Essential vs Nonessential

[netchaplain]

Why would you be wanting to, say, quote large chunks of commentary from D A Carson, Leon Morris, R C H Lenski, William Hendriksen & Simon Kistemaker, and other commentators?

I suppose that would depend of the level of research and study one would desire, which for me usually involves more than just brief quotes.

 

[chessman]

Arndt & Gingrich, gives the meaning of parapiptw as 'fall away, commit apostasy'

Apostasy is a different Greek word altogether. It means to depart from a previous standing. The author of Hebrews could have used Apostasy if that's what he had meant. But he didn't. I understand that various people claim Heb 6:6's parapiptó means christian apostasy. Indeed that's your claim. I'm asking you to prove exegetically that's what it means via some reasoned explanation of the Text. Just exactly what phrase, word, or implication is there in this Text that leads your own exegesis to conclude it's talking about Christian apostasy?

We both agree that the "them" fell away from repentance. I mean, that's what the passage says. I never said they didn't fall away from their repentance. That's obvious. How does repentance mean to be Christ follower though, is what you need to explain.

For example, can you show another verse from the Bible of the Greek word used in Heb 6:6 for "fall away" (in any verb form) where it means to fall away from following Christ? Maybe it does mean christian apostasy somewhere else. I doubt it though.

What exactly is in the passage itself that leads you to your interpretion that those Hebrews who were once enlighted by the Holy Spirit were ever followers of Christ?

I gave my interpretation/exegesis line by line. You said it 'fell flat'. What exactly did I say about each line was flat?

 

[OzSpen]

Apostasy is a different Greek word altogether. It means to depart from a previous standing. The author of Hebrews could have used Apostasy if that's what he had meant. But he didn't. I understand that various people claim Heb 6:6's parapiptó means christian apostasy. Indeed that's your claim. I'm asking you to prove exegetically that's what it means via some reasoned explanation of the Text. Just exactly what phrase, word, or implication is there in this Text that leads your own exegesis to conclude it's talking about Christian apostasy?

We both agree that the "them" fell away from repentance. I mean, that's what the passage says. I never said they didn't fall away from their repentance. That's obvious. How does repentance mean to be Christ follower though, is what you need to explain.

For example, can you show another verse from the Bible of the Greek word used in Heb 6:6 for "fall away" (in any verb form) where it means to fall away from following Christ? Maybe it does mean christian apostasy somewhere else. I doubt it though.

What exactly is in the passage itself that leads you to your interpretion that those Hebrews who were once enlighted by the Holy Spirit were ever followers of Christ?

I gave my interpretation/exegesis line by line. You said it 'fell flat'. What exactly did I say about each line was flat?

Do you read and study NT Greek?

Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon (Zondervan, 1957:626), gives the meaning of parapiptw as 'fall away, commit apostasy'. There is another Greek word for apostasy, but parapiptw also means to 'commit apostasy'. That's according to the etymology of the word.

Bye,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I suppose that would depend of the level of research and study one would desire, which for me usually involves more than just brief quotes.

Same here! However, I have a significant number of hard copy exegetical commentaries in my personal library for both OT and NT. I don't depend on the Internet and public domain for many outstanding commentaries.

Oz

 

[eddif]

We done be into symbolism agin.
Romans 1:19-20 area

Ground:
Busted up rock
Weathered rock
Root hairs in crevices busting rock
Vegetable matter (root out of dry ground)
No lukewarm treatment (either freeze or hot spring the minerals)
Dung (all things work to good)
Nice deep loamy ground
Shallow thin dirt over rock

Rain:
Acid rain
Pleasant rain
Nitrogen rich rain
Early rain
Latter rain

Seed:
Seed coat treated to allow germination

Planters:
Good seed
Bad seed
Seasonal planters

Folks that water:
Just enough to cause growth
Flood waters that bring in dirt (later may add deeper soil)

Photosynthesis:
Sun is energy that allows growth (God gives growth)

Ya'll done got me to thinking.
Repentance busts stony hearts
The word adds vegetable matter (with enough soil debth)
The word made flesh (the fathers Son - light)

So much out there, and I have these #14 shade glasses on and my sight is so dim.
One day face to face.

