Essential vs Nonessential

[Jethro Bodine]

The scripture says it was by this [work of] obedience that Abraham was justified.

This can not be contested.

Correct. It says what it says. No way to make that go away.
Here's the problem. If 'justified' is defined and used by James exactly as Paul defines and uses it then James directly and completely contradicts Paul. (A point which atheists and naysayers love to exploit and frustrate believers with). Here, I'll demonstrate:

"2For if Abraham was justified (made righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:" (Romans 4:2,6 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

"21Was not Abraham our father justified (made righteous) by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

It's impossible that both can be true. If they were both meant to mean 'made righteous' then the Bible is indeed a fallible, man-made book that we can discard as representing just another opinion of God and the supernatural. But we know better than that. Especially since it is a genuine fact that the Greek word for 'justified' really does have more than one definition. And when we take that into consideration it makes it more than just a matter of arguable opinion that Paul and James are not in contradiction and disagreement.

The only thing left would be to argue over what justification means, according to definition from bible dictionary's, which for all practical purpose's is man's commentary.

And thankfully, we don't have to argue over it. The Greek word for 'justification' honestly does have more than one definition. One of them is 'to render righteous', and another is 'to show to be righteous' (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV). And context shows us which definition Paul and James had in mind when they wrote their letters. Paul is talking about being made righteous by faith apart from works:

"...through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:19 NASB)

While James is talking about being shown to have that righteousness by what you do:

"...I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB bold mine)

 

[JLB]

Correct. It says what it says. No way to make that go away.
Here's the problem. If 'justified' is defined and used by James exactly as Paul defines and uses it then James directly and completely contradicts Paul. (A point which atheists and naysayers love to exploit and frustrate believers with). Here, I'll demonstrate:

"2For if Abraham was justified (made righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:" (Romans 4:2,6 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

"21Was not Abraham our father justified (made righteous) by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

It's impossible that both can be true. If they were both meant to mean 'made righteous' then the Bible is indeed a fallible, man-made book that we can discard as representing just another opinion of God and the supernatural. But we know better than that. Especially since it is a genuine fact that the Greek word for 'justified' really does have more than one definition. And when we take that into consideration it makes it more than just a matter of arguable opinion that Paul and James are not in contradiction and disagreement.

I agree, Paul and James are not in contradiction.

I'm hoping we can find some common ground, by examining what each other is saying.


Of course, two scriptures that "seemingly" state the opposite, must be further examined by context, and the point the author is making.


Romans was Paul's letter written to the Church in Rome, which was made up of Jews and Gentiles, and the issues that were taking place within that culturally diverse group, namely: Legalism and Lawlessness.

Paul had the challenge of bringing one group, out of the right hand ditch of legalism [keeping the law of Moses, in order to be saved], while at the same time, bringing the other group out of the left hand ditch lawlessness [becoming a slave again to sin], so that both groups would come into the unity of faith, walking done the middle of the path of life, not looking to the left hand or the right, in the balance of being led by the Spirit, walking in the righteousness of faith.

Paul using language that both groups understood, as well as legal principles they both could relate to, which at times seemed to contradict each other, which is understandable since legalism and lawlessness are two opposites, and the counterbalance of those two concepts, tends to lean towards the other, while at the same time focusing on the common ground of faith in Christ Jesus.

Paul touches on this at the end of Romans 3, and sets the tone for what we read in Romans 4.

Paul desires for both the Gentile and Jewish Christians to see the common ground of faith: Obedience

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:27-31

31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31 NIV

The law of Moses and the law of faith, both have the same counterbalance; they uphold each other in the "weight" of balance.

UPHOLD; ESTABLISH Strong's G2476 - histēmi

1. to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
   
   1. to bid to stand by, [set up]
      
      1. in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
      2. to place
         
   2. to make firm, fix establish
      
      1. to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
      2. to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
      3. to establish a thing, cause it to stand
         1. to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
            
   3. to set or place in a balance
      1. to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
         
2. to stand
   1. to stand by or near
      1. to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
         1. of the foundation of a building
   2. to stand
      1. continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
      2. to be of a steadfast mind
      3. of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver

The common balance of weight, between the law of Moses and Faith, is obedience.

