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Enoch

This is the whole point of this thread is that Enoch was not taken up to the third heaven to be with God. If he or anyone else were then that would make Jesus a liar in John 3:13.

Was Paul then lying in the telling of his story? Again--

I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man–whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows– was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me. (2 Cor 12)
 
Was Paul then lying in the telling of his story? Again--

I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man–whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows– was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me. (2 Cor 12)
I already explained this in post #13.
 
I already explained this in post #13.

But you didn't. You side-stepped it.

You just made a very bold statement-

This is the whole point of this thread is that Enoch was not taken up to the third heaven to be with God. If he or anyone else were then that would make Jesus a liar in John 3:13.

Paul said "he knew a man who...."

You are saying that Paul is making Jesus a liar. I referenced 2 Cor 12, you responded with 2 Cor 5.
 
But you didn't. You side-stepped it.

You just made a very bold statement-



Paul said "he knew a man who...."

You are saying that Paul is making Jesus a liar. I referenced 2 Cor 12, you responded with 2 Cor 5.
This is what I said in post #13 as I did not side step anything.

Absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.

No, I am not saying Paul is making Jesus a liar, but only showing when we are caught up in the Spirit, not being taken up to the third heaven, that we can receive visions given to us by the Holy Spirit.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul said he didn't know whether this man was in the body or out of his body as only God would know. When we are in the Spirit, some call it being slain in the Spirit which is scriptural in 2Chronicles 5:14; John 18:6, Acts 9:4-8; Rev 1:17, we are in the presence of the Lord as all dreams and visions come from the third heaven brought down to us. A great example would be that of John who received all these visions while being held as a prisoner on the isle of Patmos, Rev 1:9-10.
 
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This is what I said in post #13 as I did not side step anything.

Absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.

No, I am not saying Paul is making Jesus a liar, but only showing when we are caught up in the Spirit, not being taken up to the third heaven, that we can receive visions given to us by the Holy Spirit.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul said he didn't know whether this man was in the body or out of his body as only God would know. When we are in the Spirit, some call it being slain in the Spirit which is scriptural in 2Chronicles 5:14; John 18:6, Acts 9:4-8; Rev 1:17, we are in the presence of the Lord as all dreams and visions come from the third heaven brought down to us. A great example would be that of John who received all these visions while being held as a prisoner on the isle of Patmos, Rev 1:9-10.

Again-- Paul said he knew a man who was taken up into the third heaven-- into Paradise. You said that this wasn't possible while insisting that if Enoch or anyone else had been taken up into heaven Jesus must have been a liar.

Maybe you misspoke-- but that's what you said. I think your notion results from a misunderstanding of that passage in John 3.
 
Again-- Paul said he knew a man who was taken up into the third heaven-- into Paradise. You said that this wasn't possible while insisting that if Enoch or anyone else had been taken up into heaven Jesus must have been a liar.

Maybe you misspoke-- but that's what you said. I think your notion results from a misunderstanding of that passage in John 3.
Read 2 Corinthians 12:2-3 again as Paul said he only knew this man and that he did not know if this man was in or out of his body and caught up to the third heaven.

I already explained about being slain in the Spirit and hearing the voice of God, more likely Jesus as in my own experience, as our spirit is caught up to that voice that is in the third heaven making it seem like we are actually there, not actually taken into the Spiritual realm of God in the third heaven as no one can see God and live. Knowing Jesus said that no one has ever been taken up to the third heaven, but He himself, Paul would be contradicting what Jesus said in John 3:13 if this man was literally taken up to the third heaven.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, but only giving my understanding in how I study this on my own.
 
Edward

Gen 5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
Gen 5:19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.


Enoch walked faithfully with God, which reveals why he was so special to God as God sent him out to preach to others in the land of Mesopotamia situated between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Today this would be the areas of Iraq, Kuwait, Turkey and Syria. In this wicked period before the Flood, most men did not walk faithfully with God. They walked their own path, the crooked way of sin. Enoch did not keep silent about the sin around him as Jude says Enoch prophesied against their evil ways and the judgement that would come upon them.

In Jude 1:14-16 we read that those who Enoch preached to were very sinful people and Enoch did not keep silent about the sin around him as he prophesied against those walking after their own lusts. Jude says Enoch prophesied against those evil people and that would have made them angry enough to put Enoch to death.

According to Genesis 5:23, Enoch’s life-span was 365 years, which was much younger then others in that time period. Throughout those years, he walked in faith, and that made all the difference. No matter what happened, he trusted God. He obeyed God. God loved Enoch so much he spared him the experience of death as God translated him that he should not see death as no one could find him, but never says where he was translated. It's only man's traditional teachings that say he was taken up to the third heaven, but this would come against what Jesus said in John 3:13.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch stood out from many others as He walked with God in great faith. He being taken by God that he could not be found or taste death could be that God translated/transferred him to a safer place, like that of Elijah and Philip that were only translated/transferred, that Enoch would not see the kind of violent death that would have otherwise come upon him in a hostile atmosphere where he was preaching the word of God. What Enoch taught would have challenged the heretical beliefs of those in that area who no doubt worshiped their own gods and idols just like those in Jerusalem that came against Christ and had Him killed.

(Side note)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Act 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.


Many false teachers believe Elijah and Enoch went to heaven. But as you pointed out that was impossible since no man entered heaven( Gods dwelling place before Jesus ascended) I am pretty sure God ended Enochs life, but Elijah was retired and taken somewhere else on earth.
 
