End of the Church Age? From corporate to individualism

[follower of Christ]

Its impossible for a Christian to be outside the church. They ARE the church.

Absolutely.
WE are His 'calling out' regardless of where we are.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

It only takes two.
Disagreement with that fact simply is out of line with the very words of Jesus Christ. . .

-It only takes TWO.
-It doesnt have to be anywhere but our own homes.
-We shouldnt be divided over trivial disagreements, such as our understanding, or lack thereof, of things like predestination...or foods, or days, or clothes, or hair length, or any other trifling issue.
.

foC,

The question I have is this: Is ONE individual believer the Church?

I say no because one member of the body, eg a hand and the head of the Church in no way adequately reflects nor constitutes the body of Christ. The Church is clearly 'corporate'.

blessings

Yes because they are born again and part of His body.
So your claim seems to be that if I crash land on a desert island and die there alone that I am not part of the church and have lost salvation ?
Please say Im misinterpreting your post, friend.

And what YOU call 'corporate' the Head of the church, Jesus Christ, shows is 'two or three'.



.

 

[follower of Christ]

RC Sproul calls them "sub-Calvinists." I like that. I dont see that Hyper-Calvinists are even Calvinists.

I definitely agree with that assessment.
Calvinists, even five pointers, I can cope with. Hyper Calvinists have just gone off the deep end.

 

[Vic C.]

RC Sproul calls them "sub-Calvinists." I like that. I dont see that Hyper-Calvinists are even Calvinists.

I definitely agree with that assessment.
Calvinists, even five pointers, I can cope with. Hyper Calvinists have just gone off the deep end.

Sub Calvinist? LOL, ok then... Camping is a sub Calvinist. :yes

 

[stranger]

The question I have is this: Is ONE individual believer the Church?

I say no because one member of the body, eg a hand and the head of the Church in no way adequately reflects nor constitutes the body of Christ. The Church is clearly 'corporate'.

foC wrote:

Yes because they are born again and part of His body.
So your claim seems to be that if I crash land on a desert island and die there alone that I am not part of the church and have lost salvation ?
Please say Im misinterpreting your post, friend.

And what YOU call 'corporate' the Head of the church, Jesus Christ, shows is 'two or three'.

Hello foC,

In the case of you dying on the desert island -- AFTER that you would presumably be part of the body of Christ in heaven afterall there is the Church in heaven AND on earth ( of which you were not a part due to your isolating circumstances).

What I call Church is what God founded at the hands of the apostles and prophets, and only the apostles and prophets, not what two or three believers gathered together decide however well meaning their intentions might be based on Jesus' promise to be with them.

blessings

 

[follower of Christ]

Hello foC,

Hello

In the case of you dying on the desert island -- AFTER that you would presumably be part of the body of Christ in heaven afterall there is the Church in heaven AND on earth ( of which you were not a part due to your isolating circumstances).

And so any view that says that the INDIVIDUAL is not the 'church' is entirely erroneous.
AS individuals we make up the BODY that IS the church whether we are standing as a group of ten thousand.....or one poor soul lost in the wilderness.

What I call Church is what God founded at the hands of the apostles and prophets, and only the aspotles and prophets,

And what scripture calls 'church' is simply Christs 'calling out'....those He has 'called out' of the world.
I suggest that you might want to get away from your views long enough to study and understand what the greek word 'ekklesia' means and is derived from.
It does not just take on the sole meaning of a 'meeting'. It includes ALL of His people regardless of where the are or what their circumstances are.

G1577
á¼ÂκκληÃία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.




G1577
á¼ÂκκληÃία
ekklēsia
Thayer Definition:
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
1d2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake
1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

So while you may believe your view encompasses the thoughts of the apostles and prophets, it doesnt.
Otherwise when Moses was separated from His people for so long a time his standing with God would have been changed.

The 'church' is US...individually....collectively...WE make up the body of Christ...the 'assembly', regardless of where we are and even if we only fellowship with one other believer in our lifetimes.
Sorry but JESUS Himself proves that fact with His words whether some believe it or accept it.

not what two or three believers gathered together decide however well meaning their intentions might be based on Jesus' promise to be with them.

I see. So its the old "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" argument....YOUR ideas are absolute even tho JESUS, the HEAD of the church, shows otherwise....

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

Sorry to disagree and to believe I can take Christ the Lord at HIS word in the matter.

 

[follower of Christ]

[quote="follower of Christ":1gjerco5]

RC Sproul calls them "sub-Calvinists." I like that. I dont see that Hyper-Calvinists are even Calvinists.

