Elohiym in Gen 1:1 is not plural of persons

[boodle]

first link
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42258

second one
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42907

i edite this and added the last link.

I spent a couple of hours reading the thread “Can Jesus be considered God†and I was surprised by what I read.
Besides the antagonistic display by my fellow Trinitarians, I saw some very valid points made by this Yahosea (sp). Is he/she still on the forum? I looked up the website for Jeff Bener and found it fascinating. I am not sure if Bener is a Trinitarian or not but his explanation of Hebrew culture is wonderful.
I can certainly see where Benner is coming from when he says we should look at things by how they work and not at how they look. This would seem to be a fair test for doctrine. As Yahosea said, what does it produce by it’s fruits? I wish to have teaching that changes me into what God wants me to be.
I know that I feel safe in my belief in the Trinity, but also admit that safety is mostly derived from being with the majority of believers. I have never been able to reconcile clearly the concept in my head. I am not an expert in these matters and would welcome someone telling me what fruits we can count on from the Trinity.
Thank you ---

 

[seekandlisten]

first link
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42258

second one
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42907

i edite this and added the last link.

I spent a couple of hours reading the thread “Can Jesus be considered God†and I was surprised by what I read.
Besides the antagonistic display by my fellow Trinitarians, I saw some very valid points made by this Yahosea (sp). Is he/she still on the forum? I looked up the website for Jeff Bener and found it fascinating. I am not sure if Bener is a Trinitarian or not but his explanation of Hebrew culture is wonderful.
I can certainly see where Benner is coming from when he says we should look at things by how they work and not at how they look. This would seem to be a fair test for doctrine. As Yahosea said, what does it produce by it’s fruits? I wish to have teaching that changes me into what God wants me to be.
I know that I feel safe in my belief in the Trinity, but also admit that safety is mostly derived from being with the majority of believers. I have never been able to reconcile clearly the concept in my head. I am not an expert in these matters and would welcome someone telling me what fruits we can count on from the Trinity.
Thank you ---

I don't think your question can be answered without a lot of discord as you can see from previous threads that have been locked. Yahosea has obviously put a lot of study into the matter and presents a lot of good points. I hope he/she is still around but can understand if they left. I personally don't believe in the trinity doctrine and if you have any specific questions as to why people as myself do not believe said doctrine or the fruits we see I would be more than happy to try and explain my position but in pm as we can see where these conversations usually go in public forums. I don't claim to have all the answers as I'm only human but I'll do my best to answer any questions you have God willing.

 

[wavy]

I saw some very valid points made by this Yahosea (sp).

I saw none. Only blatant plagiarism, sciolism, and outright error. Perhaps we could hear of a few of these 'valid points'.

Finis,
Eric

 

[Free]

Yahosea has obviously put a lot of study into the matter and presents a lot of good points.

The funny thing is, no ever says that the Trinitarians have put a lot of study into the matter or presented a lot of good points.

 

[seekandlisten]

Yahosea has obviously put a lot of study into the matter and presents a lot of good points.

The funny thing is, no ever says that the Trinitarians have put a lot of study into the matter or presented a lot of good points.

Well usually I just get told that I believe in a different God and Jesus or any variation there of that Christians describe people who don't believe what they believe. Sorry if this sounds harsh but such is usually the case. I have been presented with good points on the trinitarion side as well but they are usually few and far between because prejudice takes over. Due note that I'm just as guilty as the next of getting caught up in this argument over the trinity.

 

[Free]

Well usually I just get told that I believe in a different God and Jesus or any variation there of that Christians describe people who don't believe what they believe. Sorry if this sounds harsh but such is usually the case.

But is that not true? If Jesus is the God-man than he is a very different Jesus from those who believe he was only a man. If God is triune, is that not a different God from one that is not triune? God is who he revealed himself to be and we need to be sure to do due diligence in finding out exactly who he has revealed himself to be.

