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Eternal damnation

poetofparables said:
Why is eternal suffering necessary.
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A lot of people are questioning the traditional view of hell.
The traditional view is that hell consists of eternal conscious torment. When I read the Bible, I do not see adequate proof of eternal conscience torment (ECT). I see passages like John 3:16 that say that those who reject God will perish. It doesn't say that those who reject the Son of God will have eternal life in hell being tormented. I see passages like Matthew 7:13 which talk about destruction. Jesus didn't say that the wide gate lead to life in hell being tormented forever, he said that it leads to destruction. Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death. Paul didn't say that the wages of sin is ECT in Hell. Throughout the Bible, the language used to describe the fate of the wicked is destruction, death, perishing, and so on. Taking the whole Bible into account, the evidence is that the wicked are completely destroyed, and not that they also receive eternal life in order to be eternally tormented.

Now, everytime this comes up, people get up in arms about it. People get angry when their view of hell is questioned. I am going to ask politely to everyone here, let's have a civil discussion about this. No insults to anyone.
 
TimothyW said:
A lot of people are questioning the traditional view of hell.
The traditional view is that hell consists of eternal conscious torment. When I read the Bible, I do not see adequate proof of eternal conscience torment (ECT). I see passages like John 3:16 that say that those who reject God will perish. It doesn't say that those who reject the Son of God will have eternal life in hell being tormented. I see passages like Matthew 7:13 which talk about destruction. Jesus didn't say that the wide gate lead to life in hell being tormented forever, he said that it leads to destruction. Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death. Paul didn't say that the wages of sin is ECT in Hell. Throughout the Bible, the language used to describe the fate of the wicked is destruction, death, perishing, and so on. Taking the whole Bible into account, the evidence is that the wicked are completely destroyed, and not that they also receive eternal life in order to be eternally tormented.

Now, everytime this comes up, people get up in arms about it. People get angry when their view of hell is questioned. I am going to ask politely to everyone here, let's have a civil discussion about this. No insults to anyone.
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I used to wonder why some christians would prefer to believe in eternal torment if there was a better alternative view in the bible.
 
Eugene said:
With disease fire purifies, and this is just a thought that sin is eradicated in the same manner when not forgiven. :shrug.
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I used to imagine as hell as method that eradicates sin rather than a place. Such as bad sectors on a hard drive that need to be isolated and reformatted.
 
poetofparables said:
Why is it necessary (That it must exist)
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Right or wrong, here's how I see it. God is absolute perfection. Because God is absolute perfection, sin cannot exist in His presence any more than matter and anti-matter can coexist in the same space. We are all born with a sin nature and therefore we cannot enter into heaven. Being able to enter into heaven is not about getting permission or earning that right. It's about "Being perfect therefore, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48 NKJV) We are not perfect therefore we are not worthy or qualified to enter heaven in our own right but God has provided a way despite ourselves. The Christ, Jesus, lived that perfect unblemished life, died on the cross and taking our sins upon himself paid the atoning sacrifice for our sake, and rose again that we might be saved through Him. He is the way, the truth, and the life. Essentially, Jesus took on the role of the movie hero that stood up and said, "Take me instead, and let them live!"

Why would God do this? Because...God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18 NKJV)
 
poetofparables said:
I used to imagine as hell as method that eradicates sin rather than a place. Such as bad sectors on a hard drive that need to be isolated and reformatted.
Click to expand...
Dear poetofparables, a friend wrote of this condition so much better than I could of, and I'll just paste the following short explanation of Abraham's Bosom, and hell I hope will give you spiritual insight.

Abraham's Bosom - Study of Luke
by Gene Hawkins

"There was a certain rich man which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores" (Luke 16:19-20). This chapter begins and ends with a rich man. The former could well represent God and His dealings of righteousness, but the latter is most emphatically speaking of the Pharisee. Clothed in purple expresses his own royal exalted opinion of himself, while the fine linen portrays self-righteousness. He fared sumptuously every day, taking thought only of his own comfort, and at the same time, ignoring the desperate needs of someone else.

This also describes the Pharisee's spiritual condition. They were supposed to be well-versed and exercised in spiritual things, and they made a great show of it, but those who were laid at their gates, hungry and full of sores, remained in that miserable condition. Beggars, such as Lazarus, would have been content with a few crumbs which fell from the table, but even that is not said to have been forthcoming. "Moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores" (Luke 16:21). Nothing was done to stop the devastation of Satanic dogs who prey on such defenseless folks. However, God is always mindful of His own, even though some caretakers are unfaithful.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried" (Luke 16:22). Our needy condition is the very thing that brings us into the presence of God, and though apparently forgotten while in his body of humiliation, Lazarus is rewarded with eternal comfort. The self-sufficient rich man discovers another path. "And in hell (hades) he lift up his eyes, and being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom, and he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:23-24).

We are given a look into the spirit world as it existed before Christ's resurrection. Abraham's bosom is the same as Paradise, the promised destination of the repentant thief in Luke 23:43. At this time, it was in the lower parts of the earth, but was taken to heaven when Jesus was resurrected (Ephesians 4:8-9). Hell, hades, or the lowest hell (Deuteronomy 32:22) is seen as a place of torment, which has already begun for the wicked dead. The message to the "former" rich man is plain. He lived only for the day with no preparation for the future, and is now reaping the consequences of such a devastating choice. "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; and neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence" (Luke 16:25). There are no second chances after this life is over. Eternal destinies must be settled now.

"Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house; for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment" (Luke 16:27-28). Though it is too late for himself, these torments are so severe, that he is greatly concerned that his brethren do not share the same fate as he. His request is denied as Abraham tells him that Moses and the prophets have everything that is needed to keep them from such condemnation. "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31). Many people today believe that great miracles will bring men to salvation, however, we are told that there is no recourse if men will not believe the simple Word of God. Moreover, Jesus was raised from the grave, but alas, these self-righteous Pharisees and religious Israel still refused to believe.
 
Eugene said:
Dear poetofparables, a friend wrote of this condition so much better than I could of, and I'll just paste the following short explanation of Abraham's Bosom, and hell I hope will give you spiritual insight.

Abraham's Bosom - Study of Luke
by Gene Hawkins

"There was a certain rich man which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores" (Luke 16:19-20). This chapter begins and ends with a rich man. The former could well represent God and His dealings of righteousness, but the latter is most emphatically speaking of the Pharisee. Clothed in purple expresses his own royal exalted opinion of himself, while the fine linen portrays self-righteousness. He fared sumptuously every day, taking thought only of his own comfort, and at the same time, ignoring the desperate needs of someone else.

This also describes the Pharisee's spiritual condition. They were supposed to be well-versed and exercised in spiritual things, and they made a great show of it, but those who were laid at their gates, hungry and full of sores, remained in that miserable condition. Beggars, such as Lazarus, would have been content with a few crumbs which fell from the table, but even that is not said to have been forthcoming. "Moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores" (Luke 16:21). Nothing was done to stop the devastation of Satanic dogs who prey on such defenseless folks. However, God is always mindful of His own, even though some caretakers are unfaithful.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried" (Luke 16:22). Our needy condition is the very thing that brings us into the presence of God, and though apparently forgotten while in his body of humiliation, Lazarus is rewarded with eternal comfort. The self-sufficient rich man discovers another path. "And in hell (hades) he lift up his eyes, and being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom, and he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:23-24).

We are given a look into the spirit world as it existed before Christ's resurrection. Abraham's bosom is the same as Paradise, the promised destination of the repentant thief in Luke 23:43. At this time, it was in the lower parts of the earth, but was taken to heaven when Jesus was resurrected (Ephesians 4:8-9). Hell, hades, or the lowest hell (Deuteronomy 32:22) is seen as a place of torment, which has already begun for the wicked dead. The message to the "former" rich man is plain. He lived only for the day with no preparation for the future, and is now reaping the consequences of such a devastating choice. "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; and neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence" (Luke 16:25). There are no second chances after this life is over. Eternal destinies must be settled now.

"Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house; for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment" (Luke 16:27-28). Though it is too late for himself, these torments are so severe, that he is greatly concerned that his brethren do not share the same fate as he. His request is denied as Abraham tells him that Moses and the prophets have everything that is needed to keep them from such condemnation. "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31). Many people today believe that great miracles will bring men to salvation, however, we are told that there is no recourse if men will not believe the simple Word of God. Moreover, Jesus was raised from the grave, but alas, these self-righteous Pharisees and religious Israel still refused to believe.
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That doesn't help me understand why eternal suffering is necessary.
 
poetofparables said:
Why is eternal suffering necessary.
Click to expand...
You were given this Scripture and therein lies your answer: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

The Devil (Satan) is an evil spirit who was originally a beautiful angel in Heaven. He caused many angels to rebel against God, and they were all cast out of Heaven. Their eternal punishment is the Lake of Fire -- eternal Hell.

They are now hierarchies of evil spirits working against humanity and desiring their eternal damnation. They are committed to hating God and hating His people. Indeed hating humanity. Therefore their just reward is eternal. This is God's perfect justice against evil and evil doers.

However Christ died and rose again so that not a single human being should be in Hell. That is why it is necessary to preach the Gospel to all mankind. Today, the Gospel and the Bible are available to almost everyone through the internet. If anyone finds themselves in Hell, it is simply because they rejected the Savior and His salvation.
 
LovethroughDove said:
The light has to be separate from the darkness in eternity. So anything that is part of the darkness is in the dark. Suffering is part of the darkness.
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That's an incredible answer, but why did God design the darkness and suffering to remain forever.
 
poetofparables said:
That doesn't help me understand why eternal suffering is necessary.
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If you were God, what would be your solution? As to the extent, or type of fire I have no real idea as it could be a metaphor, but I do believe eternity without God would present an
unquenchable hunger and thirst for His presence in any manner.
 
Eugene said:
If you were God, what would be your solution? As to the extent, or type of fire I have no real idea as it could be a metaphor, but I do believe eternity without God would present an
unquenchable hunger and thirst for His presence in any manner.
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That sounds a little strange, why would God put a hunger in every person and at the same time give us a will that can be rebellious against that hunger.
 
poetofparables said:
That sounds a little strange, why would God put a hunger in every person and at the same time give us a will that can be rebellious against that hunger.
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My post does not sit well with my logic, please disregard it Eugene.
 
poetofparables said:
That's an incredible answer, but why did God design the darkness and suffering to remain forever.
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Good question. What immediately came to my mind is, can you have light without darkness?
Genesis 1:1-3 NKJV
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Can good exist without evil? I'm taken to these words of Paul.
Romans 7:7-9 NKJV
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
 
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