Enoch

[Mister E]

Exactly , no one has ascended and came back from heaven to earth .

In John Chapter 3 Jesus is talking to Nicodemus and Jesus is telling him that no one has ascended to heaven in such a way as to return and talk about heavenly things. Jesus want Nicodemus to understand that it is only Jesus that has first hand knowledge of heaven and can tell of it on earth at this time .

Where are Enoch and Elijah ? I believe they are where God wants them to be for right now .
I think Enoch and Elijah will be the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation .
Every man is appointed once to die .
My thoughts anyway .

What it really says is what goes up must come down.

And furthermore, it had to have first come down before it could ever have gone up.

Sound the trumpets!

 

[for_his_glory]

There's no clear proof that Paul was taken to the third Heaven either. But he has witnessed about it and we have to believe it. Do youbelieve that Paul went to the third Heaven like it says?

Again, Paul never said he was taken up to the third heaven, but that he knew a man, whether in the body or out of the body, he did not know, such an one caught up to the third heaven. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

When God speaks to us many times we receive visions from Him or He sends an angel to speak to us feeling like we are caught up to the third heaven, but only while being in the Spirit still being here on earth in our own body as some call it being slain in the Spirit like that of 2Chronicles 5:13-14; John 18:6, Acts 9:3-8; Acts 10:1-8; Rev 1:17.

Enoch received many visions from God and God also transferred him to many places here on earth that were like paradise to him.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ok I see it now. That's why I posted that passage in the NLT and not the KJV. Because in the KJV Paul speaks in the 3rd person, because he doesnt want to boast. Rather to boast in his weaknesses.

Again, in the NLT for added clarity, I pick it up at verse 5 in 2nd Corinthians 12.

5 That experience is worth boasting about, but I’m not going to do it. I will boast only about my weaknesses. 6 If I wanted to boast, I would be no fool in doing so, because I would be telling the truth. But I won’t do it, because I don’t want anyone to give me credit beyond what they can see in my life or hear in my message, 7 even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.

8 Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away. 9 Each time he said, “My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness.” So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. 10 That’s why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.../NLT

The NLT goes ahead and writes it in the 1st person cuz Paul just didn't want to boast. Paul went to the third Heaven just like it says.

I can see that as being possible about Paul speaking in the 3rd person, but even Paul was not taken up to the third heaven as his experience was on the road to Damascus and those who were with him only heard the voice speaking to him, but not the one speaking to him. That shows that Paul was not taken up to the third heaven and brought back down again.

 

[Randy]

Elijah was taken into heaven.
Now when the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.

As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a whirlwind into heaven.

And good reasoning would state the same for Enoch.

 

[Edward]

Again, Paul never said he was taken up to the third heaven, but that he knew a man, whether in the body or out of the body, he did not know, such an one caught up to the third heaven. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

When God speaks to us many times we receive visions from Him or He sends an angel to speak to us feeling like we are caught up to the third heaven, but only while being in the Spirit still being here on earth in our own body as some call it being slain in the Spirit like that of 2Chronicles 5:13-14; John 18:6, Acts 9:3-8; Acts 10:1-8; Rev 1:17.

Enoch received many visions from God and God also transferred him to many places here on earth that were like paradise to him.

But if you read further than the first four verses, Paul explains that he is not trying to boast and so that is why he is speaking in the third person.

I do not understand that passage the same way that you do. It seems well established that it was Paul who went to the third Heaven, even some other translations make it read from the first person, like the NLT.

The part about he heard words that are unlawful to utter was a poor translation of it. I've heard about this. What it actually means is, Paul heard things and words which man is unable to utter. As in, we have no words for them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Man, those girls just don't want to let Enoch into Heaven! Lol.

Is anything too hard for God? Can our Lord God say, Come up hither and I will show you things...

Oh here it is. Revelation 4

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne..../KJV

So John went to the throne room of God. In spirit. But the point is, if God wants to call you front and center, just one come up hither and you are there. So yes I believe the word of God. Paul got to go there too. And at least some of those Testimonies stand to be true also then. Just because deception is their prinary tool doesn't mean truth isn't being spoken from many people.

