand it all to the point that we think we have THE answer. NONE of us have the answer because we do NOT understand what time is, nor do most of us understand that the flow of time is not a constant. This is the basis of relativity, the idea that the passage of time, as one perceives it, is dependent on perspective given by speed - speed of the event, speed of the observer, speed relative between the two.

This is, again, why I assert that it is possible that BOTH sides are right. Oddly, my assertion that both sides are right offends, well, EVERYONE; and I see no way around that because of the human psychologial need to "be right". Given that psychology is the one thing I have NEVER even TRIED to study, I can't address that item.

 

[Edward]

Yes, and I've noticed that many wildlife film makers in recent years have been using the word "animals" instead of the word "creatures", as if they're afraid to admit they were created by God.
For example they sometimes use the word "animal" when referring to things like insects, butterflies, jellyfish, lobsters etc, which sounds completely stupid..

I noticed that too. Everything's animal now, lol. But they do not account for the Lion. If a man stalk and kill a lion and then eat it, does it not become human then?

If the lion hunter is a poor one, and the lion turns the tables on the hunter and kills him and eats him...the lion still becomes human, but the man is et.

 

[Razeontherock]

What I am getting at, is that we define "time" on our own terms. Like we define everything else on our terms.
But the Bible warns us:

8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.… Isaiah 55:8-9

God gave us the Bible, and it's a good thing to read, study and live it. But I do not beleive that reading the Bible will ever give us the knowledge to understand His act of creation on such a level that we understand the physics behind it all. The very concept of space-time is so far above my head that I get dizzy thinking about it. But God does not get dizzy, it's easy for Him.

I do not believe that we can understand space-time, therefore we cannot understand TIME, on such a level that this argument can be resolved with EITHER side being "right" or "wrong". I have come to the conclusion that while God is not the author of confusion, we ourselves are, that is, we are the author of confusion when we take our opinion on such a heavy topic and assert that we, on a personal level, by simply reading the Bible, understand it all to the point that we think we have THE answer. NONE of us have the answer because we do NOT understand what time is, nor do most of us understand that the flow of time is not a constant. This is the basis of relativity, the idea that the passage of time, as one perceives it, is dependent on perspective given by speed - speed of the event, speed of the observer, speed relative between the two.

This is, again, why I assert that it is possible that BOTH sides are right. Oddly, my assertion that both sides are right offends, well, EVERYONE; and I see no way around that because of the human psychologial need to "be right". Given that psychology is the one thing I have NEVER even TRIED to study, I can't address that item.

Your idea doesn't offend me in the least.

 

[Razeontherock]

Razeontherock
My reply button is not working so in reply to your post #265 I never said there were others here before Adam and Eve. I said these are things I ponder and think about. I started this thread to see what others thought about the age of the earth.

Just seeing this now. I wasn't implying people were here before A&E. I was responding to what you had said or asked (if you click through the back arrows you can restore the context) by pointing out satan had already fallen and was in the garden before A&E got there. And he was hanging around that tree ...

 

[for_his_glory]

Just seeing this now. I wasn't implying people were here before A&E. I was responding to what you had said or asked (if you click through the back arrows you can restore the context) by pointing out satan had already fallen and was in the garden before A&E got there. And he was hanging around that tree ...

I'm a little confused what you are saying about Satan being here before Adam and Eve as I never brought that up and has no relevance to my OP.

In post #3 I replied to someone else "How do we know that God might have created others before Adam, but it repented Him that He created them and destroyed them as there was no Noah found among them, Genesis 6:6-8. Another thing I ponder is when God told Adam to replenish the earth, Genesis 1:28, as why would it say replenish instead of plenish the earth. Just odd things I pick up at times."

Post #265 your response was "Who was already here when Adam and Eve showed up?"

IMO's are the only things we can give to a topic like this and just wanted to hear what others thought about it. Nothing more, nothing less as there is no debate, but only speculations without solid proof on how old the earth is. The right answer is, no one could ever possibly know.

 

[Runner]

What I am getting at, is that we define "time" on our own terms. Like we define everything else on our terms.

I believe this is begging the question. The old earth versus young earth debate is not asking "How old would God say the earth is?" It is asking "How old is the earth in the solar years by which earthlings measure time?" God could say the earth is "12 divine floogles" old according to his timescale, but this would not alter the fact that the earth is either 4,500,000,000+ years old or around 6,000 years old according to our time scale. There is no way both sides can be right. This sounds to me suspiciously close to the typical nonsensical Young Earth argument: "Time is really just a human invention and it's all sort of a big illusion when you factor in the whole relativity thing, so we could be right despite the fact that every scientific discipline indicates the earth is 4,500,000,000+ years old."

