Enoch

[for_his_glory]

You see, you are quoting from Revelation 1 and it does say that an Angel brought John the message.
But if you keep reading, Revelation 2 and 3 the Angel is telling John what to write to the churches. So those words wern't unlawful to utter...lol.

Now I've been quoting Revelation 4 so let's take one more peek there...

Revelation 4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.../

It begins with "After this" ok? After what? After having a vision of an Angel telling him to write letters to some churches which is detailed in chapters 2 & 3. Ok so after that, he's changing the subject now. Nothing about an Angel here, it says a door was opened in Heaven and a voice said, come up here and I will show you things.

So it's pretty clearly not the same event. The Angel and that vision was first about writing letters, then...prolly a different day...Come up Here John!

Who knows how many times John or Paul had visions or were taken up? It might've happened weekly to them!

All I know is in Rev. 1 it says and Angel was sent to John. And in Rev. 4, it says Come up here...Hmm.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Every vision from Revelation 1-22 are all visions given to John by that of the angel Jesus sent him while he was on the isle of Patmos. Beginning with the messages to the seven churches in Asia clear up to all those things that will come to pass before Christ returns and ends with the Great White throne judgement.

 

[Randy]

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. There came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.


When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.


What some people do not know is that there are three heavens. The first heaven is the Atmosphere, the air surrounding the earth. Birds fly "in the heaven" - certainly not to God's throne. We read in Genesis l:2 of "foul that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." Jacob, when blessing Isaac, said: "God give you of the dew of heaven," and Moses was joyful that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (Gen.27:28; Deut.33:28). The dew comes from the first heaven - the atmosphere. The second heaven is the expanse of this awesome universe - where the stars, moon and planets are. The Psalmists often wrote about the "Heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon, and the stars, which you have ordained" (Ps.8:3; Gen.1:15-17). The third heaven is where the throne of God exists, where the heavenly temple is found and the heavenly Jerusalem.


2 Chronicles Chapter 21 - Jehoram, being the son of Jehoshaphat, was 32 when he began his reign in Israel. He married Ahab's daughter and was a wicked king who reigned for eight years. According to scripture Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, 2 Kings 2:11-13. The heaven Elijah went up to was only the first heaven being the atmosphere as there are three heavens described in scripture as the throne of God is in the third heaven. A whirlwind can only happen within the atmosphere of the first heaven. During the reign of Jehoram he received a letter from Elijah, 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. How could he receive a letter from Elijah if he was with God in the third heaven? Elijah being caught up to heaven is the same as Phillip being caught up in the first heaven and carried thirty miles away, Acts 8:39, 40. The only difference is that when the fifty men searched for Elijah they could not find him as he was translated further than their search. Phillip was found within the thirty mile radius where he was translated to.​

That's your take. The scripture states ascended into heaven not into the sky.

I think Jesus's point was no has come down from heaven (starting point) and ascended to where He was before (end point) That will always be unique to Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

That's your take. The scripture states ascended into heaven not into the sky.

I think Jesus's point was no has come down from heaven (starting point) and ascended to where He was before (end point) That will always be unique to Jesus.

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).

The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.
Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).





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[hawkman]

What it really says is what goes up must come down.

And furthermore, it had to have first come down before it could ever have gone up.

Sound the trumpets!

I did have some things to say about Esau but since he got knocked out of the thread that is out .
BS&T what a band .

 

[jasonc]

Esau off topic but not edom ,lol

If heaven is the clouds ,then when Moses and the elders saw God in the clouds .what was that ?

 

[n2thelight]

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).

The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.
Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).





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There are 3 Heaven ages not 3 Heavens IMO, as I see scripture

I like to look at it like a different dimension , as such Heaven is all around us ,but we can't see it .Example

II Kings 6:16 "And he answered, "Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them."

II Kings 6:17 "And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see." And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."


There were vehicles of fire that this young man saw, and he had never seen such a thing in his life; and the mountain side was full of them. This servant of Elisha had no fear when he was allowed to see into the realm of God's protection. This was in a dimension that no man could see with his eyes of the flesh body, but when his spiritual eyes were opened, the hosts of heaven were everywhere. God was thee and ready to protect his prophets. There are people that can see spiritual things that God does not intend for others to see and understand.

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[eddif]

I am just about worn out. I read the whole thing.

The Enoch ministry concept:
If God has a chosen man on a job ( especially just one good man), he will keep him alive till he completes the work he was sent to accomplish.