I definitely agree with that assessment.
Calvinists, even five pointers, I can cope with. Hyper Calvinists have just gone off the deep end.

Sub Calvinist? LOL, ok then... Camping is a sub Calvinist. :yes[/quote:1gjerco5]Sorry, I was agreeing with this part...

"I dont see that Hyper-Calvinists are even Calvinists.

Hyper Calvinists (which Ive stopped calling that because its an insult to true Calvinists) are so far off the map that they should be classified as a cult, not a branch of Christianity.
Ive been using the term Hyper-predestinationists lately instead to keep from getting folks confused with normal Calvinists who are nowhere near as bad as these hyper types.

 

[SeraphimH]

End of the "Church age"?!? More like end of the "Love Age"...

Personal relationships with God are paradoxical, because they only reside in the midst of the Church. Without communion with one another, we have no communion with God. It is also a matter of personhood and our existence as Christians. Christ did not die to make bad men good but to make dead men live. Our living in communion and participation with others is not a metaphorical act of moral behavior but a description of the manner in which we truly exist. Christ prayed for the communion of persons with Himself and one another. To this effect, there are no purely personal relationships with God, nor are there personal relationships with God outside of the Church. Christ Himself prays for our unity in Himself and with one another:

John 17:21-23
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Notice Christ does not say "that you may be one", but THEY may be one. Unity with God REQUIRES unity in belief and practice, and communion with one another.

 

[stranger]

In the Body there ARE NO INDIVIDUALS per se.

Now a question for you:

Can a true follower of Christ be a Member of the Body and dwell within a 'house of demons'?

Blessings,

MEC

MEC,

Interesting answer to the prior question. To answer your question -- if he remains a 'member' of the true body of Christ then I would say not ever.

blessings

 

[stranger]

follower of Christ

Its impossible for a Christian to be outside the church. They ARE the church.

Absolutely.
WE are His 'calling out' regardless of where we are.
[quote:cn12pddm]Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

It only takes two.
Disagreement with that fact simply is out of line with the very words of Jesus Christ.[/quote:cn12pddm]

Hi foC,

Here is a passage that suggests that it is possible for a Christian to be outside the Church.

1 Corinthians 5:4-6

In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

The above passage shows that it is possible for a believer to be expelled (excommunicated?) from the body of Christ for a time that in the end he may be saved. The 'may be saved' doesn't mean he was saved but rather that it was possible that he could be saved. Being delivered over to Satan suggests to me that he was put outside the body of Christ.

This is related - do you think that it is possible for a true believer to lose his salvation?

blessings still

 

[Elijah674]

In the Body there ARE NO INDIVIDUALS per se.

Now a question for you:

Can a true follower of Christ be a Member of the Body and dwell within a 'house of demons'?

Blessings,

MEC

MEC,

Interesting answer to the prior question. To answer your question -- if he remains a 'member' of the true body of Christ then I would say not ever.

blessings

Hi, Elijah here: Never? 'i' see one needing Christ's Word as His example was. What was done during the seven times from 27AD to 34AD? His anointing from the Father until Saul (Paul) was called to start the outside gentile 'church' work? Matt. 10:5-6 was to the Lost Sheep of the house of Christs. And on through verse 38 finds Matt. 25's parable explained. (as 'i' see it) Even verse 38 tell's us 'our ending'. (Christ was there in that day speaking of the ORGANIZED church Ending)

I agree somewhat with never, ;) But my NEVER is an several year period! Christ came to His very OWN to try once again to get them straightened out as a WHOLE, before they divorced Him (surely we know that the new church was just an extension of the old?) Rev. 12:17

This is what SHAKING MEANS! FALLING AWAY! It took a little time, and was required to have evangelism take a backseat temp. (see Matt. 23:15)

SO: Does anyone want to do the rest of the SEPERATING REQUIRED WORK??? And on this site, will they permit (mod's & such) a MIDNIGHT CRY + the LOUD CRY of Matt. 25??? 'Me think'em not??

And LOVE?? Who left whom in Christ's Day, and who stayed PUT?? Who was the Church? (Rev. 2:5) And who LOVED whom?? Killing for the church is Christian??? Anyway the shortest short/cut for this Truth is BELIEVING Christ's Word of Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 even tieing in the TWICE Documentation example of Gen. 41:32 ('DOUBLED' 'ESTABLISHED by GOD')

 

[Cornelius]

-It only takes TWO.
-It doesnt have to be anywhere but our own homes.
-We shouldnt be divided over trivial disagreements, such as our understanding, or lack thereof, of things like predestination...or foods, or days, or clothes, or hair length, or any other trifling issue.
.

