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Eternal damnation

You talk about fear and unbelief you told Willie your scared, scared of what? Its like this..

II Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

tob
 
chessman said:
Quick, related, question for you. Do you think that demons and/or even Satan can manifest themselves in human form on Earth at certain times?
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We know that angels appeared to people in the OT in the context that they appeared to be men. Further, the writer of Hebrews even tells us that we may have ministed to "angels unawares". Heb 13:2

Or do they always have to present themselves through the possession of humans? Such as seems to be the case during Satan’s dialogue with Eve or his tempting of Jesus in the wilderness, etc.
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They have presented themselves in human form.

I agree. I mean that’s what the text of John’s gospel, in fact, tells us. I’m sure John knew that as well. Not sure how that demonstrates that John wasn’t describing The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet to us as Satan and his demons, however.
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Rev 12:9 calls satan a "dragon". In ch 13, the beast is given authority by the dragon, thus showing that they are different.

The false prophet is called "another beast" in 13:11, which "spoke like a dragon".

I've never heard of any scholar claiming that the 2 beasts were demons.

It’s a wrong understanding (in my opinion) of Revelation’s The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet, to understand John’s Beast and False Prophet as humans that are demon possessed. That’s what the problem is for me. Other than that, I don’t really give a rip. In fact, I don't even care if I'm proven wrong about this.
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Well, if you don't care, neither do I. But it seems you see the dragon, beast and false prophet of Revelation as somehow different than "John's beast and false prophet". Huh? John wrote Revelation, so why would they be different?

Let’s just go with your assumption for a second; that is that The Beast and The False Prophet are demon possessed humans and look at some of the conflicts (I assume you don't think The Dragon is also a demon possessed human):
1) Again, John is saying that he visioned three unclean spirits coming out of the mouths Satan and his demons "For they ARE the spirits of demons"). So that’s conflict #1.
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There is no conflict. What comes out of the mouth of the 2 beasts are "unclean spirits", or demons. That demonstrates that the 2 beasts are demon possessed.

2) Can demon possessed humans cast out demons from themselves like spitting frogs out of their mouths to go and do signs and wonders in the Earth? I see no evidence of that capability and all kinds of problems with it.
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I don't know why you think that these demon possessed humans did cast out demons from themselves. The Bible sure doesn't say that either beast "cast out" from their mouth unclean spirits. What John was describing is the fact that these unclean spirits are speaking through the beasts. That's what the reference to the "mouth" is about. No real mystery.

3) There’s another basic conflict that I previously presented, that again no one has provided any counter argument to. It is my understanding that it’s a biblical foundational fact that ALL humans (not just all of them but two of them) must be judged in front of Christ (Heb 9:27, etc.). Agreed?
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Sure. So, what does this have to do with any 'conflict' in Rev?? I'm not seeing any.

Yet, on a human possessed view (your view), neither The Beast nor The False Prophet die nor are they judged in front of Christ (as your argument goes on to conclude). I see that as a problem, Biblically speaking.
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I'd say that Rev 19:10 covers any problem. They are cast directly into the lake of fire. That's their judgment. I see absolutely no problem with God casting living human beings (just 2 of em) into the lake of fire. Why bother putting them in front of the GWT judgment? It's quite obvious of what they've done.

Do you have any reasons for thinking they (The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet) are humans possessed by demons versus Satan and his angels?
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Because I've never heard any scholar claim that either beast was a demon. Further, the antichrist (beast #1) becomes the first world leader.

Other than the point I agree with you on; that humans can be possessed by demons? Also, why do you think John says the frogs are the unclean spirits of demons (visioned by the coming out of the mouths of demons) if he thought they were the unclean spirits coming out of human’s mouths?
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To indicate that the 2 beasts were demon possessed. And the reference to the "mouth" simply indicates that these demon possessed humans were spewing demonic ideas.

Okay, but we’re talking specifically about John’s Dragon, Beast and False Prophet. Or at least I am.
You’ve presented no counter argument for these two being humans possessed by demons as your post claimed was a 1.a. “fact”. You seem to be assuming those two (The Beast and The False Prophet) are two humans in your 1.a. posting when really there’s a lot of evidence against that view. I’m not arguing that humans cannot be possessed by demons. The question is, however, what did John mean by The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet?
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We clearly know that by 'dragon', John was describing satan himself. Ch 12. Further, what clearly stated verse says that either beast IS a demon? What the verses do say is that demons come out of their mouths.