Paul is wanting the Jew's, who still desire to obey the law, to see that the obedience of faith, the obedience that Abraham walked in, is just as pertinent, or carries the same weight as obeying the law of Moses.

Romans 4 is contrasting the works of law of Moses, with faith. Faith that both Gentiles and Jews [Abraham] walked and were deemed right with God.

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say?“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”


9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.


13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; Romans 4:1-17

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, by the work of obedience, and was justified in Genesis 22, by the work of obedience.

The common foundation of righteousness, faith, justification,and love, as well as the law is obedience.

To be declared righteous, or to continue to be declared righteous requires obedience.

The Point:

• Being declared righteous by faith in Jesus Christ, requires obeying the Gospel; Confessing Jesus as Lord.

• To continue to be declared righteous by faith in Jesus Christ requires [continuing to obey the Gospel] by confessing Jesus as Lord, even while being tested with death as a martyr.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes Paul considered himself as chief of the sinners whom Christ came to save.

Not difficult.

You have tried to make Paul the apostle out to be a sinner, living a sinful life when he clearly was a man who was led by the Spirit.

I don't think there is any question about "man" being sinners. This is a very essential part of understanding the Gospel. And Paul lays that ground work very solidly.

Yes, we are sinners, not one whit better than any other sinner. Romans 3:9.

Yet, another in a long string of scriptures that you have consistently misunderstood, and misapplied.

Paul considered himself to be the chief of the sinners whom Christ came to save.

Of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to save, I am at the top of the list.

This was a reference to his past life when he persecuted the Church.

I read "I am" in 1 Tim. 1:15. You read "I used to be." That's not what Paul wrote.

For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1 Corinthians 15:9

When we are saved, we are no longer a sinner, but a saint.

I have no issues with being a sinner, saved by Grace. Grace is "unmerited" favor.

We often contemplate Grace.

We never contemplate our "unmerited" condition. And most frequently, deny this.

 

[JLB]

I don't think there is any question about "man" being sinners. This is a very essential part of understanding the Gospel. And Paul lays that ground work very solidly.

Yes, we are sinners, not one whit better than any other sinner. Romans 3:9.



I read "I am" in 1 Tim. 1:15. You read "I used to be." That's not what Paul wrote.



I have no issues with being a sinner, saved by Grace. Grace is "unmerited" favor.

We often contemplate Grace.

We never contemplate our "unmerited" condition. And most frequently, deny this.

Here is what Romans 3:9 says with context.

7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. Romans 3:7-9

JLB

 

[smaller]

Here is what Romans 3:9 says with context.

7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. Romans 3:7-9

JLB

I will remain with the essential and necessary understanding that the Grace of God in Christ is received from the seat of being unmerited on our part.

There is no exchange that we can give or ever had in our power to give for His Eternal Grace and Mercy expressed in Christ.

People who try to drive hard bargains will sooner or later find they never had anything worthy to give Him for His Eternal Things, freely given.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

[JLB]

I will remain with the essential and necessary understanding that the Grace of God in Christ is received from the seat of being unmerited on our part.

There is no exchange that we can give or ever had in our power to give for His Eternal Grace and Mercy expressed in Christ.

People who try to drive hard bargains will sooner or later find they never had anything worthy to give Him for His Eternal Things, freely given.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Not one thing here in this post addresses the obvious truth of my point.

7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.Romans 3:7-9


Paul plainly rejects the notion of being judged as a sinner.


JLB

 

[smaller]

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.Romans 3:7-9

Paul plainly rejects the notion of being judged as a sinner.
JLB

I really have no idea how you came to that conclusion, yet alone by citing that scripture set when it says the exact opposite conclusion.

Sin dwells in the flesh. There is no way to avoid this conclusion and that means everyone is a sinner. Romans 7:17-21.

I'm only surprised by people who think they can make themselves sinless, with sin dwelling in their flesh and the likewise clear fact that evil is present with us.

The state of all natural men, regardless of their/our beliefs is quite clear and not changing for anyone who lives in flesh with the sole exception of God Himself in flesh.

1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made -

We have our first states above, all of us, are IN the red.

Any teaching that Paul or man in general are not sinners isn't even christian imho.