Amen, this is correct. No bell towers needed, no pulpits, no secretaries, no committees, no salaries paid, just the believers coming together.

This past Thursday, I stopped the formal "teaching" at our fellowship and instead, we broke bread together and shared some wine in remembrance of what Jesus did. We will do this every time we get together now. Then we just fellowshipped and everybody shared.Then time went by so fast and we spent way more time than usual. We prayed for the sick (next day a good report of healing was received) and some gave their dreams and some asked for prayer regarding an unbelieving husband. I think we learned more through the testimonies than through teaching. Our group has a strong Bible study pattern through the week ,most are really grounded solidly in the Word, so now on Thursdays, we will only meet for fellowship and prayer.

People were really encouraged as some of our very new believers shared how they prayed over some mechanical stuff and God fixed it for them. We have one household that this seems to happen in all the time, from cellphones, heaters to cars. We had computers fixed by prayer too, and of course many normal healings as well.



C

 

[Elijah674]

-It only takes TWO.
-It doesnt have to be anywhere but our own homes.
-We shouldnt be divided over trivial disagreements, such as our understanding, or lack thereof, of things like predestination...or foods, or days, or clothes, or hair length, or any other trifling issue.
.

Amen, this is correct. No bell towers needed, no pulpits, no secretaries, no committees, no salaries paid, just the believers coming together.

This past Thursday, I stopped the formal "teaching" at our fellowship and instead, we broke bread together and shared some wine in remembrance of what Jesus did. We will do this every time we get together now. Then we just fellowshipped and everybody shared.Then time went by so fast and we spent way more time than usual. We prayed for the sick (next day a good report of healing was received) and some gave their dreams and some asked for prayer regarding an unbelieving husband. I think we learned more through the testimonies than through teaching. Our group has a strong Bible study pattern through the week ,most are really grounded solidly in the Word, so now on Thursdays, we will only meet for fellowship and prayer.

People were really encouraged as some of our very new believers shared how they prayed over some mechanical stuff and God fixed it for them. We have one household that this seems to happen in all the time, from cellphones, heaters to cars. We had computers fixed by prayer too, and of course many normal healings as well.
C

Divided?? Regardless of whom Inspiration is speaking to here, we SEE the Mother & Her Harlot daughters. It surely finds them with UNITY in satans cause. (doctrine/wise) So is this to be our church age?

Rev.17
[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

And Christ's personal Words of Matt. 6:24
'NO MAN can serve TWO Masters: for either HE WILL HATE THE ONE, AND LOVE THE OTHER; or else [he will hold to one, and DESPISE the other,..'

--Elijah

 

[follower of Christ]

follower of Christ

Its impossible for a Christian to be outside the church. They ARE the church.

Absolutely.
WE are His 'calling out' regardless of where we are.
[quote:1kwukvh2]Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

It only takes two.
Disagreement with that fact simply is out of line with the very words of Jesus Christ.

Hi foC,

Here is a passage that suggests that it is possible for a Christian to be outside the Church.

1 Corinthians 5:4-6

In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

The above passage shows that it is possible for a believer to be expelled (excommunicated?) from the body of Christ for a time that in the end he may be saved. The 'may be saved' doesn't mean he was saved but rather that it was possible that he could be saved. Being delivered over to Satan suggests to me that he was put outside the body of Christ.

This is related - do you think that it is possible for a true believer to lose his salvation?

blessings still[/quote:1kwukvh2]Hello
Firstly, this thread isnt about OSAS and I wont make it one.

Secondly, no christian is going to be lost if they arent fellowshipping with a preapproved number of persons each week.
Thats a VERY shallow and legalistic way of looking at the Faith.

Thirdly, your passage from Corinthians above is about those IN fellowship in the church living in OPEN, UNrepented sin. Paul corrected the CHURCH body there for not having dealt with this matter already so that he has to find out about it and correct it himself. It has nothing to do with church attendance.

And finally, and again, I dont want to be the cause of this turning into a OSAS debate, so I am refraining from any response that will cause it to go in that direction other than to say that Im NOT OSAS

 

[follower of Christ]

-It only takes TWO.
-It doesnt have to be anywhere but our own homes.
-We shouldnt be divided over trivial disagreements, such as our understanding, or lack thereof, of things like predestination...or foods, or days, or clothes, or hair length, or any other trifling issue.
.

Amen, this is correct. No bell towers needed, no pulpits, no secretaries, no committees, no salaries paid, just the believers coming together.

