Equal Rights for... Robots

[Mike]

We had this discussion in our Ethics Bible study today. Will robots and Artificial intelligence become so advance that they will mirror humans in many ways? Looking back at robots from films & TV decades ago, they were very primitive; made of nuts and bolts, no personality.

Can anyone see a day when they have intelligence to learn emotion, remorse, compassion? If they come to have the utter appearance of humans (synthetic skin) and develop emotions, would you think they would be deserving of human rights? Further yet, would they, if they came to desire what we have in our faith, be offered Life in Christ?

Grounded Christians would say "NO" because they were not given life by God. They were given it by man. They would have no spirit or soul.

But from a secular world view, I could see our secular society bending to the point that our law-makers would be presenting bills for "Equal Rights for Robots".

Do you see a day when Artificial Intelligence reaches the point what robots have strong emotion; even a desire to know God. Do you see the potential for a fight to give them rights equal to ours?

 

[Classik]

:shocked
Mike!!
You missed the important points...:
take them to the movies, play soccer with them in Camp Nou, fight them and sue them, go into wars with them, visit them when they are sick and administer drugs, mourn and bury them, memorial services for them ( oh God why could you...?), take them to grandma's place, lust after them, rape them and have us raped by them, marry them and produce offspring, vote for them for the presidency...
--
Aren't these some of the important points you missed?
---
Technology grows like mad...there are certain frequencies that are (for the mean time unattainable)...but with our dead zone active in our brains we shall be able to perform wonders.
these robots would be great. They can sense almost everything: they can kind of have vission, speak, pity you, compete with you etc...
They are not made by God. You said it right: they can't be christians - and do not need John 3:16 - though they can read etc
Robots rights? :dunnno Probably
----
but believe me, they remain fools - each is an insufferable bore...we can't compete with Jehovah - so they are not perfect (they'd be great)
--

 

[jasoncran]

god is done creating mike all that is was made by him or us making something from his premade stuff.

no other intellegence will be formed to the point that it will have a soul. for if so then christ must die to save that thing too. we made them in sin in sin they shall be used.

 

[Mike]

I know He will not have Created these potential AI "things". I wasn't implying that He will have. It was more a question about what secular society will impose on us when these become so close to humans, they are indistinguishable to the eye. We are created by God in His Image. AI robots are created by man. We know there is a big line between the two, but I could see non-believers coming to treat them as equal. It might sound off the wall, but I see the potential. An Amendment to the U.S. Constitution giving AI beings equal rights when they have the ability to seemingly think & reason like a human.

 

[Navigator]

I know He will not have Created these potential AI "things". I wasn't implying that He will have. It was more a question about what secular society will impose on us when these become so close to humans, they are indistinguishable to the eye. We are created by God in His Image. AI robots are created by man. We know there is a big line between the two, but I could see non-believers coming to treat them as equal. It might sound off the wall, but I see the potential. An Amendment to the U.S. Constitution giving AI beings equal rights when they have the ability to seemingly think & reason like a human.

It's possible, but in a VERY long time. It took us 1,850 years (well.. more) for us as a race to get rid of slavery (though it still exists in forms today) and 1,900 (or more) to even give women the right to vote. These are people who are ACTUALLY PEOPLE.

Not only do we have to create these robots, but they will likely "suffer" persecution by humans for centuries afterward before gaining these rights...and even then...it's not guaranteed they will.

 

[Pebbles]

I find it strange that you'd consider a mass of undifferentiated mass of cells a person where as you'd consider a hypothetical creature with emotional analouges Sentience and Sapience a thing unworthy of any respect.

If it was a sufficently sophisiticated creature with the ablity to reflect and hold self formed wishes I would regard it as a peer to me. And treat it with the respect I'd treat any other human.

Of course we are talking in hypotheticals AI hasn't really changed all that much since the 1980's certainly not in line with the advances in hardware and software techniques, as we don't really know what makes us self aware it's not possible to emulate it accurately in a system.

 

[theLords]

I think Apple (or Disney) will lead the way in AI, Mike :yes

[video=youtube;ZisWjdjs-gM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZisWjdjs-gM[/video]

Equal rights for Wall-e!

 

[Mike]

If it was a sufficently sophisiticated creature with the ablity to reflect and hold self formed wishes I would regard it as a peer to me. And treat it with the respect I'd treat any other human.