Mississippi redneck jerk
eddif

 

[JLB]

The Text contradicts your statement. They both (both groups) did NOT drink in the rain. One group did drink in the rain, one group merely tasted it once.

4 For it is impossible concerning those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,...​

Thus, your contradictory statement made above about the "them" specifically spoken of verse 4-6, once again.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8


Once a person is enlightened, and has tasted the heavenly gift, and has become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and has tasted of the good word of God... if they fall away...

What's true of both groups:

They both were enlightened.
They both tasted of the heavenly gift.
They both were partakers of the Holy Spirit.
They both had tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come.

After receiving these things, one group produced evil things while the other group produced good things.

• The group who produced evil things... were burned.

• The group who produced good things... were blessed.

The parabolic reference sums up what was just said:

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:7-8

This is true of both groups: the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it...


JLB

 

[chessman]

What's true of both groups:

They both were enlightened.

True. One group was enlightened once and the other often.

Here let me show you:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

Group #1=those who were once enlightened.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it

Group #2 = those which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it ...

Quite simple really.

This is true of both groups: the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it...

You can repeat your error 1,000 times, color it blue, red or bold, and even call it "true" that will not make it true.

It is impossible for both groups to be enlightened often since the Text says so, remember?
One of us believes that truth, one of us does not.

 

[JLB]

True. One group was enlightened once and the other often.

Here let me show you:



Group #1=those who were once enlightened.



Group #2 = those which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it ...

Quite simple really.


You can repeat your error 1,000 times, color it blue, red or bold, and even call it "true" that will not make it true.

It is impossible for both groups to be enlightened often since the Text says so, remember?
One of us believes that truth, one of us does not.

those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come...

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.Hebrews 6:4-6

For those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, ...are those who fell away.

These who are partakers of the Holy Spirit, and fall away can not be renewed to repentance again.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:7-8

It is impossible for both groups to be enlightened often since the Text says so, remember?
One of us believes that truth, one of us does not.

The text does not say they were "enlightened often".

The scripture say's - the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it.

This refers to both groups.

The text says once a person has been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This does not say they have been enlightened once, but says once they have been enlightened.

Once a person has be enlightened, and is a partaker of the Holy Spirit... if they fall away, they can't be renewed to repentance.


JLB

 

[chessman]

The text does not say they were "enlightened often".

Nor does it say they were saved!

This does not say they have been enlightened once,

sure it does.
It's the same Greek word used here:

2 Corinthians 11:25 (LEB) Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I received a stoning. Three times I was shipwrecked. A day and a night I have spent in the deep water. ​

How many times was Paul stoned? Once! One time. It literally means one time.

Hebrews 6:4 (LEB) For it is impossible concerning those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and become sharers of the Holy Spirit, ​

How many times were these enlightened? Once! Or here:

Hebrews 9:26 (LEB) since it would have been necessary for him to suffer many times from the foundation of the world, but now he has appeared once at the end of the ages for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself. ​

You might try out learning something new just once. It's called Theology for a reason.

1 Peter 3:18 (LEB) For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, in order that he could bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, ​

All these examples use the same Greek word.

 

[JLB]

Nor does it say they were saved!

I guess you are now going to teach us that a person who has been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, refers to an unsaved person?

That would be the alternative.

sure it does.
It's the same Greek word used here:

2 Corinthians 11:25 (LEB) Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I received a stoning. Three times I was shipwrecked. A day and a night I have spent in the deep water. How many times was Paul stoned? Once! One time. It literally means one time.

Hebrews 6:4 (LEB) For it is impossible concerning those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and become sharers of the Holy Spirit,
How many times were these enlightened? Once! Or here:

Hebrews 9:26 (LEB) since it would have been necessary for him to suffer many times from the foundation of the world, but now he has appeared once at the end of the ages for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself.
You might try out learning something new just once. It's called Theology for a reason.