Jesus was sent to die on the cross, and not to be thrown over a cliff.
Luke 4:29 kjv
29. And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30. But he passing through the midst of them went his way,
31. And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

Just a minor blindness of the people he walked through.

Daniel did not die in the lions den. He still had work to do.

Jonah was going to cop out on his assignment, but overboard he went into a prepared fish.

Paul went to Rome with soldier guards.

Ok different contexts but the same concept. God is active in the affairs of His kingdom. If a person is not available to help a prophet - a bird may bring the food. Edward got very close on the coffee.

Then I may be off topic and be deleted.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

John 21:18 kjv
18. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Which is what for_his_glory was saying all along this thread.

eddif

 

[Randy]

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).

The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.
Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).





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The Lord sent a heavenly chariot to take Elijah into heaven not the sky. Your sowing doubt on clear passage of scriptures.

Now when the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.

As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[eddif]

The Lord sent a heavenly chariot to take Elijah into heaven not the sky. Your sowing doubt on clear passage of scriptures.

Now when the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.

As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a whirlwind into heaven.

We see through a glass darkly. The test in all of it is: do we recognize that each man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. We do not judge another man’s diet, it is between the man and God.
Diet:
Food
Word of God
Man does not live by food alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Luke 16:22 kjv
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Abraham’s bosom is a higher level of the grave.

for_his_glory is allowing and recommending personal study and prayer for revelation.

There is a diverse group on this web site. We may cringe at what we hear at times, but will we try to help or do like Jonah, and feel like God is too long suffering to those Ninevehites?
At the last trump we all will be changed to get those who are written in the lambs book of life ready for heaven.
eddif

 

[Mister E]

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).

The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.
Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).





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Do you ever consider the original Hebrew? I'm asking because it seems like you often ignore it completely in favor of your own views, which you then present as facts rather than ideas or opinions.

It's the same Hebrew word. 'shamayim' -- Same word. For heavens, and for highest heavens and for expanse and for sky.

There is "mayim" which is waters, and then there is "shamayim" the expanse, or separation between waters-- between the above and the below. And it's that word and that separation (not place) that we call heaven.

If folks don't understand this basic concept there is little they will understand. Do you understand it?

 

[Edward]

We see through a glass darkly. The test in all of it is: do we recognize that each man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. We do not judge another man’s diet, it is between the man and God.
Diet:
Food
Word of God
Man does not live by food alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

That's a real good point. The spiritual food is the word of God. Reading the word is food your spirit and makes us grow up into big healthy children of God.

Sometimes when I tell people a testimony or three of mine, they'll be like, I wish God would do things for me or talk to me. And these are always the people who do not read the Bible and they explain how hard to understand it is. They inhibit their own ability to grow spirutally by not persuing the word of God a lot.

Andwhen people don't read the word of God a lot, I think it also affects their prayer life. Because when you don't understand something in the Bible, that's when one prays to the Holy Spirit and asks him to explain it to you. After all, that is Holy Spirit's job, to lead us into all truth. Not some truth, all truth. The Holy Spirit will speak directly into a man if you are listening and receive it. Not an audible voice, but a perceived voice nonetheless.

Luke 16:22 kjv
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Abraham’s bosom is a higher level of the grave.

Right. And after Jesus was crucified he released all that were in Abrahams Bosom. Part of the new covenant is...absent from the body present with the Lord. So they didn't need Abrahams bosom after that, right?
That's how it seems to me.

 

[Edward]

There is "mayim" which is waters, and then there is "shamayim" the expanse, or separation between waters-- between the above and the below. And it's that word and that separation (not place) that we call heaven.

That's how I understand it too. But our atmosphere is the 1st heaven and outer space the 2nd heaven is what I was taught. The 3rd Heaven is the spiritual realm, where God dwells right now. Well maybe He is at His office for work and it's not really where He dwells. Even though He is everywhere. The throne room seems to be in the 3rd Heaven.

And since satan is the prince of the power of the air, he has air superiority. That's prolly demons in a lot of those UFO's that are seen.

I've heard that our sky was likely the color orange before the flood. And the earth became too evil so God had to poke the water ballon above to help flood the earth and then with no more water above Noah walked out of the ark to a bright blue sky like we know it.