1 Timothy 1:
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[eddif]

Romans 7:25 KJV
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The works of man are temporal.

The works of Christ are eternal.

When I do the works it is law related
When he did the work of the cross I accept - it is grace.

Which part a person is talking about is to be understood.

Essential:
All things that I have commanded you.
Heart - what we do
Mind - what we believe
Temporal
Eternal

Of course Mississippi folks are not learned.
eddif

 

[JLB]

Sin dwells in the flesh. There is no way to avoid this conclusion and that means everyone is a sinner. Romans 7:17-21.

[edited, staff]

Those who walk according to the sinful desires of the flesh are sinners.

Those who walk according to the Spirit are not sinners.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:4-8

Those who practice righteousness are righteous.

Those who practice the works of the flesh are sinners and will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[smaller]

[edited, staff]

Those who walk according to the sinful desires of the flesh are sinners.

Those who walk according to the Spirit are not sinners.

I don't think anyone escapes the conclusion of being a sinner nor do I think scripture presents any person other than God in Christ Himself in the flesh as being 'sinless.'

There was only One sinless Lamb and we are not that One.

The recipient of Gods unmerited Grace and Mercy obtains these measures by faith precisely because we are sinners. More than ample discourse of scripture showing this to be a fact:

Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Whatever Divine Glory we have or will have, can only come from God who has it to give, by faith in Christ. No man can force God to give him anything.

 

[JLB]

I don't think anyone escapes the conclusion of being a sinner nor do I think scripture presents any person other than God in Christ Himself in the flesh as being 'sinless.'

What sin remains in a person who has had his sins taken away?

For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:27

And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5

Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

What point are you trying to make, here with these scriptures?

All have certainly sinned.

Jesus came to take away our sin.

Whatever Divine Glory we have or will have, can only come from God who has it to give, by faith in Christ. No man can force God to give him anything.

Force God to give us something???

I've never seen an indication on this Forum of anyone saying any such thing.

Why would you say this?



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

What sin remains in a person who has had his sins taken away?

For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:27

And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5

What point are you trying to make, here with these scriptures?

All have certainly sinned.

Jesus came to take away our sin.

Force God to give us something???

I've never seen an indication on this Forum of anyone saying any such thing.

Why would you say this?

JLB

Have you ever sinned since you were born again?

 

[smaller]

What sin remains in a person who has had his sins taken away?

IF Paul had his sin taken away, why then does he point out sin was in his flesh, TWICE for emphasis, in Romans 7:17-20, or that "evil" was present with him? Romans 7:21, or that warring was in his members, Romans 7:23, all leading him to recognize his "wretched man" condition in Romans 7:24, in a body of death? Paul realized beyond any doubt that God in Christ condemns sin, and that he has sin, beyond any questions. Romans 8:3.

For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:27
And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5

The "taking away" of sins transpires at one of 2 points. First, by actually dying. Romans 6:7, believers are no longer IN a dead because of sin body. They go to be with our Lord. Second, those who believers who are still alive in these "dead" because of sin bodies, upon the wrap up of this wicked age will be "redeemed" into a new body. Romans 8:23, 1 Cor. 15:42-47, Phil. 3:21. There is only ONE BODY raised and it is HIS, with it's "respective members" as they are added, and pass on, with a summation of this process, at the end.

It's only unfortunate that people think they can make a dead body, because of sin, suddenly perform sinlessness when in fact it's dead because of sin and that conclusion isn't changing no matter how well anybody's body performs. Romans 8:10 is a fixed matter for the body and that determination isn't changing for any flesh. This condition also makes the flesh contrary to and against the Spirit, again, no matter how much the flesh tries to think otherwise. Gal. 5:17 is also a fixed matter for all flesh of mankind.

What point are you trying to make, here with these scriptures?

All have certainly sinned.

No one stopped being a sinner to begin with. No one makes themselves sinless. To even make such a claim is to claim to make their own body the SAME AS Jesus, The Perfect Lamb of God in FLESH, and this simply does not and can not happen. Our body goes directly to our respective crosses, as DEAD because of the presence of sin therein, and from there will eventually be a pile of dust, just as God has said and slated from the beginning. Gen. 3:19.