Many false teachers believe Elijah and Enoch went to heaven. But as you pointed out that was impossible since no man entered heaven( Gods dwelling place before Jesus ascended) I am pretty sure God ended Enochs life, but Elijah was retired and taken somewhere else on earth.
Scripture only says God took him, but doesn't say where so only room for speculations.
 
According to Genesis 5:23, Enoch’s life-span was 365 years, which was much younger then others in that time period. Throughout those years, he walked in faith, and that made all the difference. No matter what happened, he trusted God. He obeyed God. God loved Enoch so much he spared him the experience of death as God translated him that he should not see death as no one could find him, but never says where he was translated. It's only man's traditional teachings that say he was taken up to the third heaven, but this would come against what Jesus said in John 3:13.
The problem is not understanding John 3:13
Gonna go off topic 4 a sec , only because of the verse in question.

Born again means to be born from above . Christ came from Heaven as do all souls ,it's like He didn't ask us to do anything they He wouldn't .

In other words we were with God before being born of woman
 
The problem is not understanding John 3:13
Gonna go off topic 4 a sec , only because of the verse in question.

Born again means to be born from above . Christ came from Heaven as do all souls ,it's like He didn't ask us to do anything they He wouldn't .

In other words we were with God before being born of woman
You a Mormon? They believe the above. We were not with God before being born. Jesus was with God and was God. We were not AND WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT, we will never be gods. Back to the topic.

The fact is, what the reality is in the heavenlies we do not know and cannot know unless or until we go there. Who is where is not something we need to know nor is it given.

It’s a fallacy to argue the “my way or God lied” argument because we are too ignorant at this point. There are statements in the Bible about which we need enlightenment to understand as God does.

“It’s appointed for man to die once..” and then we have Enoch and Elijah who seem to have been taken without dying.

“No one is righteous” and then we have “Zachariah and Elisabeth were righteous.”

“This gospel has been preached to the whole world” and we know of remote tribes who still haven’t heard.

If we look at the scripture like a western-minded lawyer thinking these words bind God to doing exactly what we think it means, we will miss the mind of Christ.

The question is, do we want truth or do we want to be in “the know and right?”
 
You a Mormon? They believe the above. We were not with God before being born. Jesus was with God and was God. We were not AND WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT, we will never be gods. Back to the topic.

The fact is, what the reality is in the heavenlies we do not know and cannot know unless or until we go there. Who is where is not something we need to know nor is it given.

It’s a fallacy to argue the “my way or God lied” argument because we are too ignorant at this point. There are statements in the Bible about which we need enlightenment to understand as God does.

“It’s appointed for man to die once..” and then we have Enoch and Elijah who seem to have been taken without dying.

“No one is righteous” and then we have “Zachariah and Elisabeth were righteous.”

“This gospel has been preached to the whole world” and we know of remote tribes who still haven’t heard.

If we look at the scripture like a western-minded lawyer thinking these words bind God to doing exactly what we think it means, we will miss the mind of Christ.

The question is, do we want truth or do we want to be in “the know and right?”
For sure not a Mormon ? And nowhere did I say we were gods .Do you understand predestined ? It's in the scripture ,look it up.

Do you understand why God hated Esau before he was even born ?
 
For sure not a Mormon ? And nowhere did I say we were gods .Do you understand predestined ? It's in the scripture ,look it up.

Do you understand why God hated Esau before he was even born ?
You said, “
Born again means to be born from above . Christ came from Heaven as do all souls ,it's like He didn't ask us to do anything they He wouldn't .

In other words we were with God before being born of woman”

We were certainly not “with God before being born” but this is something the Mormons believe. Hence my question. If you aren’t, your theology on this point resembles them.

Predestined for Heaven is not in the scripture so I can’t look it up.
 
You said, “
Born again means to be born from above . Christ came from Heaven as do all souls ,it's like He didn't ask us to do anything they He wouldn't .

In other words we were with God before being born of woman”

We were certainly not “with God before being born” but this is something the Mormons believe. Hence my question. If you aren’t, your theology on this point resembles them.

Predestined for Heaven is not in the scripture so I can’t look it up.
Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified , them He glorified."

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."


Twist the above as you will, but it still won't change the facts
 
Many false teachers believe Elijah and Enoch went to heaven. But as you pointed out that was impossible since no man entered heaven( Gods dwelling place before Jesus ascended) I am pretty sure God ended Enochs life, but Elijah was retired and taken somewhere else on earth.

SO let me see if I understand you correctly. God took Enoch so that he should not see death...and then killed Enoch?
 
Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified , them He glorified."

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."


Twist the above as you will, but it still won't change the facts
Predestined to be confirmed to the image of his son, not Heaven. And THAT is what I said. There is no predestination for heaven (or hell) before you were born. Only predestined you be like Jesus. So this begs the question, are you like Jesus? If not, are you then not predestined as this cannot be said of you?

The Romans passage refers only
to the nations, not the men. God loved Esau and gave him land for him and his descendants.
 
The problem is not understanding John 3:13
Gonna go off topic 4 a sec , only because of the verse in question.

Born again means to be born from above . Christ came from Heaven as do all souls ,it's like He didn't ask us to do anything they He wouldn't .

In other words we were with God before being born of woman
Can you explain what you mean by we were with God before we were born?
 
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