Eternal Security of the Believer !

[Mitspa]

Mitspa, that is not what Eternal security is. When you accept a "believer" can be separated from the saving grace of God, then it is not Eternal security.

urk, I gave several examples esp., Ananias and Sapphira, Holy Spirit destroying the believer for defiling his body in sexual immorality.. why is that you never want to address these truth?

(1 Corinthians 6:18) Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
(1 Corinthians 6:19) Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit [who is] in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
(1 Corinthians 3:16) Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?
(1 Corinthians 3:17) If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.

Which believer is Paul taking about? How is that Holy Spirit is dwelling on someone who you call "not a believer to begin with"?

As i already mentioned, always back your statements with Scripture. This will show you how much you are being deceived.

First there is no biblical statement that Ananias and Sapphira was "believers" but they were call a "certain" man named Ananias, so I see no reason to believer they were anything other than an example of false belivers.

Also I do nolt know what you or others call "eternal security" but I will stay within the scrpitures. The scriptures make eternal security very clear for those who are sincere in faith.

Those who have Gods Love cannot be seperated from that love. That sound pretty secure to me. Now the warnings in scripture are not for sincere belivers who trust in Gods grace, but are for those who seek to justify themselves by thier own efforts and turn back to law.

Also, again Paul never mentions that these folks who defile the temple have lost the Holy Spirit or their salvation in Christ. That is your position, and you are wrong.

I have not nor have I seen anyone else promote such things,
But the strength of sin is the law, the power over sin is grace.

Paul never points a believer back to the law, but always to live by the spirit in faith.

So your sciptures have no bearing on this issue, and prove nothing to anyone. As far as my use of scripture, I am a living epistle and the Word of God flows from my heart. So I will continue to post as I desire and you can do as you like.

Now you have made several statements in which you attempt to judge my understanding and my position in Christ. I have power to judge you and I already know what you are. You seem to enjoy judging others and beating others with scripture, I assure you that you wrong on almost every issue you have addressed and your conduct is not one that shows that you have much understanding in the Divine nature.

 

[felix]

First there is no biblical statement that Ananias and Sapphira was "believers" but they were call a "certain" man named Ananias, so I see no reason to believer they were anything other than an example of false belivers.

Also I do nolt know what you or others call "eternal security" but I will stay within the scrpitures. The scriptures make eternal security very clear for those who are sincere in faith.

Those who have Gods Love cannot be seperated from that love. That sound pretty secure to me. Now the warnings in scripture are not for sincere belivers who trust in Gods grace, but are for those who seek to justify themselves by thier own efforts and turn back to law.

Also, again Paul never mentions that these folks who defile the temple have lost the Holy Spirit or their salvation in Christ. That is your position, and you are wrong.

I have not nor have I seen anyone else promote such things,
But the strength of sin is the law, the power over sin is grace.

Paul never points a believer back to the law, but always to live by the spirit in faith.

So your sciptures have no bearing on this issue, and prove nothing to anyone. As far as my use of scripture, I am a living epistle and the Word of God flows from my heart. So I will continue to post as I desire and you can do as you like.

Now you have made several statements in which you attempt to judge my understanding and my position in Christ. I have power to judge you and I already know what you are. You seem to enjoy judging others and beating others with scripture, I assure you that you wrong on almost every issue you have addressed and your conduct is not one that shows that you have much understanding in the Divine nature.

Ok, I asked you to quote Scripture to back your statement. Didn't I?

First of all, they lied to Holy Spirit not to Peter. Secondly the love of God is NEVER given to us.

I told you to back it with Scripture. You can speak jargon all day but without scripture, you have no idea what you are speaking as you always speak the same rubbish again and again. So, please back your statements with SCRIPTURE and I am happy to address them.

 

[Mitspa]

Can you please back your statement with Scripture and I will show you where you have error-ed.

Well if you are able to correct me? then you should know the scriptures I am quoting? If you do not, I doubt you have any ability to correct me. lol

 

[felix]

Well if you are able to correct me? then you should know the scriptures I am quoting? If you do not, I doubt you have any ability to correct me. lol

Can you go back and look all the replies I made? I quoted everything with verses and you conveniently ignore and never address them, but rather speak the same thing again and again without backing it with scripture.