This past Thursday, I stopped the formal "teaching" at our fellowship and instead, we broke bread together and shared some wine in remembrance of what Jesus did. We will do this every time we get together now. Then we just fellowshipped and everybody shared.Then time went by so fast and we spent way more time than usual. We prayed for the sick (next day a good report of healing was received) and some gave their dreams and some asked for prayer regarding an unbelieving husband. I think we learned more through the testimonies than through teaching. Our group has a strong Bible study pattern through the week ,most are really grounded solidly in the Word, so now on Thursdays, we will only meet for fellowship and prayer.

People were really encouraged as some of our very new believers shared how they prayed over some mechanical stuff and God fixed it for them. We have one household that this seems to happen in all the time, from cellphones, heaters to cars. We had computers fixed by prayer too, and of course many normal healings as well.
C

I do believe in order in the assembly, but one almost gets the impression that when we are overly concerned with absolute structure in the assembly that the Spirit is almost removed from it.
The best times Ive ever had in fellowship has been in a home with just a handful of us. Its also the place that Ive learned the most about God and His word.
Eventually we'll all be facing persecution and homes and other private places will be all we have left. Im almost finding myself looking forward to it.

 

[stranger]

Cornelius wrote:

... No bell towers needed, no pulpits, no secretaries, no committees, no salaries paid, just the believers coming together. ...

To clear up any misunderstanding thus far, when I use the word 'Church' the default assumption is that I am speaking about the Church up to around 100AD, ie NT Church - no point of reference to Church in OT.

What you describe sounds like a house church. Let me ask you a question - do you have 'elders and deacons' as they did in the NT Church?

blessings

 

[follower of Christ]

Elijah674,
It might just be me....maybe Im tired and dont know it...but Im really having a VERY hard time following your posts or getting your points as they relate to the discussion at hand.
Maybe a little preamble at the beginnning of each post so we can get the gist of your post ?

Divided?? Regardless of whom Inspiration is speaking to here, we SEE the Mother & Her Harlot daughters. It surely finds them with UNITY in satans cause. (doctrine/wise) So is this to be our church age?

Rev.17
[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

And Christ's personal Words of Matt. 6:24
'NO MAN can serve TWO Masters: for either HE WILL HATE THE ONE, AND LOVE THE OTHER; or else [he will hold to one, and DESPISE the other,..'

--Elijah

 

[follower of Christ]

To clear up any misunderstanding thus far, when I use the word 'Church' the default assumption is that I am speaking about the Church up to around 100AD, ie NT Church - no point of reference to Church in OT.

So we can assume that you do not mean 'church' as including any particular buildings, but ONLY the people of God who comprise the body of Christ ?
Ive wondered how you intend the word so clarification might help.

What you describe sounds like a house church. Let me ask you a question - do you have 'elders and deacons' as they did in the NT Church?

blessings

For our groups we dont use those titles as they arent necessary.
At one home we go to the man whose home it is has been in the Faith longer than the rest of us and has more knowledge of scripture than the rest of us combined, so we naturally look to him AS the 'leader' of the pack, tho we dont use any of the titles mentioned in scripture.

Something you may want to understand about those titles is that in a lot of cases they dont mean what many folks THINK they mean but actually mean things like 'servant'...not 'commander in chief'

Deacon
G1247
διακονέÉ
diakoneÃ…Â
dee-ak-on-eh'-o
From G1249; to be an attendant, that is, wait upon (menially or as a host, friend or [figuratively] teacher); technically to act as a Christian deacon: - (ad-) minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

An 'elder' would simply be a man such as the one I was speaking about above. He is the eldest and more spiritually mature of the group and we give him that honor. That doesnt mean he rules with an iron fist, or that he is allowed to.

A 'bishop' is one who actually 'oversees'.

G1985
á¼ÂÀίÃκοÀοÂ
episkopos
Thayer Definition:
1) an overseer
1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

If any of these are an 'authority' in the church it would be these.

All of these are nice, but the titles arent required for men to have these positions.
If an older Christian has to chastise a younger one for something, those titles dont mean squat. Either the younger person subjects himself WILLINGLY to correction or he doesnt. What the older brothers "office" is isnt going to make any difference unless the one being corrected ACCEPTS that correction.

If the man I spoke of above was to correct me and shows me that his correction IS in line with Gods word, then I would subject myself to that correction no matter if I called him Bob (his name) or 'Bishop' (a position).

 

[stranger]

Hi foC,

Here is a passage that suggests that it is possible for a Christian to be outside the Church.