 

[follower of Christ]

This would seem to be a fair test for doctrine. As Yahosea said, what does it produce by it’s fruits? I wish to have teaching that changes me into what God wants me to be.
I know that I feel safe in my belief in the Trinity, but also admit that safety is mostly derived from being with the majority of believers. I have never been able to reconcile clearly the concept in my head. I am not an expert in these matters and would welcome someone telling me what fruits we can count on from the Trinity.
Thank you ---

The problem with this 'fruits' nonsense is that it doesnt mean anything.
Does scripture tell us that Gods truth is defined by who buys it or what effect it has ?

Gods truth is Gods truth. It doesnt matter if NO human being on earth is affected by it because of their rejection of it. Man doesnt want Gods truth so that some dont see any 'fruits' in the trinity doctrine is irrelevant.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yahosea has obviously put a lot of study into the matter and presents a lot of good points.

The funny thing is, no ever says that the Trinitarians have put a lot of study into the matter or presented a lot of good points.

No one that doesnt already believe in the trinity.

I see this same thing in the MDR debate.
The back-patting going on is nauseating when you can look at the illogical, inconsistent and perpetually regurgitated arguments being presented.

Ive always believed in the Trinity and my studies have only confirmed that it is simply a fact that scripture teaches that God is triune in nature...ie three PERSONS within the Godhead.

 

[follower of Christ]

Well usually I just get told that I believe in a different God and Jesus or any variation there of that Christians describe people who don't believe what they believe. Sorry if this sounds harsh but such is usually the case. I have been presented with good points on the trinitarion side as well but they are usually few and far between because prejudice takes over. Due note that I'm just as guilty as the next of getting caught up in this argument over the trinity.

I have to agree with Free on this one.
If you dont believe in God AS scripture explains His, how can it BE the scriptural God you are believing in ?

If I say I like Barrack Obama because shes a great lady....how on earth can it be the president of the United States that Im talking about if Ive completely misrepresented/misunderstood their attributes?

 

[seekandlisten]

Do we not just get caught up in the letter of the law?? If you can't become a servant to a Muslim, Athiest, Buddhist, Wiccan, etc. and show God's unconditional love is this the fruit of a true believer? If you must raise yourself up above them in the sense that they are condemned to hell, or a sinner, or they don't deserve salvation just because they believe differently then you is this the fruit of a true believer?

 

[follower of Christ]

Do we not just get caught up in the letter of the law??

So are you saying that we just dont need a bible at all ?
What was the POINT of Paul and Jesus TEACHING us, as we have recorded in LETTER in our bibles, if we dont need it ?
WHY did Paul even bother to WRITE letters for INSTRUCTION if we dont need those letters friend ?

If you can't become a servant to a Muslim, Athiest, Buddhist, Wiccan, etc. and show God's unconditional love is this the fruit of a true believer?

We are not to compromise Gods truth to try to win souls.
Not sure where that error came from at all.
If a person cannot come to God on HIS terms accepting HIS truth in HIS word, then they simply arent going to come.

If you must raise yourself up above them in the sense that they are condemned to hell, or a sinner, or they don't deserve salvation just because they believe differently then you is this the fruit of a true believer?

Sorry but we dont elevate ourselves just because we refuse to cater to false doctrines.
We cant be guilted into compromise, Im afraid.
.

 

[seekandlisten]

Do we not just get caught up in the letter of the law??

So are you saying that we just dont need a bible at all ?
What was the POINT of Paul and Jesus TEACHING us, as we have recorded in LETTER in our bibles, if we dont need it ?
WHY did Paul even bother to WRITE letters for INSTRUCTION if we dont need those letters friend ?
.

Seriously dude?? Why must we go to the opposite extreme? Did the Pharisees get caught up in the letter of the law? Does that make the Torah/OT irrelevant?

 

[follower of Christ]

Seriously dude?? Why must we go to the opposite extreme? Did the Pharisees get caught up in the letter of the law? Does that make the Torah/OT irrelevant?

