easy believism

[stovebolts]

Isn’t the OP topic about present tense believers (easy believers versus Biblical believers)???

the OP is about easy believism.

what do you say easy believism is?
what do you say easy believism isnt?

 

[chessman]

what do you say easy believism is?

Since it’s not really a Biblical term (nor one you’ll find in a dictionary), the closest Biblical discussion that I thought of was

For we, the ones having believed, enter into the rest, just as He has said: “As I swore in My wrath, they shall never enter into My rest” [Ps 95:11]. And-yet, His works have been done since the foundation of the world.Hebrews 4:2-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 4:2-3&version=DLNT

‘easy believism’ = the philosophy or doctrine that teaches; “the ones having believed enter into the rest”.

what do you say easy believism isnt?

A word that my spellcheck corrects.

 

[gr8grace3]

what would you say easy believism ?

Easy believism is one setting up their own subjective set of rules to obtain or maintain salvation. The Lord Jesus Christ requires and demands perfection. It is pretty easy to dismiss this and set up our own 'scale' to justify ourselves by being good enough,following enough and changing enough to fool us into thinking our good outweighs our bad.

It is very difficult for us to swallow the big old humble pill of trusting in Christ alone and His work alone for our salvation. And our work doesn't amount to SQUAT pertaining to His gift of eternal life to us.

John 6:40~~New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 3:16~~New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


John 6:47~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Acts 16:30-31~~
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[chessman]

Could you explain further what you mean by this?

Perfect obedience, He is in us right now.

Sure. It was in response to His blood covering our sins (past and future sins):

And I have given them the glory which You have given to Me in order that they may be one just as We are one, I in them and You in Me; in order that they may be perfected into one— in order that the world may be knowing that You sent Me forth, and loved them just as You loved Me.​

John 17:22-23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:22-23&version=DLNT

We are perfected by His perfect obedience being in us (to include His being sent by the Father to shed His blood at the cross, is that not perfect love?). He (Christ) has already given us believers (past tense) the same glory He has with the Father. This is not necessarily an easy truth to grasp hold of. But with the Helper’s (the Holy Spirit) help it’s plain enough to hold fast.

 

[chessman]

IOW, we can believe, repent and turn to God for a while, then turn back to serving Satan as Lord, in which our initial repentance and subsequent salvation was in vain.

Do you believe Paul’s phrase “unless you believed in vain” is another way of saying unless your ‘salvation was in vain’?

 

[stovebolts]

Since it’s not really a Biblical term (nor one you’ll find in a dictionary), the closest Biblical discussion that I thought of was



‘easy believism’ = the philosophy or doctrine that teaches; “the ones having believed enter into the rest”.


A word that my spellcheck corrects.

I see.
Here in lies the issue that needs reconcilling.

One views easy believism as one who believes, and then enters into Gods rest.

The other believes that it means one simply needs to believe Jesus exists, and what he has done, so it's a liscence to sin.

If you ask me, the question really is, what is belief?

 

[stovebolts]

Do you believe Paul’s phrase “unless you believed in vain” is another way of saying unless your ‘salvation was in vain’?

Yeah.... no, were not going down that path.

 

[chessman]

I see.
Here in lies the issue that needs reconcilling.

One views easy believism as one who believes, and then enters into Gods rest.

Actually, if it is me you are referring to, what I said was “having believed ...” :

‘easy believism’ = the philosophy or doctrine that teaches; “the ones having believed enter into the rest”.

because that’s exactly what the Text of Hebrews 4 says.

The other believes that it means one simply needs to believe Jesus exists, and what he has done, so it's a liscence to sin.

Which is a belief that has precisely zero Biblical support, or at least I have seen none presented.

So, which view has better support???

If you ask me, the question really is, what is belief?

Certainly that’s a very good question.

Additionally; belief in what (exactly), is not an irrelevant question either.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Actually, if it is me you are referring to, what I said was “having believed ...” :

because that’s exactly what the Text of Hebrews 4 says.


Which is a belief that has precisely zero Biblical support, or at least I have seen none presented.

So, which view has better support???


Certainly that’s a very good question.

Additionally; belief in what (exactly), is not an irrelevant question either.

I'm pretty much with you on this issue point for point. While I do get why some want to clarify what it means to truly believe, threads such as this one don't bring clarity, but muddy the waters. Easy believism isn't even a word. It was made up and the first time I heard it was from the lips of John MacArthur. I don't even care where it originated because it's a meaningless word. I'll say it again: It has NO meaning. There's no such biblical concept. It's almost as if there's an idea being promoted that a certain level of belief (and only that level as a minimum) qualifies as a saving belief.

I'd like to see a universally accepted definition of "easy believing" that completely captures what is meant by the term. At this point, it's simply a strawman.

 

[stovebolts]

Actually, if it is me you are referring to, what I said was “having believed ...” :

because that’s exactly what the Text of Hebrews 4 says.


Which is a belief that has precisely zero Biblical support, or at least I have seen none presented.

So, which view has better support???


Certainly that’s a very good question.

