Essential vs Nonessential

[Jim Parker]

Jesus plainly teaches that goats and sheep (the unrighteous and the righteous) get separated on the basis of their works, yet most Protestants vehemently decry the notion that salvation will be doled out on the evidence of one's works....claiming that would be a gospel based on meritorious works, which it is not. That is still a faith based gospel.

Amen and amen.

It is for the Catholics because your faith in Christ IS your manifest works,

Faith is not a work, IMO. It appears to me to be a gift.
Faithfulness is demonstrated by good works.
To have faith without being faithful is a coin with only one side. (Have you ever seen one of those?)
And, JTLYK, I am not a "Catholic" (ie: Roman Catholic) I'm Orthodox.

 

[netchaplain]

yet most Protestants vehemently decry the notion that salvation will be doled out on the evidence of one's works....claiming that would be a gospel based on meritorious works, which it is not.

Do you possibly think you might be referring to works being used to determine, not our salvation but our rewards?

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you possibly think you might be referring to works being used to determine, not our salvation but our rewards?

No, I don't.
Faith without works is simply agreement.
The idea of salvation based on having faith alone without acting on that faith as Jesus specifically commanded us to do is contrary to the teaching of scripture.
I don't see any way of understanding the following other than our good works are necessary for eternal life.
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
And Jesus stated that He will base his judgment of salvation of condemnation on what people did or did not do at Mat 25:31-46.

Jesus also very pointedly asked: "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46 RSV) Obviously, that was an admonition to take action to put what He taught into action.

James, the bishop of the church at Jerusalem and the kinsman of the Lord specifically stated; "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 RSV) THat5 is a reiteration of what Jesus taught.

You have doubtless heard the old saw, "Talk's cheap; let me see some action." as well as the Biblical bromide, "A tree is know by it's fruit."

jim

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith is not a work, IMO. It appears to me to be a gift.

Ah, yes, that's the argument. Correction noted. Thank you.

And, JTLYK, I am not a "Catholic" (ie: Roman Catholic) I'm Orthodox.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance. I'm used to people making the distinction between Roman Catholic and Orthodox 'Catholic' when the difference is pointed out. So to me you are all Catholics. But I am aware of the divide between the two.

 

[Jim Parker]

So to me you are all Catholics.

And we all look the same too!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you possibly think you might be referring to works being used to determine, not our salvation but our rewards?

No, not for a second.
In the Matthew 25:31-46 NASB passage I cited, goats are sent to eternal damnation while the righteous enter into the kingdom. So we know he's not talking about rewards being based on our works. He's talking about salvation being granted on the basis of the evidence of justifying faith, which is love for Christ expressed in love for the brethren. Which is exactly what Paul said; the faith that loves is the faith that justifies.

"The only thing that counts (towards justification) is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV bold, underline, and parenthesis mine)

We can see that it's not true at all that faith doesn't have to love for it to be a justifying faith because that would be a works gospel, as many Protestants insist.

But just for clarification on "faith that secures salvation," I see it that faith only secures manifesting salvation, not securing salvation itself.

No, I am certain that it is through the vehicle of faith that we secure justification/salvation itself, not just the outward manifestation of our salvation and right standing with God:

"...we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." (Romans 5:1-2 NIV bold mine)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And we all look the same too!

Yep!

 

[netchaplain]

Faith without works is simply agreement.
The idea of salvation based on having faith alone without acting on that faith as Jesus specifically commanded us to do is contrary to the teaching of scripture.

When we receive salvation their are no works. They come later after learning how to walk in them, but works are only to confirm evidence of faith and never for favor or salvation, both of which are never again needed to obtain.

 

[Jim Parker]

works are only to confirm evidence of faith and never for favor or salvation

You may present it in any manner you wish.
The bottom line is that Jesus said absolutely nothing about faith in Mat 25:31-42. The righteous inherited the kingdom based on what they did and the condemned were sent to hell based on what they failed to do.

James 2:14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"
No. It cannot, because "... faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 2:17
Dead things do not produce life and certainly not eternal life.
Good works without faith will not save anyone and neither will faith without good works save anyone.

I don't understand why there is such an aversion to the teaching that, if a person calls himself a Christian, he is expected, by Jesus, to act like a Christian. And if he does not act like a Christian, Jesus will send him to hell with the rest of the faithless.

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The bottom line is that Jesus said absolutely nothing about faith in Mat 25:31-42.

if a person calls himself a Christian, he is expected, by Jesus, to act like a Christian. And if he does not act like a Christian, Jesus will send him to hell with the rest of the faithless.