Huh..
Where the pharisees went WRONG was in MISinterpreting and MISusing Gods law, and ADDING their own UNscriptural tradition.
Had the Jews STUCK with GODS precepts, with GODS truth, theyd have been just fine

 

[boodle]

Follower,
Please excuse my bluntness, but I have seen little of the love of God in any of your posts. If you truly believed in your doctrine why would you not reach out in love to others rather then attack their position.
In my reading of scripture I never saw Christ tear down another stand without offering them something better.
At least yaoshea was offering to show what positive results could come from his stand. It does not seem you care one way or another whether what you are teaching has a positive effect on your readers. I remember my pastor speaking of God being a God of covenants. He explained that a covenant is a contract between two parties. If one does something then the other does something. God is always clear in His covenants. He shows clearly the results of our actions. He shows “fruitsâ€.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
Please excuse my bluntness, but I have seen little of the love of God in any of your posts.

Be blunt as you wish, thats precisely what you see in my posts.
Are we discussing DOCTRINE here, friend or love ?

If you truly believed in your doctrine why would you not reach out in love to others rather then attack their position.

Do you really want to go there ?
Shall we look at Pauls word and see that yes, we ARE to 'sharply rebuke' those in error when necessary to get them back onto the path of truth ?
let me know if youd like to see the scripture and I'll post it

With UNbelievers we can offer love alone.
But with FALSE teachers it becomes necessary to be harsh/blunt at times when they refuse to stop pushing godless error on others.

In my reading of scripture I never saw Christ tear down another stand without offering them something better.

And we offer something better....GODS TRUTH and salvation.

At least yaoshea was offering to show what positive results could come from his stand.

Again, getting people to smile and accept 'jesus' by giving them a false doctrine ISNT the proper measure of truth.
Im not interested in these results. Im interested in giving GODS truth to the reader.
All I see from some here is an overwhelming desire to compromise that truth.

It does not seem you care one way or another whether what you are teaching has a positive effect on your readers.

Gods truth ALWAYS has a positive effect on those who are His.
Those who arent and wont be simply is something that is beyond my control.

He shows clearly the results of our actions. He shows “fruitsâ€.

Let me say again that we will not be guilted into compromising His truth.
If a person willingly rejects God because they cant handle the trinity concept, that is on them, not us.


.

 

[boodle]

Follower,
Please excuse my bluntness, but I have seen little of the love of God in any of your posts.

Be blunt as you wish, thats precisely what you see in my posts.
Are we discussing DOCTRINE here, friend or love ?

If you truly believed in your doctrine why would you not reach out in love to others rather then attack their position.

Do you really want to go there ?
Shall we look at Pauls word and see that yes, we ARE to 'sharply rebuke' those in error when necessary to get them back onto the path of truth ?
let me know if youd like to see the scripture and I'll post it

With UNbelievers we can offer love alone.
But with FALSE teachers it becomes necessary to be harsh/blunt at times when they refuse to stop pushing godless error on others.
[quote:2fteielq]In my reading of scripture I never saw Christ tear down another stand without offering them something better.

And we offer something better....GODS TRUTH and salvation.

At least yaoshea was offering to show what positive results could come from his stand.

Again, getting people to smile and accept 'jesus' by giving them a false doctrine ISNT the proper measure of truth.
Im not interested in these results. Im interested in giving GODS truth to the reader.
All I see from some here is an overwhelming desire to compromise that truth.

It does not seem you care one way or another whether what you are teaching has a positive effect on your readers.

Gods truth ALWAYS has a positive effect on those who are His.
Those who arent and wont be simply is something that is beyond my control.

He shows clearly the results of our actions. He shows “fruitsâ€.

Let me say again that we will not be guilted into compromising His truth.
If a person willingly rejects God because they cant handle the trinity concept, that is on them, not us.


.[/quote:2fteielq]

You say that your doctrine produces fruit, but not being able to prove or even list them seems like a cop-out.
If we are teaching a false doctrine then we are responsible for it. It is on us.
My reading of Paul shows a great deal of love before ever rebuking. You offer them nothing better and I mean better by results, but jump right to attacking and rebuking. That does not seem Christ like to me.

 

[boodle]

Well usually I just get told that I believe in a different God and Jesus or any variation there of that Christians describe people who don't believe what they believe. Sorry if this sounds harsh but such is usually the case.