Maybe you believe that demons are demon possessed? :hysterical Sorry, just too funny not to note.

Another quick question; Do you think John’s Dragon of Rev 16:14 also represents a demon possessed human? Or rather, do you think John 12:9 is John telling us that The Dragon is none other than the devil, Satan, himself? It seems quite obvious that The Dragon is Satan just as obvious as The Beast and The False Prophet are his angels.
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I've always thought that the 'dragon' was satan himself.

Or do you mean other reasons like 4, 5, ... I have others (yet they’re a little more complicated and less straight forward than these three, admittedly), but if people taking the opposing view (The Dragon, The Beast and/or The False Prophet of John’s vision are demon possessed humans) cannot really provide good counter arguments for these three reasons, then I don’t see the point of wasting any more time on it.
Plus, I’ve never really seen any sort of good argument why they are to be understood as humans possessed by demons (other than some people think they are).
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I still don't understand why you think the 2 beasts are demons. :chin

Sometimes certain people are just so set in their ways of thinking that no amount of logical argumentation based on Biblical Scriptures that oppose their view is going to change their minds on any particular subject. In a way, I admire that trait and in a way it seems stubborn.
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I've still not seen anything that convinces me that either beast is a demon themself.
 
turnorburn said:
You talk about fear and unbelief you told Willie your scared, scared of what? Its like this..

II Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

tob
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My former beliefs scare me tob, it caused untold pain and sickness I may never fully recover from. Of course the thought of going back to Christianity is scary to me.
 
TimothyW said:
I actually do like facts. I don't know know why you would think that I don't.
You asked me to explain what the word "perish" means. "Perish" means to die. To no longer be alive. Perish also means to rot, as in "these tomatoes have perished", but that is not the context here. When a person perishes, they die. They do not remain alive and conscious after they have perished.
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OK, so you ignored the Strong's lexicon of the Hebrew word for 'perish' in Psa 37:10. I guess there's nothing else to talk about. I surely means more than just "to die" or "to rot". And I provided all that Strong's said about the word.

I don't know what you mean by the "Luke verses which reference the lake of fire which says where their worm never dies". Is this a typo?
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This might explain a lot. I meant Mark 9:44,46,48 in the NASB.

I know of a passage in Mark that says "where the worm dieth not". Mark 9:48. Did you know that the same wording occurs in Isaiah 66:24?
Here is the passage:
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Notice that this speaks of dead bodies, not eternally living dead people.
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That context is clearly not about eternity in the lake of fire.

[Reference to deleted comments]
I know that I am not going to convince you to change your mind, and accept that the wages of sin is death and not eternal conscious torment.
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Rom 6:23 isn't about eternal destination. :)

I know that you are too invested in your doctrine to exchange it for any other doctrine.
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[ToS 2.4]

It is my hope that anyone else who reads this thread will see the truth of what I am saying, even if you are not convinced.
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I think all posters have that hope.
 
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poetofparables said:
My former beliefs scare me tob, it caused untold pain and sickness I may never fully recover from. Of course the thought of going back to Christianity is scary to me.
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Just forget the past whatever you had wasn't Jesus Christ, if it had been you would have had this..

II Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

tob
 
TimothyW said:
"eternal damnation" isn't anywhere to be found in God's word.
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Yep.

But the fact that those who reject the Son of God will perish IS found in God's word, in John 3:16 among other places.
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We also know that all humans who do not have eternal life will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). And we know that is where the 2 beasts and the dragon (satan) will be day and night forever and ever. Do you have any verses that state that humans won't be there night and day forever and ever?
 
Well, I just got back from doing errands and as I was driving, I had a total revelation. Someone (I think Tim) mentioned that the bible doesn't say that un-believers are separated from God in eternity.

In the parable with the Rich man and Lazarus, the Rich man begged for water to be put on his tongue........Abraham told him that there is a great chasm fixed between where the Rich man is and Lazarus.

Who has the water? God. Revelation 22:17 "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."

There was "no water" where the Rich man was.

Anything living needs water to live......The Rich man was aware, but he was dead.
 
turnorburn said:
Just forget the past whatever you had wasn't Jesus Christ, if it had been you would have had this..

II Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

tob
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Fear is not caused by a spirit and neither is love.
 
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