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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Enoch
- Thread starter for_his_glory
- Start date
In a round about way as all along I have been saying that God took Enoch, but doesn't say where God took him. Majority rule traditional teachings are not always true as I was caught up into that until I read the book of Enoch and searched out the area he preached in. Just because my conclusions do not match up with others, it doesn't mean either one of us are right or wrong. We study to show ourself approved unto God, not man.
Apparently you don't realize that 2 Timothy 2:15 in the King James translation doesn't mean what you think it means. "Study" doesn't mean the devotion of time and attention to acquiring knowledge on an academic subject, especially by means of books. It means "do your best" or "make every effort", as it is correctly translated in modern translations.
I'm only talking about the literal seven Churches in Asia that John wrote letters to while he was imprisoned on the isle of Patmos, but yet being the body of Christ as we are all today with Jesus being the head of the body.
2Tim2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
If we are to rightly divide the word of truth from error than we had better be studying the word of God and what the Prophets wrote, even if the book of Enoch is not in the Bible, but yet he being a called Prophet of God. I seriously doubt that very many have even read the book of Enoch.
Edward
2024 Supporter
But if you keep reading evelation identifies those people as...
Revelation 6:
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. 10 They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters[f]—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them.../
Those are martyrs which have been slain because of their testimony about Jesus Christ and I think they were told to rest for now because more martyrs will be joining then, prolly from the tribulation. He didn't leave them there!
When Jesus gave up the Ghost, He descended into Hell and preached to the condemned and freed the captives.
Remember after Jesus died it said a lot of saints were raised and went home in Jerusalem and many people saw them. (I don't think they stayed there long.)
That's quite a response to a simple question asking if you ever consider original languages.
Take that chip off your shoulder if you ever want a conversation.
It's a common tactic to change the subject when you have no reasonable response. Your post is a perfect example.
The creation account informs us that what we have come to think of as 'heaven' is not what scripture describes. The "expanse" is clearly described as the "division between" things. Hebrew uses the word "raqia" to convey the concept that there is a distance between two distinctly different ideas.
We see these two different ideas in the very first verse of scripture where 'in the beginning elohim created the heavens and the earth.' At that moment where those two elements are introduced neither are defined. If you continue reading on, both terms are subsequently defined so that we might know what is being referenced.
The earth- is later defined as the dry land, or more properly the dry land is called earth. And a distinction is made between two things-- dry land and water, but to understand completely you have to grasp hold of the broader concept. You need to embrace what is really being described and that is this idea of separation or division expressed in that original Hebrew. That raqia (dividing plane between) -- as well as badal (to divide, separate, partition) as they are simply ways of expressing the same concept.
Genesis 1:8 says clearly-- God called the raqia-- heaven.
Put down your preconceived notions, they are wrong. You've been misguided into thinking things and accepting ideas that stray far from the path.
To illustrate this idea of raqia- that God called heaven you have to grasp the concept that raqia is number one talking about division, and secondly that it is the division itself, the plane between. In essence it is the dividing line, but not in a physical sense-- in a conceptual sense.
As an example, if you walk North to South from anywhere in the so called Northern Hemisphere, you eventually will cross the equator. But you'll never trip over it, because it doesn't exist in a physical sense rather it's what we consider to be the dividing line between north and south. Do you see? The equator is a 'raqia' and it 'badals' the earth into equal and opposite parts. (conceptually).
Another example is a set of scales-- like you often see depicted in courtrooms- what we call the scales of justice.
That fulcrum point is the raqia-- the division between one side and the other.
The same concept can be considered in other ways, maybe seemingly strange at first, but hear me out. What God called 'heaven' as recorded right at the beginning of the book of beginnings is a place between, -it isn't an end point. Think that through. It can be thought of also in a manner like this-- a caterpillar lives a whole life as a worm, and then it's body is covered with a silk cloth and it dies, it's body dissolves but this process is not the end because that puddle of liquid it becomes within the chrysalis is transformed into a butterfly (or a moth)-- a new creature! Strange perhaps, but in a certain way, we can think of this interim period of 'metamorphosis' as heaven. A period of 'in between' -a raqia.