It was MADE by God to be disposed of. 1 Cor. 15:42-47. There is a first man who is guaranteed to die and the body we inhabit currently is GONE, permanently, good riddance to it.

By faith in Christ we anticipate what is to come, Phil. 3:21 when the VILE body is no more, as a collective of believers, by the Power of Christ, Alone.

This seems relatively simple and basic Christian understanding. Most of which if not all, I would term "essential" understandings.

 

[JLB]

Have you ever sinned since you were born again?

Of course.

Thank God, we can confess our sins to Him, and be cleansed.

I learned, however to keep myself from being in the wrong place, and around the wrong people, who were doing the wrong things.

I had to learn to be set apart, and to pray and worship God, and be filled with His light and Spirit, as well as to keep my mind on things above: to meditate on His word, and keep my mind stayed on Him... things that are not really practiced in Church these days.

This is something that I believe must be practiced, in order to walk in a way to fulfill the desires of the Spirit within.

By His grace, over the years, I have learned to keep myself, and do the things.

However, smaller believes that every Christian has Satan dwelling in their flesh, and can not help but to live a sinful life, because it is Satan in each person's flesh doing the sinning, and on the Day of Judgement, the person will go to heaven and Satan will be punished for doing the sinning in each person.

This theory comes from 2 Corinthians 12:7

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7

He takes the "non literal" expression, "thorn in the flesh" [ An Idiom for source of frustration or irritation] and combines it with the literal phrase, "messenger of Satan to buffet me" to come up with the idea that Paul had a messenger of Satan dwelling in his flesh.

Furthermore, he teaches that all Christians have Satan dwelling in their flesh.

He also teaches that Paul lived a sinful life from this experience, and was the chief of all sinners as an Apostle of the Lord, even though He taught that those who practiced the works of the flesh, would not inherit the kingdom of God.

Even though He taught:

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

• 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

• 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

He claims Paul lived as the chief of all sinners, while teaching the Church to depart from Iniquity, based on this scripture:

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
1 Timothy 1:15



JLB

 

[JLB]

IF Paul had his sin taken away, when then does he point out sin was in his flesh? Romans 7:17-20, or that "evil" was present with him? Romans 7:21, or that warring was in his members, Romans 7:23, all leading him to recognize his "wretched man" condition in Romans 7:24, in a body of death? Paul realized beyond any doubt that God in Christ condemns sin, and that he has sin, beyond any questions. Romans 8:3.

The law of sin, is not Satan.

Paul said the law of sin which was in my members, and warring against the law of my mind.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:21-25

The answer is to walk according to the Spirit within, and not according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

and again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

and again

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


JLB

 

[smaller]

The law of sin, is not Satan.

There is zero question that Satan commits the sin of theft of Word, in mankind:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

The entire world of unbelievers has a captor/captive standing because of Satan. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

It is quite pointless not to recognize this. This is what we labor in Christ for, to DIVIDE these parties.

The answer is to walk according to the Spirit within, and not according to the flesh.

No one becomes sinless in the flesh by "walking in the Spirit." The flesh is diametrically opposed and against the Spirit, and vice versa, Gal. 5:17. No matter how we walk, we walk identically to how Paul walked, with "evil present" with him. Romans 7:21. Hebrews 10:22 shows identically. Evil present isn't going to obey or become sinless.

We are provided grounds of disassociation, but NOT eradication. And if we DON'T disassociation, we can very easily be again, enslaved or deceived, or the worst state, become hypocrites, thinking we are better sinners when we are no better in this regard to any sinner. Romans 3:9, Luke 18:11. When any person goes down hypocrisy road, they are guaranteed to slide, faster and faster into CONDEMNATION of others. That is exactly what happens to hypocrites. They think they are better, just as the religious liar in Luke 18:11.

God could give a whiff about such prayers or statements, because they are blatantly dishonest on the face of such claims, even so much so that the common unbelievers can smell it a mile away.

 

[JLB]

It's only unfortunate that people think they can make a dead body, because of sin, suddenly perform sinlessness when in fact it's dead because of sin and that conclusion isn't changing no matter how well anybody's body performs.