1 Peter 3:18 (LEB) For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, in order that he could bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,
All these examples use the same Greek word.

Once Strong's G530 - hapax

1. once, one time
2. once for all
   

• Once a person has been enlightened and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
• Once a person has been born again and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
• Once a person has been saved and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
• Once a person has repented and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
• Once a person has come to the Lord and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
• Once a person has turned to the Lord and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
• Once a person has surrendered to Christ and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

These are all ways to say the same thing.

How many times does a person need to believe, to receive the Holy Spirit?

How many times does a person need to be born again to receive the Holy Spirit?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Hebrew church was enlightened unto salvation, not just a mental, non-salvic knowledge of Christ:

" 32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.

38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

(Hebrews 10:32-39 NASB capitals in original)

The Hebrews being 'enlightened' most certainly does mean saved. No question about it. We can all read the plain words above for ourselves and know that beyond the shadow of any doubt. This being true, the author warns them what will happen to them if they stop believing. They will be lost with no opportunity given them to be brought back.

 

[chessman]

The Hebrews being 'enlightened' most certainly does mean saved. No question about it.

So, you assume enlightenment means salvation??? That seems odd and presumptive on your part.

Is it not true that there are those who have received enlightenment yet do not have faith?

Hebrews 10:39 (LEB) But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but among those who have faith to the preservation of our souls. ​

Yep.

Is it only the saved that receive enlightenment? Nope.

John 1:9 (LEB) The true light, who gives light to every person, was coming into the world. ​

 

[JLB]

So, you assume enlightenment means salvation??? That seems odd and presumptive on your part.

Is it not true that there are those who have received enlightenment yet do not have faith?

Hebrews 10:39 (LEB) But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but among those who have faith to the preservation of our souls. ​

Yep.

Is it only the saved that receive enlightenment? Nope.

John 1:9 (LEB) The true light, who gives light to every person, was coming into the world. ​

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39

Those who believe "present tense" to the saving of the soul.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe presently, no longer believe... because they have drawn back.



JLB

 

[Seabass]

It has been well said that “there should be unity in all things essential, liberality in all things nonessential, and charity in all things!” The first is everyone believing the same doctrine concerning the receiving of faith (salvation). The second is respectfully allowing the variance of understanding of beliefs between one another. The third is always exercising love to one another within the first two conditions.

Essential doctrines (ED) are those which Scripture teaches concerning the requirements of receiving salvation; nonessential doctrines (ND) are teachings that are not related to receiving salvation but to increasing the strength of faith in salvation, i.e. spiritual growth in our understanding of Scripture (an unceasing progression).

An example of ED which I believe to be most inclusive is Romans 10:9; “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

An example of ND is the issue concerning teachings that relate to the permanency or temporality of one’s salvation, e.g. what one believes concerning either conclusion has no relation to that of receiving salvation but rather that of growing in the faith of salvation.

Looking at the ED of Romans 10:9, I believe the phrase “confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord” means to admit in your communication (signing for the impaired) that He is the Savior (Christ - sole source of redemption -1John 2:22). “Believe in your heart” to me means to always accept as true. “That God has raised Him from the dead” is a twofold conclusion in that believing in His resurrection presumes the ED concerning His incarnation (1John 4:3; 2John 1:7).

In my opinion, those who communicate with respect and kindness are the only ones who will increase their understanding (regardless of their knowledge of Scripture) in the Word of God because it shows their intentions are not out of opposition to one another, but to learn “the Word of truth.” My reason for sharing this article is not only for attempting to be instructional but more importantly so that we will remember the primary reason for learning God’s truths, to “come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ” (Eph 4:13 NLT), which sole standard is love to one another (John 15:12). The more we prioritize love to others as our motive in everything, the greater will be our practical love for God, regardless of the zeal for love to Him (1John 4:20).


For Christ’s Sake (Rom 15:30; 1Co 4:10; 2Co 12:10; Eph 4:32)

What man (or men) get to decide for everyone else as to what is essential and what is not essential? No man can decide this for me, nor certainly no man can decide this for God for as far as God is concerned every word of His is important (Matthew 4:4),all His counsel is important (Acts 20:27) all His doctrine is important (2 John 1:10-11).