Humans didn't "invent" time. The universe began at a specific point. The earth came into existence at a specific point. These are fixed reference points that do not hinge on how anyone measures time. Here on earth we measure time according to solar years. A Martian would presumably say that the earth is less than 4,500,000,000+ years old while a Venusian would say it is more than 4,500,000,000+ years old, but not because there is any disagreement - the earthling, the Martian and the Venusian are simply using different rulers to measure time. If the Martian said the earth was only 4,000 years old according to his timescale, we'd have a Young Earth Martian.

William Lane Craig argues in his book God, Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time that God existed in a "timeless now" before the creation but entered into time with the creation. If God chooses to use a different ruler, which I assume he does because it would be rather odd for the creator of the universe to calculate time in solar years, I believe he would say "The earth is 12 divine floogles old, and that's 4,500,000,000+ solar years for you listeners there on earth." There is no way he would say, "The earth is 12 divine floogles old, and that can be 4,500,000,000+ solar years, 6,000 solar years or whatever you folks on earth would like it to be." The fact that the earth might seem a lot younger if some us had spent a good portion of the past 4.5 billion years zipping around the universe at the speed of light seems to me irrelevant to the debate.

 

[Pizza]

Humans didn't "invent" time. The universe began at a specific point. The earth came into existence at a specific point. These are fixed reference points that do not hinge on how anyone measures time.

Not on how anyone MEASURES time, on what their reference is. Time simply does NOT pass at the same rate for all perspectives. This has been proven, it was theory but in the last 30 years has been proven.

Here on earth we measure time according to solar years.

Agreed. Over the course of our lives, and when looking into the recent past, this works well. However, keep in mind that even at the speed the ISS orbits, clocks run slightly slower than here on earth - again, this is not theory, it is reality.

Now, speed things up like during the dawn of creation and time warps pretty significantly.

William Lane Craig argues in his book God, Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time that God existed in a "timeless now" before the creation but entered into time with the creation.

I'm not so sure I agree with the conclusion reached at the end of that sentence. How can we say, for sure, that God does not yet live outside of space-time? I see no reason to make such an assumption.

The fact that the earth might seem a lot younger if some us had spent a good portion of the past 4.5 billion years zipping around the universe at the speed of light seems to me irrelevant to the debate.

No, you missed what I said. I said that the measure of time as He was working on His act of creation would be hard to figure out for us humans. It's not that "someone" was zipping around, well PAST the speed of light, it's that the materials, the elements of creation, all of creation, were expanding at beyond light speed for a time - and depending on how you observed or participated in that, time would flow very differently.

A) If you traveled WITH the material, time would pass very quickly.
B) If you stood back (as if you could, but God could) and watched it from a distance, time would pass VERY slowly in your perspective.
The difference between A and B can only be theoritical, because we have no math for speeds at or exceeding the speed of light. But based on what happens to time at a FRACTION of light speed, it seems safe to say that the "A to B" ratio above could be in the BILLIONS. THAT is the basis of what I'm saying.

THAT is how I come to the conclusion that "both sides are right" or are as right as then can be, given that we are discussing the creation of the universe. NONE of us here, and hardly any scientists on earth can even begin to understand the implications. And that is it, I find it amusing that any person thinks that they can wrap their mind around God's act of creation. Our minds are SO limited - I find it laughable.

As an aside: If pressed, I hold strongly to the 14 billion year old universe.

 

[Runner]

THAT is how I come to the conclusion that "both sides are right" or are as right as then can be, given that we are discussing the creation of the universe. NONE of us here, and hardly any scientists on earth can even begin to understand the implications. And that is it, I find it amusing that any person thinks that they can wrap their mind around God's act of creation. Our minds are SO limited - I find it laughable.

As an aside: If pressed, I hold strongly to the 14 billion year old universe.

I just believe this is fundamentally misguided. This is not the young earth versus old earth debate. This is not what the Young Earthers are arguing in any way, shape or form. They are not arguing the earth is 6,000 years old by some different measure or from some different perspective. They are arguing the earth is 6,000 years old from precisely the same perspective and by precisely the same measure as those who believe the earth is 4.5+ billion years old. There is no way both sides can be right; one is grotesquely in error. The creation of the earth occurred within the context of a universe that had been created at an earlier time - roughly 10 billion years earlier by the best estimates. It occurred at a fixed point in time, and I simply do not see any way to play games whereby either 4.5+ billion or only 6,000 years might have elapsed since that point in time.

For the record, I had always pictured God as existing in a timeless now (eternity) with our universe (and any others) as essentially being a stand-alone bubble that God observes from his timeless perspective. Time for our universe (and any others) begins to operate from the moment the bubble is created (so any moment is "X years from creation") but has no bearing on God's timeless now. This makes sense to me, but it doesn't to Craig, who is universally acknowledged as a world-class philosopher and theologian.

 

[chessman]

Humans didn't "invent" time. The universe began at a specific point. The earth came into existence at a specific point.

Did you arrive at these three fundamental beliefs (creeds) about time on your own thinking or are you using information that other thinkers on the subject have come up with?