Crucifying the flesh, and presenting the members of your body as an instrument of righteousness is exactly that, practicing righteous deeds with a "dead body wrapped up in sin".

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14


Sorry smaller, Paul taught us to do exactly the opposite of what your teaching.

You teach people they have no authority or victory to live and practice righteousness, but rather you teach that the Apostle Paul lived as the worst of all sinners while at the same time teaching the Church to walk in the Spirit, and to depart from iniquity, and to crucify the flesh.

This is not biblical.

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19

and again

• 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

• 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

Paul warned of the eternal consequences of practicing the works of the flesh.

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB

 

[JLB]

There is zero question that Satan commits the sin of theft of Word, in mankind:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

The entire world of unbelievers has a captor/captive standing because of Satan. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

It is quite pointless not to recognize this. This is what we labor in Christ for, to DIVIDE these parties.

Satan owns those who do not belong to Christ.

We all know this.

Those who are Christ's have victory over Satan.

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 1:18


JLB

 

[JLB]

No one becomes sinless in the flesh by "walking in the Spirit." The flesh is diametrically opposed and against the Spirit, and vice versa, Gal. 5:17. No matter how we walk, we walk identically to how Paul walked, with "evil present" with him. Romans 7:21. Hebrews 10:22 shows identically. Evil present isn't going to obey or become sinless.

We are provided grounds of disassociation, but NOT eradication. And if we DON'T disassociation, we can very easily be again, enslaved or deceived, or the worst state, become hypocrites, thinking we are better sinners when we are no better in this regard to any sinner. Romans 3:9, Luke 18:11. When any person goes down hypocrisy road, they are guaranteed to slide, faster and faster into CONDEMNATION of others. That is exactly what happens to hypocrites. They think they are better, just as the religious liar in Luke 18:11.

God could give a whiff about such prayers or statements, because they are blatantly dishonest on the face of such claims, even so much so that the common unbelievers can smell it a mile away.

We have victory over sin and the devil, and the corruption of the world, for we have been empowered by the Spirit, and have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:2-4


We have victory to walk in the Spirit, so that we don't fulfill the lustful desires of the flesh.



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Of course.

Thank God, we can confess our sins to Him, and be cleansed.

I learned, however to keep myself from being in the wrong place, and around the wrong people, who were doing the wrong things.

I had to learn to be set apart, and to pray and worship God, and be filled with His light and Spirit, as well as to keep my mind on things above: to meditate on His word, and keep my mind stayed on Him... things that are not really practiced in Church these days.

This is something that I believe must be practiced, in order to walk in a way to fulfill the desires of the Spirit within as 1 John 4:4 (NIV) affirms: 'You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world'. It would be an abomination that Jesus would live in the believer at the same time as the devil would.

The reason I sin after being born again is that my sin nature has not been eradicated, as

By His grace, over the years, I have learned to keep myself, and do the things.

However, smaller believes that every Christian has Satan dwelling in their flesh, and can not help but to live a sinful life, because it is Satan in each person's flesh doing the sinning, and on the Day of Judgement, the person will go to heaven and Satan will be punished for doing the sinning in each person.

This theory comes from 2 Corinthians 12:7

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7

He takes the "non literal" expression, "thorn in the flesh" [ An Idiom for source of frustration or irritation] and combines it with the literal phrase, "messenger of Satan to buffet me" to come up with the idea that Paul had a messenger of Satan dwelling in his flesh.

Furthermore, he teaches that all Christians have Satan dwelling in their flesh.

He also teaches that Paul lived a sinful life from this experience, and was the chief of all sinners as an Apostle of the Lord, even though He taught that those who practiced the works of the flesh, would not inherit the kingdom of God.

Even though He taught:

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

• 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

• 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

He claims Paul lived as the chief of all sinners, while teaching the Church to depart from Iniquity, based on this scripture:

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
1 Timothy 1:15

JLB

JLB,

Thank you for explaining your position. I, like you, do not believe the Bible teaches that Christians sin because of Satan living in their flesh. The one who lives in me is Jesus Christ by his Spirit (1 John 4:4 NIV).

Romans 7:19-23 (NIV) confirms that the Christian still battles against sin because of the sinful nature within, not because of Satan living in the believer's flesh.

Oz