But is that not true? If Jesus is the God-man than he is a very different Jesus from those who believe he was only a man. If God is triune, is that not a different God from one that is not triune? God is who he revealed himself to be and we need to be sure to do due diligence in finding out exactly who he has revealed himself to be.

How do we do due diligence? I remember something yahoshea said about the different way each of us interpret scripture. How do you know which interpretation is right? I can see yahosea's point. It could be judged by the results of the doctrine. God would not give a doctrine that would hinder his children from becoming what He wants for them.

 

[follower of Christ]

You say that your doctrine produces fruit, but not being able to prove or even list them seems like a cop-out.

What is the topic of this thread?
Oddly enough I saw nothing in the title or the OP that said a word about our having to get names and numbers of people we've led to Jesus....can you quote it for me ?

Secondly, and AGAIN, FRUIT is NOT simply defined by numbers.
If ONE man comes to the truth then that ONE man is enough...even if ten thousand walk away because they dont really WANT God and HIS truth, but instead want what THEY WANT to believe.

If we are teaching a false doctrine then we are responsible for it. It is on us.

If it were only that simple.
See where you are ?
Youre on a forum where OTHER people read and listen...and thus you DO have an effect on those people one way or another.
Its not your beliefs that are a threat....its when you preach them to others who dont yet know enough of Gods word to defend His truth.

My reading of Paul shows a great deal of love before ever rebuking.

So what ?
When he wasnt dealing with people REJECTING Gods truth Paul showed great love.
When they started getting way out of line thats when he chastised and even named them by name publicly.

You offer them nothing better and I mean better by results,

Dude, you dont know me from Adam.
Come back in 10 years and we'll talk.

Additionally, this thread ISNT about ME...so get off MY person and back to the topic

but jump right to attacking and rebuking. That does not seem Christ like to me.

Really ?
What bible are you reading then ?
Jesus was all over the Jews who refused Gods TRUTH. As was John the baptist.
Paul also rebuked and called false teachers to the carpet.
Again, what bible are you reading ?

 

[glorydaz]

At least yaoshea was offering to show what positive results could come from his stand. It does not seem you care one way or another whether what you are teaching has a positive effect on your readers. I remember my pastor speaking of God being a God of covenants. He explained that a covenant is a contract between two parties. If one does something then the other does something. God is always clear in His covenants. He shows clearly the results of our actions. He shows “fruitsâ€.

Any positive results that come from man are not "fruits".
If Jesus was merely a man, then His Spirit which indwells the believer are merely the works of man, not the fruits of the Spirit. To deny Jesus is God is error, therefore there can be no "fruits" when coming from that position.

 

[follower of Christ]

How do we do due diligence? I remember something yahoshea said about the different way each of us interpret scripture.

That 'interpretation' thing is simply a dodge when someone KNOWs that the clearly worded text DOESNT agree with their views. I see this excuse on a daily basis.
Regardless of what some claim the bible is VERY easy to understand in what it DOES say. It DOES show that Jesus Christ IS the Word and the Word IS God....no getting around that fact, but anti-trinitarians make up any and every excuse to reject what it DOES say...including this 'interpretation' nonsense.

How do you know which interpretation is right?

Read a bible without inserting ones views INTO the the scriptures. Harmonize the WHOLE of Gods word, dont just pick one verse out and reject anything that contradicts your understanding of it.
Basically stop acting like a teacher until one has spent thousands of hours living in Gods word.

It could be judged by the results of the doctrine.

Wrong.
And its wrong because MAN IS EVIL.
If Gods truth is preached to a million souls and none of them come to Christ that does NOT give us right to start negotiating or compromising. All that does is create FALSE converts who play 'christian' simply because we tell them what they want to hear.
Sorry, but Im not willing to make that compromise. No one will be in hell on my account. I refuse to have blood on my hands on that terrible day because someone cant come to the TRUE God of the scriptures.

God would not give a doctrine that would hinder his children from becoming what He wants for them.

And He hasnt.