This kinda makes my point. Non-believers don't see a difference between humans and man-made "things". (I can't think of a pronoun to refer to these hypothetical AI robots.) With science increasing at an exponential rate, I guess I see the potential for AI that "learns to learn" closer in our future than others do. I've read where research into computers making moral decisions is a hot field. As I understand it, they're not really basing decisions on morality as much as they are making massive amount of calculations in a nano-second. Whatever the case, it seems AI could mimic human thought & reasoning at some point.

And you say you would treat these creations equally with humans. Interesting.

 

[Danus]

We had this discussion in our Ethics Bible study today. Will robots and Artificial intelligence become so advance that they will mirror humans in many ways? Looking back at robots from films & TV decades ago, they were very primitive; made of nuts and bolts, no personality.

Can anyone see a day when they have intelligence to learn emotion, remorse, compassion? If they come to have the utter appearance of humans (synthetic skin) and develop emotions, would you think they would be deserving of human rights? Further yet, would they, if they came to desire what we have in our faith, be offered Life in Christ?

Grounded Christians would say "NO" because they were not given life by God. They were given it by man. They would have no spirit or soul.

But from a secular world view, I could see our secular society bending to the point that our law-makers would be presenting bills for "Equal Rights for Robots".

Do you see a day when Artificial Intelligence reaches the point what robots have strong emotion; even a desire to know God. Do you see the potential for a fight to give them rights equal to ours?

Mike our church has already come out on this issue to the robot community.
While we are not denying robots access to the church, they can not hold positions of leadership. We feel that their lifestyle is beyond sinful and unacceptable to God. Also, we will not be endorsing robot marriage.
This has upset a large number of engineers, computer scientist and men over 30 living in their parents basements, but we are standing our ground on this issue.
However, they (robots) are allowed access to our church, to work at the church. Mow the grounds, clean, pass the plate, that sort of thing. Additionally they may seek a relationship with the lord if they want. We feel this is fair.

 

[Classik]

Thanks to Mike!
Maybe we all have plenty of time to live and witness it.
--
SOS...the building is on fire:help
A robot man and a human man are inside, who should die for the other?

 

[handy]

Mike our church has already come out on this issue to the robot community.
While we are not denying robots access to the church, they can not hold positions of leadership. We feel that their lifestyle is beyond sinful and unacceptable to God. Also, we will not be endorsing robot marriage.
This has upset a large number of engineers, computer scientist and men over 30 living in their parents basements, but we are standing our ground on this issue.
However, they (robots) are allowed access to our church, to work at the church. Mow the grounds, clean, pass the plate, that sort of thing. Additionally they may seek a relationship with the lord if they want. We feel this is fair.

: Doggone! I read this just as I took a drink and now I have to clean my keyboard! :toofunny

 

[handy]

OK, now that things are tidied back up here:

Pebble, I'd like to quote this:

I find it strange that you'd consider a mass of undifferentiated mass of cells a person where as you'd consider a hypothetical creature with emotional analouges Sentience and Sapience a thing unworthy of any respect.

Here is what I believe to be the fundamental issue: Unbelievers seem, in spite of all the knowledge we have now into the human genome, DNA, the intricacies of life at the cellular level, to be unable to view anything that doesn't walk and talk as "human". However, if it walks and talks, must be. Or if not "walk and talk" at least show signs of sentience and sapience, which is why so many who think it would be perfectly OK to abort one of two identical twins (not saying you believe this Pebbles, but some do) for the sake of convenience, would fight tooth and nail for animal rights.

With the insights into the human genome and DNA, we scientifically know that there is really no such thing at all as "undifferentiated mass of cells". That all cells have within them, even as soon as conception takes place, the codes that will cause it to become whatever it will be, part of a liver, a brain, what makes the eyes brown or blue, etc.

But, because that little miracle, that fertilized egg, the conceptus cannot yet express feelings or think...we deny it's humanity...something we wouldn't deny our dogs, cats, or even a robot.

 

[Vic C.]

LOL@Danus. That was priceless.

Mike,

What you are suggesting wouldn't be robots anymore' they'd be man-made cybernetic organisms. They would not have a soul or spirit in the religious sense. Sarah Conner called them Tin Man... made of metal with no "heart".

Do you see a day when Artificial Intelligence reaches the point what robots have strong emotion; even a desire to know God. Do you see the potential for a fight to give them rights equal to ours?

They wouldn't need equal rights because in reality, they just demand and take them by force.

I do believe they would show a curiosity about our beliefs of God and creation. This too was tackled in the Terminator TV series.