But even as you seem to indicate, it is in fact a passage about faith. Even you see the implication of faith in the passage. What it is not is a passage saying works is earned by doing righteous work. Nor is it a passage that says that salvation can come through a faith that has no works attached.

 

[JLB]

I pointed to the obvious. Paul's statement was after salvation, present tense, "I am." 1 Tim. 1:15.

Yes Paul considered himself as chief of the sinners whom Christ came to save.

Not difficult.

You have tried to make Paul the apostle out to be a sinner, living a sinful life when he clearly was a man who was led by the Spirit.

Yet, another in a long string of scriptures that you have consistently misunderstood, and misapplied.

Paul considered himself to be the chief of the sinners whom Christ came to save.

Of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to save, I am at the top of the list.

This was a reference to his past life when he persecuted the Church.

For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1 Corinthians 15:9

When we are saved, we are no longer a sinner, but a saint.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:4-8



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't understand why there is such an aversion to the teaching that, if a person calls himself a Christian, he is expected, by Jesus, to act like a Christian.

Because many Protestants instantly hear that as a works gospel, that salvation is earned through works. The thinking being that if you have to have works attached to your faith to be saved that can only mean that those works earn your salvation for you, being oblivious to the fact that works are merely the expected and obligatory outcome of the faith that justifies all by itself, and which can, therefore, be used to measure the presence of the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB). And will in fact be used by Jesus to measure the presence of the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works.

 

[Jim Parker]

But even as you seem to indicate, it is in fact a passage about faith.

Yes!
Though I tend to view it as faith/faithfulness.

What it is not is a passage saying works is earned by doing righteous work.

Yes again!
We were created to do good works; it's our job. (Eph 2:10)
And if we don't do our job, we get "fired."f

Nor is it a passage that says that salvation can come through a faith that has no works attached.

And, one more time, yes!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes!
Though I tend to view it as faith/faithfulness.

I don't believe, for the purposes of this discussion, that 'faith', and 'faithfulness' are the same thing. We don't say we have 'faithfulness in the blood of Christ'. Rather we say we have 'faith in the blood of Christ'. Two entirely different things, the latter being the one that justifies.

Justification is secured through trusting in the blood of Jesus to forgive your sins (Romans 5:9 NASB). We are justified (made righteous) by having our sins wiped away, simply for the asking. You don't call trusting in the blood of Christ to forgive our sins 'faithfulness' in the blood of Christ. You call having trust in the blood of Christ to forgive our sins 'faith' in the blood of Christ. When we trust the blood for justification we are 'having faith'. When we do things in obedience to God we are being 'faithful' to do those things, not being faithful to the blood of Christ (that really doesn't make sense).

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't believe, for the purposes of this discussion, that 'faith', and 'faithfulness' are the same thing.

They are not the same thing. We have faith in Christ and we are faithful to obey His commands. One is about belief and the other about acting on that belief.

Justification is through trusting in the blood of Jesus to forgive your sins. We are justified (made righteous) by having our sins wiped away, simply for the asking.

Not according to scripture.
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

When we trust the blood for justification we are 'having faith'. When we do things in obedience to God we are not being faithful to do those things, not being faithful to the blood of Christ (that really doesn't make sense).

Naw...it doesn't.
We have faith in Christ. We believe] that he is who he said he is and that hes incarnation, death, resurrection, ascension and the sending of the Holy Spirit were effective in saving us.
We are faithful to do his commands.

The one who has faith in who Jesus is and in what he has done but is not faithful to do his commands is like the servant whose master came when he wasn't expecting him and cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 24:51)

Faith without faithfulness is a cloud without rain; it won't bring (the waters of) life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We were created to do good works; it's our job. (Eph 2:10)
And if we don't do our job, we get "fired."f

Yes, ultimately, we get fired for not having good works. But not for being 'not faithful', but because not having good works indicates the absence of faith in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. IOW, a lack of works shows a lack of belief in the Christ who justifies. This is illustrated in the story of the woman who wiped Jesus' feet with her tears:

"I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown." (Luke 7:47 NIV)

IOW, jusltification is evidenced by one's love for Jesus and the brethren. The absence of justification in Christ is evidenced by the lack of one's love (that is, good works). That's why justifying faith can be, and is, measured by works of love, not secured by works of love, as if the faithfulness to Christ produced by justification is the actual thing that secures that justification.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not according to scripture.
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Did you know that 'justification' means to, both, be made righteous in God's sight and to be shown to be righteous?