And I know this seems strange and new. Think on it. Consider what he was talking about concerning the kingdom of heaven.
When he walked with us, he said-
“Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. “They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
As an example, if you walk North to South from anywhere in the so called Northern Hemisphere, you eventually will cross the equator. But you'll never trip over it, because it doesn't exist in a physical sense rather it's what we consider to be the dividing line between north and south. Do you see? The equator is a 'raqia' and it 'badals' the earth into equal and opposite parts. (conceptually).
Another example is a set of scales-- like you often see depicted in courtrooms- what we call the scales of justice.
That fulcrum point is the raqia-- the division between one side and the other.
The same concept can be considered in other ways, maybe seemingly strange at first, but hear me out. What God called 'heaven' as recorded right at the beginning of the book of beginnings is a place between, -it isn't an end point. Think that through. It can be thought of also in a manner like this-- a caterpillar lives a whole life as a worm, and then it's body is covered with a silk cloth and it dies, it's body dissolves but this process is not the end because that puddle of liquid it becomes within the chrysalis is transformed into a butterfly (or a moth)-- a new creature! Strange perhaps, but in a certain way, we can think of this interim period of 'metamorphosis' as heaven. A period of 'in between' -a raqia.
And I know this seems strange and new. Think on it. Consider what he was talking about concerning the kingdom of heaven.
When he walked with us, he said-
“Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. “They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
Edward
2024 Supporter
This is the verse that taught me that not being able to go to college is a good thing because they teach conform the students to the ways of the world. I hear that most who go in to college waith a Faith, do not come out of it with a Faith. But you'll be able to get a good job and afford a million dollar house!
Be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind...
Edward
2024 Supporter
But you seem to have almost the same understanding of it as I do. The "expanse" is just space. So we have yet another term! Lol.
But I think they had to teach this to the slow learner humans with a concept they could visualize and conceive. So 1st Heaven, 2nd, 3rd, are actually describes as "up" but in reality are the other dimensions. Scientist's say we have provable 10 or 11 dimensions that we are living in. Scripture says there are more but no number is given and that four of them are knowable.
But Christians know that Heaven is not up. It is not astral projection to seek God. For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Beside you and inside you. You do the opposite of astral projection and don't go out, you go in. Inside yourself and seek Good through your heart. Inside your heart is your own personal Holy of Holies where you can find God and talk with Him!
"He's over there!!" No He's not. I am in Christ. Christ is in me. Jesus goes before me, covers my rear, is beside me and inside me.
So I wouldn't have to go look. If Jesus tells me to go look I guess I will, lol.
??? what are you talking about
You said in your post #111 "Do you ever consider the original Hebrew? I'm asking because it seems like you often ignore it completely in favor of your own views, which you then present as facts rather than ideas or opinions."
No chip on my shoulder and when have I ever told others to agree with me or that I am always right. These are my views and understandings, just like everyone else that gives their views and understandings as we discuss them with each other. What problem do you have with that?
None of us know each other personally face to face, nor how each of us study. Divisions and arguments only come by those who always deem themself right and everyone is wrong because they have no understanding (Not directed at any one particular) and this should not be as it tears another down when we should be lifting up and edifying each other even if we disagree.
I started this thread from a conversation Edward and I were having in another thread in which I did not want to derail it. What I give in this thread or any other thread are my views and understandings and I do use the original Hebrew and Greek when I need to look up certain words. We are a diverse group and we all bring something to the plate that some might not of understood before and sometimes we get that "aha" moment and go back and dig a little deeper into the scriptures.
I just want that you and I can get along with each other from this point on and let the past be the past. If you or anyone else has a problem with me I would appreciate that it could be resolved in TWTS as I hate airing dirty laundry in the forums, especially when new members come here looking for a forum they can discuss with others not seeing it as a battle ground.
I extend my hand of friendship to you, will you shake my hand and put all of this behind us?
Yes-- that's exactly what I asked and all I asked, to which you responded:
All you had to say was what you say now---
But you didn't. You revealed true colors-- and the extending of your hand in friendship I noticed didn't include any kind of apology, so I'll pass thanks. I'm not looking for those kinds of friends. You don't get to treat people rudely, accuse them of "dogging you" and tell them to "get off your back" and then pretend like it didn't happen. I mean, you certainly CAN pretend it didn't, but it did. As a "Moderator" you should aim to be more moderate.
