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Eternal damnation

TimothyW said:
According to Jesus Christ, as recorded in Matthew 7:13 and in Matthew 10:28 they will be destroyed.
According to John 3:16, they will perish. According to Jesus as recorded in Luke 13:3, unless a man repents, he will perish.
According to the Bible, as recorded in Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death.

Now. Why should I believe that the wages of sin is NOT death, but eternal conscious torment instead of death?
Why shouldn't I believe what Jesus says instead of what you say?

And I'm not even asking you to believe that the wicked will be destroyed as the Bible says.
I'm only asking that the ultimate destruction of the wicked be considered as biblical view alongside the traditional view that the wicked will not be destroyed in hell.

P.O.P. Does "salted with fire" mean "tormented alive forever in fire without end"? Isn't that reading A LOT into that verse?
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No, could mean you're saved by the fire "salted" like how christians are supposed to be salted with love, salt of the earth, have flavour.
 
poetofparables said:
Let me add this verse to the mix.

Mark 9:49New International Version (NIV)
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

Can someone get that verse in context, because I'm having trouble at bible gateway while on my phone.
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Dear poetofparables, to me, your reference to Mark 9:49 is speaking of the incorruptibility of the person and their sacrifice. Doesn't this follow the thought of Mark 9:41? For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
 
Eugene said:
Dear poetofparables, to me, your reference to Mark 9:49 is speaking of the incorruptibility of the person and their sacrifice. Doesn't this follow the thought of Mark 9:41? For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
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I'll tell you what it does say, MAN THE BIBLES CONFUSING.
 
poetofparables said:
I'll tell you what it does say, MAN THE BIBLES CONFUSING.
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Probably because we read it with human understanding.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV

This is why it is so important for us to be open to receiving the Holy Spirit who will help us.
 
WIP said:
Probably because we read it with human understanding.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV

This is why it is so important for us to be open to receiving the Holy Spirit who will help us.
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<LIKE>
 
WIP said:
Probably because we read it with human understanding.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV

This is why it is so important for us to be open to receiving the Holy Spirit who will help us.
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So all these people arguing and disagreeing with each other don't have the holy spirit? Or they do but they won't listen to it? So what is the spirit really saying about this topic?
 
John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light (Jesus) has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

As other people have stated, we are God's creation and he has a system in place to judge his harvest. Have you ever seen "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory"? It is like Veruca Salt when she steps onto the "good egg" or "good nut" conveyor belt. So, dark will be with darkness.
 
poetofparables said:
So all these people arguing and disagreeing with each other don't have the holy spirit?
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Since when does arguing and disagreeing with each other mean we don't have the Holy Spirit? Last time I checked, the Holy Spirit guides indwelt people toward the Truth (John 16:13). Which by definition means we're not there yet and need guidance.

If our thoughts were God's thoughts, we wouldn't need guidance, right?

poetofparables said:
So what is the spirit really saying about this topic?
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We don't really have anyone with the username "The Holy Spirit" here. What we have are people who's thoughts are less truthful than God's thoughts, yet are being guided by The Holy Spirit.
 
chessman said:
Since when does arguing and disagreeing with each other mean we don't have the Holy Spirit? Last time I checked, the Holy Spirit guides indwelt people toward the Truth (John 16:13). Which by definition means we're not there yet and need guidance.

If our thoughts were God's thoughts, we wouldn't need guidance, right?



We don't really have anyone with the username "The Holy Spirit" here. What we have are people who's thoughts are less truthful than God's thoughts, yet are being guided by The Holy Spirit.
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Yeah I think I understand that christian logic.
 
LovethroughDove said:
John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light (Jesus) has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

As other people have stated, we are God's creation and he has a system in place to judge his harvest. Have you ever seen "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory"? It is like Veruca Salt when she steps onto the "good egg" or "good nut" conveyor belt. So, dark will be with darkness.
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Yep.
 
JLB said:
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-46

The everlasting punishment is being cast into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.


The key phrase here is ... into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.


The scripture is specific in Revelation, in describing the fate of the Devil.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10

They represents those who were cast into the lake of fire... the beast, the false prophet, the devil.

Jesus said to those whom He sentenced to be cast into the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment, was the same fire as the devil and his angels.

The devil is cast into the lake of fire, and will be tormented day and night forever, along with the beast and the false prophet.

The destroying process for these will last forever, as the punishment is everlasting, and the fire which brings about the eternal destruction is also everlasting.


'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



JLB
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JLB, there have been times that I didn't agree with you, probably because I didn't fully understand clearly what you were saying. BUT, you just hit a home run there my old friend, Bravo! A while ago I was trying to put together the lost and those who received the mark of the beast together with the devil and his partners and they would TOGETHER be cast into the lake of fire. Wow, then I read this post of yours and thank you for putting my thoughts into action. I have gone back and forth with this whole argument. At one time I sided with Tim and some others that the lost would not be tormented forever. I'm afraid that that was wishful thinking because my Brother is not saved. So, a simple man as myself, I take literally, in most cases, what the Word of God says instead of a human way of interpreting Scripture and by a human way of explaining. Example: Fire absolutely consumes the wood, there's nothing left. That's how Tim explains it, I think. That is human reasoning and can not be used to counter or argue against a literal statement that the lost and the devil will be cast into the lake of fire for ever, FOR EVER!

Thats what the Bible says, not man....Thank you again JLB, you have never swayed away from the truth, I respect that in you.
 
The fact is that christians have been at this for 2000 years and its become so divided that it's impossible to differentiate who's telling the truth.
 
I just can't accept a God of order could be responsible for such disorder.
 
That is why in Revelation 2 & 3 the Spirit shows who has been wrong and the only people doing it completely right is the church of Philadelphia. 2 & 3 are warnings to the different believers.
 
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