We must be misunderstanding in that no one has ascended to Heaven but He who descended down passage because from what I can tell, God has been snatching people up right and left, as well as manifesting Him self on earth to people.

John was never taken up to the third heaven as he received his visions from an angel that Jesus sent to him on the isle of Patmos as John received these visions while being in the Spirit like many of us have and like those in those testimonies they give.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

[Edward]

I can see that as being possible about Paul speaking in the 3rd person, but even Paul was not taken up to the third heaven as his experience was on the road to Damascus and those who were with him only heard the voice speaking to him, but not the one speaking to him. That shows that Paul was not taken up to the third heaven and brought back down again.

All this shows is that Paul wasn't taken up to the third heaven on the same trip to damascus. That prolly happened later.

 

[Edward]

John was never taken up to the third heaven as he received his visions from an angel that Jesus sent to him on the isle of Patmos as John received these visions while being in the Spirit like many of us have and like those in those testimonies they give.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John wasn't taken up? What about Revelation 4?

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.../

Come up hither surely indicates that John was taken someplace here rather than just standing in place on Patmos and seeing a vision. And "up" suggests, not on earth.

 

[Randy]

John wasn't taken up? What about Revelation 4?

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.../

Come up hither surely indicates that John was taken someplace here rather than just standing in place on Patmos and seeing a vision. And "up" suggests, not on earth.

It seems clear to me his spirit was caught up to the presence of God in heaven.

 

[Edward]

You see, you are quoting from Revelation 1 and it does say that an Angel brought John the message.
But if you keep reading, Revelation 2 and 3 the Angel is telling John what to write to the churches. So those words wern't unlawful to utter...lol.

Now I've been quoting Revelation 4 so let's take one more peek there...

Revelation 4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.../

It begins with "After this" ok? After what? After having a vision of an Angel telling him to write letters to some churches which is detailed in chapters 2 & 3. Ok so after that, he's changing the subject now. Nothing about an Angel here, it says a door was opened in Heaven and a voice said, come up here and I will show you things.

So it's pretty clearly not the same event. The Angel and that vision was first about writing letters, then...prolly a different day...Come up Here John!

Who knows how many times John or Paul had visions or were taken up? It might've happened weekly to them!

All I know is in Rev. 1 it says and Angel was sent to John. And in Rev. 4, it says Come up here...Hmm.

 

[Edward]

It seems clear to me his spirit was caught up to the presence of God in heaven.

I'll buy that. So it was spiritual. In spirit. But he still went. He was still there. Right?

 

[for_his_glory]

A door in Heaven was opened. That sounds like a Portal! I believe that some people have been translated to the third Heaven, and some others have been what they call Transrelocated which is being taken to another place on earth, Like Phillip did after Baptizing the Ethyopian man.

The door being opened is a metaphor like that of Rev 3:20. It's not a literal door as we know in reading Rev1:1 that Jesus sent an angel to John to give him these visions as John was not taken up to the third heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

Then you can't try to limit the conversation to your narrow understanding.





You can't approach understanding John 3:13 without addressing the idea of spiritual pre-existence.

It's relevant in showing what Jesus has already said about no one ever being taken up to heaven. Talking about Esau and and that we were all in heaven before we were born has no bearing on the OP. We are only discussing Enoch and some others like Paul or Elijah that some think have been taken up to the third heaven, but mainly Enoch.

 

[Randy]

I'll buy that. So it was spiritual. In spirit. But he still went. He was still there. Right?

Yes, but at the time Jesus made His statement it hadn't occurred yet.
Though I think Jesus's point was He came down from heaven (starting point) and would ascend where He was before (end point) That is unique to Jesus.

 

[Randy]

It's relevant in showing what Jesus has already said about no one ever being taken up to heaven. Talking about Esau and and that we were all in heaven before we were born has no bearing on the OP. We are only discussing Enoch and some others like Paul or Elijah that some think have been taken up to the third heaven, but mainly Enoch.

It it in scripture Elijah was taken into heaven as in ascended.

 

[for_his_glory]

Way to go bro, Moderate the Moderator, lol. I can't believe you said that to her. Different threads are for for different discussions. Start an Esau thrad if you want to. It was off topic for this thread.

Back on topic of this thread, do you know anyone that you've never met before?