 

[netchaplain]

What man (or men) get to decide for everyone else as to what is essential and what is not essential? No man can decide this for me, nor certainly no man can decide this for God for as far as God is concerned every word of His is important (Matthew 4:4),all His counsel is important (Acts 20:27) all His doctrine is important (2 John 1:10-11).

HI SB, and thanks for your reply and input! True, only God decides what is essential for obtaining salvation, and what is not essential for obtaining salvation. For example, His Word declares it is essential to believe in Christ and His atonement for sin to be saved. But His Word does not declare it is essential to be saved by believing that faith and salvation are eternal, though they are.

 

[Seabass]

HI SB, and thanks for your reply and input! True, only God decides what is essential for obtaining salvation, and what is not essential for obtaining salvation. For example, His Word declares it is essential to believe in Christ and His atonement for sin to be saved. But His Word does not declare it is essential to be saved by believing that faith and salvation are eternal, though they are.

I agree that God determines what is important and He has declared all His word is important so there is no room for error, untruth.

My point is not limited to salvation but everything else including worship, marriage and divorce and many other doctrinal issues. Worship for example is also a salvation issue for if one does not worship as God has prescribed then their worship is in vain and that person cannot be saved in their vain worship. So how can anyone tell me that how one worships is a "non-essential" (and people have told me that) when it is essential to salvation?

 

[netchaplain]

I agree that God determines what is important and He has declared all His word is important so there is no room for error, untruth.

My point is not limited to salvation but everything else including worship, marriage and divorce and many other doctrinal issues. Worship for example is also a salvation issue for if one does not worship as God has prescribed then their worship is in vain and that person cannot be saved in their vain worship. So how can anyone tell me that how one worships is a "non-essential" (and people have told me that) when it is essential to salvation?

Good points, but in my understanding only faith in the Lord Jesus is essential for salvation and everything else is evidence of whether or not one may truly have faith, i.e. one who is truly saved will "both desire and do His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13), which includes all these things and can be evidence that God will ensure this to be so in all who are truly born again.

 

[JLB]

which includes all these things and can be evidence that God will ensure this to be so in all who are truly born again.

Interesting comment.

Could you please share the scripture for this statement.

The following scriptures seem to contradict your statement.

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9

This seems to place the responsibility of godly character and virtue including love, upon the believer and not God, as He has given to us all things that pertain to eternal life and godliness.

There are a couple more but first I would like to see what you have to say and the scripture you have that says...God will ensure this to be so in all who are truly born again.



JLB

 

[K2CHRIST]

Good points, but in my understanding only faith in the Lord Jesus is essential for salvation and everything else is evidence of whether or not one may truly have faith, i.e. one who is truly saved will "both desire and do His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13), which includes all these things and can be evidence that God will ensure this to be so in all who are truly born again.

Yes

Jesus told Martha that only one thing was truly necessary (Lk 10:42) and that was sitting and listing to Him like Mary was doing!! If we believe (have faith in Jesus Christ) then we are going to listen to Him. Of course He, being Lord of lords, is probably going to tell us to do this or that when we listen to Him, but it is the listening to Him and not even the good works (eg cleaning up around the house/church) that is important and the one thing needed. So the works we do are what He specifically tells us and are a direct result of the hearing Him by faith. So it is "only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. With Lord meaning the One who gave us the personal instructions which we heard. Jesus explain that His mother, and brothers are the ones that heard the word of God and did it. (Luke 8:21) True faith results in hearing Him, our Lord, and thus doing what He says, but it is the faith and not the doing that is essential.

 

[netchaplain]

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9

These are related to growth in Christ, not being saved. Once one is "cleansed" it is permanent, but this may not be minded (forgotten) as often as it should, due to lack of growth.

What we have been given in our rebirth ("all things godly and pertain to life"), God teaches us to learn to walk in them as we mature, which all believers will eventually learn to do, for in every believer "God works in you both to desire and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).