Additionally; belief in what (exactly), is not an irrelevant question either.

Hebrews 4 speaks much about acting TODAY, and not hardening ones heart.

James writes that faith without works is dead. This goes hand in hand with belief.

Aside from all the talk, and we know talk is cheap (James addresses this as well), but we always act and react based on our belief.

What i see, are arguments over words and lofty idea detached from the fundamentals of human nature.

Human nature is vast and complex, and we act and react based on what we know, or dont know. Saul believed in God, yet he was a murderer. He repented, and was then called Paul. Paul understood what grace was, and he wanted to share his experience.

 

[stovebolts]

Papa Zoom,
I believe the term is analogous with cheap grace, which is to basically infer, eat, drink and be merry. Dont worry about repentance, grace has you covered.

Basically, it's an extreme view based on Calvinism. John Calvin would be rolling over in his grave if he knew how badly some have warped his systematic theology.

Btw, Calvin affirmed baptismal regeneration...

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa Zoom,
I believe the term is analogous with cheap grace, which is to basically infer, eat, drink and be merry. Dont worry about repentance, grace has you covered.

Basically, it's an extreme view based on Calvinism. John Calvin would be rolling over in his grave if he knew how badly some have warped his systematic theology.

Btw, Calvin affirmed baptismal regeneration...

both terms are meaningless without a universally accepted definition.

 

[JLB]

We are perfected by His perfect obedience being in us

Does this mean you are teaching us, that when we believe, from that point forward we are granted a “perfect obedience” status, because He walked in perfect obedience, no matter what kind of lifestyle we live?



JLB

 

[JLB]

It was in response to His blood covering our sins (past and future sins):

Please share with us the scriptures that teach us our future sins are forgiven at the moment we first believe.

 

[JLB]

Do you believe Paul’s phrase “unless you believed in vain” is another way of saying unless your ‘salvation was in vain’?

I think I explained my self very clearly and plainly.


- if a person believes, and is saved, that person must hold fast to the word of salvation, which denotes a continuation of believeing and obeying the word of salvation, which is repent (turn to God), or otherwise their initial believeing which resulted in their salvation was done so in vain, because temporary believing will nor secure a permanent salvation.


To sum up:

Temporary Believing = Temporary Salvation

Continual Believing = Continual Salvation.

IOW, we can believe, repent and turn to God for a while, then turn back to serving Satan as Lord, in which our initial repentance and subsequent salvation was in vain.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It is very difficult for us to swallow the big old humble pill of trusting in Christ alone and His work alone for our salvation. And our work doesn't amount to SQUAT pertaining to His gift of eternal life to us.

Here is who will receive eternal life.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:5-7



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

both terms are meaningless without a universally accepted definition.

Ohh. I agree. Even more so, both views cause confusion, especially amongst those who are insecure and thrive in conflict expressed through debate.

If you'll notice, if I am arguing for cats, and you for dogs, I cannot affirm any truth related to dogs for fear of being perceived of supporting a dog and fear of weakening my argument by admitting a truth about dogs.

When it comes to cheap grace / easy believism those who have a high view of Grace will infer their doctrine is in jepordary, thus, they minimize the truth and immediately go in defence. Those who have a high view of works counter and polorization occurs.

This is why I think common ground needs to be established first, and leading questions not be used to set up the other.

 

[stovebolts]

I think I explained my self very clearly and plainly.


- if a person believes, and is saved, that person must hold fast to the word of salvation, which denotes a continuation of believeing and obeying the word of salvation, which is repent (turn to God), or otherwise their initial believeing which resulted in their salvation was done so in vain, because temporary believing will nor secure a permanent salvation.


To sum up:

Temporary Believing = Temporary Salvation

Continual Believing = Continual Salvation.

IOW, we can believe, repent and turn to God for a while, then turn back to serving Satan as Lord, in which our initial repentance and subsequent salvation was in vain.


JLB

While I agree with this, it does not account for grace. Take a drunkard for example, or better yet, a homosexual.

If both are trying, but the backslide in a moment of weakness, have they lost their salvation?

Human nature is complicated.

 

[chessman]

Does this mean you are teaching us, that when we believe, from that point forward we are granted a “perfect obedience” status, because He walked in perfect obedience, no matter what kind of lifestyle we live?

No. I didn’t say anything about us being granted a status (mediocre, good, great or perfect).

I have simply pointed out Christ’s teaching us
that He has given us the glory which the Father has given to Christ. He even teaches us why (in order that) He’s done that:

I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given to Me that I should do. ​

...​

And I have given them the glory which You have given to Me in order that they may be one just as We are one, I in them and You in Me; in order that they may be perfected into one— in order that the world may be knowing that You sent Me forth, and loved them just as You loved Me.​

John 17:4,22-23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:4,22-23&version=DLNT

 

[chessman]

Please share with us the scriptures that teach us our future sins are forgiven at the moment we first believe.

I didn’t say our future sins are forgiven at the moment we first believe.

What I said was His blood covers our sins (past and future sins).