For years now, there has been R&D going on concerning the deployment of human engrams in the AI research. I've known about this for many years now and the research keeps expanding.

http://www.google.com/search?q=modu....,cf.osb&fp=5f7ee2f34e758d0e&biw=1182&bih=587

 

[jasoncran]

I find it strange that you'd consider a mass of undifferentiated mass of cells a person where as you'd consider a hypothetical creature with emotional analouges Sentience and Sapience a thing unworthy of any respect.

If it was a sufficently sophisiticated creature with the ablity to reflect and hold self formed wishes I would regard it as a peer to me. And treat it with the respect I'd treat any other human.

Of course we are talking in hypotheticals AI hasn't really changed all that much since the 1980's certainly not in line with the advances in hardware and software techniques, as we don't really know what makes us self aware it's not possible to emulate it accurately in a system.

and evil you forget i love all things cybernetic in nature in sci-fi from transformers to the pair of positronic powered twins on star trek and on the replacators and nanotech.

most of them were evil and didnt have much in emotion.

 

[Sparkey]

Would robots be allowed to join together into communities? Could they incorporate? If so, they'd have more rights than us mere humans. The path is paved already; all that remains is for "them" to place their feet upon it.

 

[stovebolts]

I was watching Fatal Attractions on the Animal Planet last night with my wife and son, and it's amazing how people project their emotions on animals that will kill you just because that's their nature.

But to answer your question... I don't think so. Only because they'll be like a used car. In the end, it's only worth so much. It's all about the money, cause people love money, and lots of it.

 

[Mike]

Would robots be allowed to join together into communities? Could they incorporate? If so, they'd have more rights than us mere humans. The path is paved already; all that remains is for "them" to place their feet upon it.

Sparrow, I honestly don't understand this. Could you expound upon it?

Thanks!

 

[Pebbles]

With the insights into the human genome and DNA, we scientifically know that there is really no such thing at all as "undifferentiated mass of cells". That all cells have within them, even as soon as conception takes place, the codes that will cause it to become whatever it will be, part of a liver, a brain, what makes the eyes brown or blue, etc.

But, because that little miracle, that fertilized egg, the conceptus cannot yet express feelings or think...we deny it's humanity...something we wouldn't deny our dogs, cats, or even a robot.

No Cells are Totipotent (Can become any human tissue Including placental tissues) upto 8 Divisions mark (Mordula developmental stage) and are fully pluripotent upto 100 or so divisions beyond that. (Blastocyst development stage) (Fate determined between Placenta and human tissue)

When you get to a mass of about 4000 cells you get Gastrulation where it becomes a Gastrula Where cells inside this mass become slightly more specialized and seperate into 3 layers.

Ectoderm (Cells from this area can become Nerves OR skin)
Mesoderm (Cells from here can become most Organs or Bone, Or muscle)
Endoderm (Cells from here will become Gut organs Stomach, intestines)

it's entirely possible to derail this specialisation process at any point for various goals.

The cells are organized by mechanisms as they become more specialized determined by their relative position in the mass. and changes in expression of Cadhearins whitch result in the cells sticking to similarly differentiated cells.


Humans ARE machines The biology that drives us and control us, is materialistic and mechanistic, No supernatural intervention is required to make us work.

What makes us INDIVIDUALS is our minds through the mechanism of our brain. Our processing and self-awareness, Those emotions and the ablitity to relate to one another through those emotions. without that we are just meat.

Animals clearly express certain amounts of emotion and self awareness depending on the species, usually not at the same level of sophistication as a human but still none the less. As such they should be entitled to a small degree of respect.

If it's the potency of a cell that your hung up on consider the following.

Teratomas A rare sort of cancer. (Somtimes emerging from ovarian cells) where these early pluripotent cells become cancerous they turn into crudely defined masses of Hair, Skin, Organs, Teeth eyes faces... ... Those are Tumors not children, Dispite them having a human genome human characteristics and the same potency as an egg.

 

[jasoncran]

gotta love naturalism.

after all when my grandpas had alzheimers(both sides ) they totally forget who they were for the most part.

so therefore those robots have more rights then them.

remember which is more efficient in science? a logical unbaised non tiring machine or you who tires and is biased and that can apply to any field

hmm sound like dune doesnt it?

 

[Pard]

Robots are not people nor do they have nor should they ever have rights.

Ask electronic and robotic professionals they will agree. Don't let the "philosophers" draw you into yet another crazy idea!