So when Jesus said, I knew you before you were in the womb, it becomes perfectly clear that we existed in Heaven first even if only in spirit. But we were conscious, and apparently talked to Jesus enough that He says He knows me!

That's not a, hey howareya as your walking past someone on the street. That's not I know you.

And I've managed to get to know Jesus enough that He has revealed some of His character traits to me. He is not the big angry God, He is a very nice guy. Humble. It leaves me in awe how He talks.

He is so nice that He answered a prayer that I did not pray. I decided not to pray for it because scripture says, He already knows what we need today and tomorrow. So I didn't. And He delivered a two pound bag of gourmet coffee beans to my door, knock knock. I kid you not!

You see, I had company call and was going to be on their way over. I like being a good host, but I had just made the last 1/2 pot of coffee. I didn't have a cup of coffee to give to my friend while he was here. I had no money at that moment. I thought about praying for God's help. But I remembered that scripture so figured I don't have to pray for coffee or grocery money, He knows. So I did not pray for that.

and 30 minutes coffee was knocking on my door! He delivered it through my friend. My friend did not know I was out of coffee. He just was bringing me a small gift cuz he knows I like my coffee, lol.

But by not praying for it, that was an action of faith. Standing on God's Word in faith. And when we stand on God's word in faith...that is exactly what the Lord responds to. That's what He does! I have a bunch of Testimonies but I kind of hold the delivered coffee to my door as prolly the most coolest Testimonies of all of mine so far.

But, what relevance does this have to do with Enoch being taken up to the third heaven. This is why I deleted all those post as they need to be another thread if you would like to start one.

 

[for_his_glory]

One other thought I had . If you say you ascended the stairs it would mean you went up the stairs under your own power . If you are taken up the stairs it would be with help that you get up the stairs .

??? can you elaborate more on that, thank you.

 

[for_his_glory]

Elijah was taken into heaven.
Now when the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.

As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a whirlwind into heaven.

And good reasoning would state the state the same for Enoch.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. There came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.


When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.


What some people do not know is that there are three heavens. The first heaven is the Atmosphere, the air surrounding the earth. Birds fly "in the heaven" - certainly not to God's throne. We read in Genesis l:2 of "foul that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." Jacob, when blessing Isaac, said: "God give you of the dew of heaven," and Moses was joyful that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (Gen.27:28; Deut.33:28). The dew comes from the first heaven - the atmosphere. The second heaven is the expanse of this awesome universe - where the stars, moon and planets are. The Psalmists often wrote about the "Heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon, and the stars, which you have ordained" (Ps.8:3; Gen.1:15-17). The third heaven is where the throne of God exists, where the heavenly temple is found and the heavenly Jerusalem.


2 Chronicles Chapter 21 - Jehoram, being the son of Jehoshaphat, was 32 when he began his reign in Israel. He married Ahab's daughter and was a wicked king who reigned for eight years. According to scripture Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, 2 Kings 2:11-13. The heaven Elijah went up to was only the first heaven being the atmosphere as there are three heavens described in scripture as the throne of God is in the third heaven. A whirlwind can only happen within the atmosphere of the first heaven. During the reign of Jehoram he received a letter from Elijah, 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. How could he receive a letter from Elijah if he was with God in the third heaven? Elijah being caught up to heaven is the same as Phillip being caught up in the first heaven and carried thirty miles away, Acts 8:39, 40. The only difference is that when the fifty men searched for Elijah they could not find him as he was translated further than their search. Phillip was found within the thirty mile radius where he was translated to.​

 

[for_his_glory]

But if you read further than the first four verses, Paul explains that he is not trying to boast and so that is why he is speaking in the third person.

I do not understand that passage the same way that you do. It seems well established that it was Paul who went to the third Heaven, even some other translations make it read from the first person, like the NLT.

The part about he heard words that are unlawful to utter was a poor translation of it. I've heard about this. What it actually means is, Paul heard things and words which man is unable to utter. As in, we have no words for them.

I already agreed that Paul was probably talking in the third person. I'm not questioning that.

 

[for_his_glory]

All this shows is that Paul wasn't taken up to the third heaven on the same trip to damascus. That prolly happened later.

You will have to show me in scripture where this happened later as I can not speculate on this.