Supposedly the covering of water made many things different on earth andincluding UV rays were less and oxygen was much richer back then. So the donosaurs would have died anyway with a much less oxygen content in the air. High O2 content is why things grew bigger in the past.
I dunno for sure but it could be.

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you ever consider the original Hebrew? I'm asking because it seems like you often ignore it completely in favor of your own views, which you then present as facts rather than ideas or opinions.

It's the same Hebrew word. 'shamayim' -- Same word. For heavens, and for highest heavens and for expanse and for sky.

There is "mayim" which is waters, and then there is "shamayim" the expanse, or separation between waters-- between the above and the below. And it's that word and that separation (not place) that we call heaven.

If folks don't understand this basic concept there is little they will understand. Do you understand it?

What I consider is you dogging me every chance you get as it's getting old. I gave all the scriptures that show there are three heavens as I don't think I need any Hebrew definition. If you have such a problem with me then that's your problem as I never tell anyone to agree with me and never tell anyone I am right. All that I post comes from 40 years of study as I share my views and my understandings like every one else does so please get off my back.

 

[for_his_glory]

Esau off topic but not edom ,lol

If heaven is the clouds ,then when Moses and the elders saw God in the clouds .what was that ?

Read post #103

 

[for_his_glory]

That's your take. The scripture states ascended into heaven not into the sky.

I think Jesus's point was no has come down from heaven (starting point) and ascended to where He was before (end point) That will always be unique to Jesus.

Of course everything is my take as being my views and understanding. I have never asked anyone to agree with me as that would be pretty arrogant of me to do so. We all have views and our own understandings as we share and discuss them with each other. If everyone is thinking I am forcing my views and understandings on them I have no intention of doing that. Some people study deeper than others, but it certainly does not make one right or wrong in how they understand scripture.

 

[jaybo]

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Every vision from Revelation 1-22 are all visions given to John by that of the angel Jesus sent him while he was on the isle of Patmos. Beginning with the messages to the seven churches in Asia clear up to all those things that will come to pass before Christ returns and ends with the Great White throne judgement.

You mean there is more than one church???

 

[jasonc]

Read post #103

There is a vision of God that was shown to all of isreal ,that said as they looked up they saw the feet of God,the sea of glass.

What John saw isn't anything that others long before didn't see .

I see more torah in John's vision .I should ask a jewess in my church who can read and recite Hebrew

 

[eddif]

That's a real good point. The spiritual food is the word of God. Reading the word is food your spirit and makes us grow up into big healthy children of God.

Sometimes when I tell people a testimony or three of mine, they'll be like, I wish God would do things for me or talk to me. And these are always the people who do not read the Bible and they explain how hard to understand it is. They inhibit their own ability to grow spirutally by not persuing the word of God a lot.

Andwhen people don't read the word of God a lot, I think it also affects their prayer life. Because when you don't understand something in the Bible, that's when one prays to the Holy Spirit and asks him to explain it to you. After all, that is Holy Spirit's job, to lead us into all truth. Not some truth, all truth. The Holy Spirit will speak directly into a man if you are listening and receive it. Not an audible voice, but a perceived voice nonetheless.



Right. And after Jesus was crucified he released all that were in Abrahams Bosom. Part of the new covenant is...absent from the body present with the Lord. So they didn't need Abrahams bosom after that, right?
That's how it seems to me.

Well if you is right then I shore am wrong.

Here are my thoughts on where Old Testament prophets / saints / martyrs may be.
Revelation 6: 5th seal
Waiting in Abraham’s bosom with a white robe from the visit Jesus made. At the resurrection they will be changed and the wrath will be carried out.

We share parts of it in any event.

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

There are 3 Heaven ages not 3 Heavens IMO, as I see scripture

I like to look at it like a different dimension , as such Heaven is all around us ,but we can't see it .Example

II Kings 6:16 "And he answered, "Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them."

II Kings 6:17 "And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see." And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."


There were vehicles of fire that this young man saw, and he had never seen such a thing in his life; and the mountain side was full of them. This servant of Elisha had no fear when he was allowed to see into the realm of God's protection. This was in a dimension that no man could see with his eyes of the flesh body, but when his spiritual eyes were opened, the hosts of heaven were everywhere. God was thee and ready to protect his prophets. There are people that can see spiritual things that God does not intend for others to see and understand.

​

We do have different views and that's alright. Yes, there are many Spiritual things that God shows us that others can not see or understand unless they have their Spiritual eyes and ears opened to receive those things from God.