Paul is saying we are justified (made righteous) by faith in the blood, all by itself, apart from works--the blood of Christ, all by itself being able to make a person righteous before God. James, on the other hand, is saying a person is justified (shown to be righteous) by works--those works showing him to possess the righteousness that comes through forgiveness alone.

 

[OzSpen]

Neither is it a definitive description of normal worship in the early church. The Bible does not provide an accurate description of the form of worship practiced by the early church.
However, we know that the original church was Jewish and that their form of worship came from the forms of the synagogue and the Temple. There is no evidence that they simply abandoned the forms of worship to which they were accusto0med and adopted a form strikingly similar to the average Protestant, charismatic service of the 20th century.
Rather, by the beginning of the 2nd century, the following definitive description of normal worship is reported:
(I have added the numbers for the cause of clarity)

Justin Martyr: (AD 100-165) The First Apology of Justin
Chapter LXVII.—Weekly Worship of the Christians.
…… (1) And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and
(2) the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits;
(3) then, when the reader has ceased, the president1 verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
(4) Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended,
(5) bread and wine and water are brought, and the president1 in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and
(6) the people assent, saying Amen;
(7) and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, (the Eucharist) and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons………….

Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples,

(8) He (Jesus) taught them (the apostles & disciples) these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Justin described a gathering
(a) of the entire local church,
(b) at a place which would accommodate them,
(c) on Sunday.

He then described the process of the meeting which are easily identified as standard liturgical worship:
A. the Liturgy of the word
(1) The reading of the Gospels or Prophets
(2) The sermon
(3) The prayers of the people
B. The Liturgy of the Eucharist
(4) The consecration of the bread and wine (by the presider, AKA: "priest")
(5) The “great Amen”
(6) The people receive the Eucharist

The source of this form of liturgy: Justin stated that it was Jesus who taught this form of worship. Thus, Justin refuted the notion that the Mass was a later development.

What Justin describes is the basic format of the liturgy that is followed to this day in all Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Coptic and Assyrian Churches. It was the form of worship in common usage from Britain to India by the beginning of the 2nd century. For example, when Portuguese traders, who sailed around Africa, arrived in India in the 1400's, they were astonished to find a thriving Christian church which celebrated the liturgy according to the above form, and which was the fruit of the evangelism of the apostle Thomas who arrived there in 52AD.

jim

Jim,

You gained your information about liturgy from the early church fathers. I gained mine from the New Testament, 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV).

Oz

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jim,

You gained your information about liturgy from the early church fathers. I gained mine from the New Testament, 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV).

Oz

Amen. It's really that simple.
Everyone, without exception, should go with what the Bible says over and above even the earliest of church figures.

 

[JLB]

Yes, ultimately, we get fired for not having good works. But not for being 'not faithful', but because not having good works indicates the absence of faith in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. IOW, a lack of works shows a lack of belief in the Christ who justifies. This is illustrated in the story of the woman who wiped Jesus' feet with her tears:

"I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown." (Luke 7:47 NIV)

IOW, jusltification is evidenced by one's love for Jesus and the brethren. The absence of justification in Christ is evidenced by the lack of one's love (that is, good works). That's why justifying faith can be, and is, measured by works of love, not secured by works of love, as if the faithfulness to Christ produced by justification is the actual thing that secures that justification.

You've made some good points as always. :nod

James, on the other hand, is saying a person is justified (shown to be righteous) by works--those works showing him to possess the righteousness that comes through forgiveness alone.

In this example, It was Abraham's obedience to do what God said, that made his faith complete, as opposed to having a dead inactive faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:22-23


The scripture says it was by this [work of] obedience that Abraham was justified.

This can not be contested.

The only thing left would be to argue over what justification means, according to definition from bible dictionary's, which for all practical purpose's is man's commentary.


Does "justified" in this instance mean, "declared to be righteous", or "shown to be righteous", which could also be defined as "continued to be declared" righteous.


I guess my question would be: what is the difference in "justification", from the first time Abraham was justified through obedience, in Genesis 12, and when Abraham was justified through obedience in Genesis 22?

Everywhere I see the work of justification, I see obedience on the part of the one justified.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. Genesis 12:1-4


This obedience of faith, in Genesis 12, foreshadowed the call of the Gospel to repent; Turn to the Lord in obedience, by turning away from our old life.

Here Abraham was justified by obedience.

Likewise, in Genesis 22, the example James gave, Abraham was again justified by his obedience.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:22


JLB