Wonderful- yes! You are headed in the proper direction Edward. You say 'most Christians know that Heaven is not up' and maybe that's true in an academic or esoteric sense where they do know this, but the ideas they have of heaven are not what you or I are pointing toward. Incidentally- I didn't mean "you" in a particular way in my response to you. I often use a universal "you" when trying to explain things in the sense of meaning everyone- you, me, and everyone else. Like- 'You understand the sky is above you and all around you.' - I mean everyone understands that, but maybe few consider that the sky at some point touches the ground, so in a sense you are walking through the sky, breathing the sky in and out, and there is at some point an end to the sky and something yet above that point.-- That's esoteric knowledge, that only a few would grasp as initiates to the idea, while most would agree when thinking about it- it isn't what they would immediately consider when talking about the sky. Such is heaven.
In fact--in Hebrew, it's the very same word.
Edward
2024 Supporter
You can not show me where the sky touches the ground, lol. Or where our Atmosphere turns to space. No dividing lines. But yet, they are divided.
We are walking through the sky. Soon we will be flying. We breath in the sky...and the Atmosphere is probably saturated with spiritual beings, both Good and evil. So I suppose if one walks in the Spirit then the Spirit leads us through the breaths of life, and not, the breaths of death?
Scripture is clear. The enemy is in the air. Prince of the power of the air and all that. God is also, He is in all and everywhere.
Hey, more people than ever have trouble breathing nowadays. They might be breathing the wrong air?
All the up directions and down directions have changed with time.
Creation symbolism starts out hidden.
Law symbolism is described, but veiled.
The kingdom symbolism starts with John the Baptist.
Jesus described the Kingdom to his disciples, but preached to the multitudes in parables.
The apostles,after Pentecost, revealed / explained a lot of truth that had been hidden.
Revelation explains the New Jerusalem with old and new symbolism.
And no matter how intelligent we may think we are, we must be born again to see the kingdom of God inside us.
Rightly dividing the scripture requires dividing scripture into separated areas and then paralleling the levels of understanding.
If you got nothing out of what I said, then you understand why people thought Pauls knowledge had driven him mad.
I love the book of Job.
Job 38:11 kjv
11. And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Storm waves stop in shallow water (beaches).
The harm Satan wanted to do to Job was limited ( this far and no more).
Same concept but explained in two physical areas, and we see the spiritual strength in Job. Plus the spiritual understanding went from hearing to seeing.
Each one of us may be on different levels, but hopefully headed to having the same mind in Christ.
New Jerusalem is really interesting to me, but we are discussing the time of Enoch. Ultimately we do try and bring our knowledge all the way up to our present age and into eternity.
Mississippi redneck
eddif.
Creation symbolism starts out hidden.
Law symbolism is described, but veiled.
The kingdom symbolism starts with John the Baptist.
Jesus described the Kingdom to his disciples, but preached to the multitudes in parables.
The apostles,after Pentecost, revealed / explained a lot of truth that had been hidden.
Revelation explains the New Jerusalem with old and new symbolism.
And no matter how intelligent we may think we are, we must be born again to see the kingdom of God inside us.
Rightly dividing the scripture requires dividing scripture into separated areas and then paralleling the levels of understanding.
If you got nothing out of what I said, then you understand why people thought Pauls knowledge had driven him mad.
I love the book of Job.
Job 38:11 kjv
11. And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Storm waves stop in shallow water (beaches).
The harm Satan wanted to do to Job was limited ( this far and no more).
Same concept but explained in two physical areas, and we see the spiritual strength in Job. Plus the spiritual understanding went from hearing to seeing.
Each one of us may be on different levels, but hopefully headed to having the same mind in Christ.
New Jerusalem is really interesting to me, but we are discussing the time of Enoch. Ultimately we do try and bring our knowledge all the way up to our present age and into eternity.
Mississippi redneck
eddif.
Please take this to TWTS. Will no longer discuss it here.