1 Corinthians 5:4-6

In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

The above passage shows that it is possible for a believer to be expelled (excommunicated?) from the body of Christ for a time that in the end he may be saved. The 'may be saved' doesn't mean he was saved but rather that it was possible that he could be saved. Being delivered over to Satan suggests to me that he was put outside the body of Christ.

This is related - do you think that it is possible for a true believer to lose his salvation?

Firstly, this thread isnt about OSAS and I wont make it one.

Not my intention either -- the question came to mind when I read the corinthians passage.

Secondly, no christian is going to be lost if they arent fellowshipping with a preapproved number of persons each week. Thats a VERY shallow and legalistic way of looking at the Faith.

I'm asking about the man Paul delivered over to Satan. MEC asked was it possible for a true believer united to the body of Christ to dwell in the house of demons. I answered - not ever if he remains in the body of Christ. Off course if the believer is expelled from the body of Christ, as the man in Corinth was, then my answer would be 'yes'.

Preapproved numbers did not enter my mind when I asked you about this man, and as for saying 'that's a VERY shallow and legalistic way of looking at it', . . . you have said so!

Thirdly, your passage from Corinthians above is about those IN fellowship in the church living in OPEN, UNrepented sin. Paul corrected the CHURCH body there for not having dealt with this matter already so that he has to find out about it and correct it himself. It has nothing to do with church attendance.

No further comment.

And finally, and again, I dont want to be the cause of this turning into a OSAS debate, so I am refraining from any response that will cause it to go in that direction other than to say that Im NOT OSAS

Just wondering - I'm not either.

take care

 

[stranger]

follower of Christ

So we can assume that you do not mean 'church' as including any particular buildings, but ONLY the people of God who comprise the body of Christ ?
Ive wondered how you intend the word so clarification might help.

Yes, only believers are the body of Christ.

For our groups we dont use those titles as they arent necessary.
At one home we go to the man whose home it is has been in the Faith longer than the rest of us and has more knowledge of scripture than the rest of us combined, so we naturally look to him AS the 'leader' of the pack, tho we dont use any of the titles mentioned in scripture.

Something you may want to understand about those titles is that in a lot of cases they dont mean what many folks THINK they mean but actually mean things like 'servant'...not 'commander in chief'
[quote:2vgfeca0]
Deacon
G1247
διακονέÉ
diakoneÃ…Â
dee-ak-on-eh'-o
From G1249; to be an attendant, that is, wait upon (menially or as a host, friend or [figuratively] teacher); technically to act as a Christian deacon: - (ad-) minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

An 'elder' would simply be a man such as the one I was speaking about above. He is the eldest and more spiritually mature of the group and we give him that honor. That doesnt mean he rules with an iron fist, or that he is allowed to.

A 'bishop' is one who actually 'oversees'.

G1985
á¼ÂÀίÃκοÀοÂ
episkopos
Thayer Definition:
1) an overseer
1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

If any of these are an 'authority' in the church it would be these.

All of these are nice, but the titles arent required for men to have these positions.
If an older Christian has to chastise a younger one for something, those titles dont mean squat. Either the younger person subjects himself WILLINGLY to correction or he doesnt. What the older brothers "office" is isnt going to make any difference unless the one being corrected ACCEPTS that correction.

If the man I spoke of above was to correct me and shows me that his correction IS in line with Gods word, then I would subject myself to that correction no matter if I called him Bob (his name) or 'Bishop' (a position).[/quote:2vgfeca0]

Fair enough. I'm on Sabbatical from the divided 'Protestant denominations'.

blessings

 

[Cornelius]

Cornelius wrote:

... No bell towers needed, no pulpits, no secretaries, no committees, no salaries paid, just the believers coming together. ...

To clear up any misunderstanding thus far, when I use the word 'Church' the default assumption is that I am speaking about the Church up to around 100AD, ie NT Church - no point of reference to Church in OT.

What you describe sounds like a house church. Let me ask you a question - do you have 'elders and deacons' as they did in the NT Church?

blessings

In reality we relate to elders (five fold ministry ), although they are not with us in our fellowship. We do not see ourselves as a church, but as a fellowship that is part of the church. Our elders are in contact with us, but do not come to our fellowship. We have men in the group that are more mature in the faith and people look up to them, but they are not the "rulers". We do have a leader or a "pastor" in the group, but as I said, we do have elders that look after our doctrinal health , and physical health, as they do pray for us for healing when we ask.

We started as a morning Bible study, and now it started to grow and the families asked to move it to the evening so everybody can come. So we are relatively new, and God has not sent us any of the five fold ministry, so we are not going to create it ourselves. We wait on Him and He will decide what to do with us.

C