Do you know that Holy Spirit who dwells in the believer will destroy him for defiling his body which is His Temple?

As i said, you never back anything with scripture nor have any intention to know the truth by looking into the scripture which I quote. But rather, speak the same jargon again and again.

 

[Guest]

Of course I do!

Now as far as "lifted up" or "cut off" issue it has no effect or bearing on those of us who love Christ, we will NEVER be cut from His Branch.

Like most of the warnings of scripture, it is for those who are religious and play games with God, not for those of us who are sincere in our love for Him.

Calm down Mitspa, I'm on your side buddy. I've watched you teach and preach for a while now. You're a good teacher/preacher and a brother in Christ.

If Salvation is already given, what is that that will be revealed in the last time or second coming of Christ? What is that you had received when Peter and Paul preach a salvation that will be received when Christ comes again?

Are you saying you're taking the chance for salvation only in Christ's second coming?? What if you die before he comes?? Again felix, where did Jesus go after he died? People are receiving salvation in this lifetime, as we now walk the earth! What are you thinking in that head of yours felix? What did you think?..you can remain a sinner then die and enter Holy Land? No felix, you must be born again of the Holy Spirit in this lifetime BEFORE YOU DIE to enter Holy Land AFTER YOU DIE. Where Jesus lives now is Holy! Heaven is not defiled with sin. Open your eyes!!!! Heaven is PURE!!!!!

 

[Mitspa]

Ok, I asked you to quote Scripture to back your statement. Didn't I?

First of all, they lied to Holy Spirit not to Peter. Secondly the love of God is NEVER given to us.

I told you to back it with Scripture. You can speak jargon all day but without scripture, you have no idea what you are speaking as you always speak the same rubbish again and again. So, please back your statements with SCRIPTURE and I am happy to address them.

First I say again, I will post scripture as I decide to post them.
Get over it!
They lied to the Holy Spirit, that does not mean they were "believers" but many come into the House of God and attempt such things. It has no bearing on the issue at all.

If you not understand that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and that love is a fruit of the Spirit? If you do not understand this basic truth, I do not think that you have much knowledge of God at all.

 

[felix]

First I say again, I will post scripture as I decide to post them.
Get over it!
They lied to the Holy Spirit, that does not mean they were "believers" but many come into the House of God and attempt such things. It has no bearing on the issue at all.

If you not understand that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and that love is a fruit of the Spirit? If you do not understand this basic truth, I do not think that you have much knowledge of God at all.

It does because, they lied to Holy Spirit.

Do you know what it means by "fruit"? Isn't Christ expects these fruits?

Isn't these fruits Christ is expecting?

(Luke 13:6) He also spoke this parable: "A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
(Luke 13:7) "Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
(Luke 13:8) "But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize [it.]
(Luke 13:9) 'And if it bears fruit, [well.] But if not, after that you can cut it down.' "

(Luke 3:9) "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

How ironic you what accept that love is the fruit of Spirit and yet accept no fruit is required for Salvation, completely contradicting Christ?

 

[Mitspa]

Can you go back and look all the replies I made? I quoted everything with verses and you conveniently ignore and never address them, but rather speak the same thing again and again without backing it with scripture.

Do you know that Holy Spirit who dwells in the believer will destroy him for defiling his body which is His Temple?

As i said, you never back anything with scripture nor have any intention to know the truth by looking into the scripture which I quote. But rather, speak the same jargon again and again.

I reject that the scriptures you have posted means anything but what they say. They do not "unsave" anyone because salvation is not in the flesh, but in the spirit. Paul makes the point to say that they will be saved. You are just wrong.
The destruction is of the flesh, not the spirit. This point is clear!
I quote scripture with almost every word I post, if you do not recognize these scriptures? Then you need more study.

1 Cor 3:14-16 here is a scripture read it in context.
Again Paul says that a man can be burned and suffer loss, but he himself will be saved.
No where does Paul suggest that these people have lost the salvation of their soul and spirits, but that they bring destruction upon the flesh. You do understand the difference between the spirit , soul and flesh, dont you?

 

[felix]

I reject that the scriptures you have posted means anything but what they say. They do not "unsave" anyone because salvation is not in the flesh, but in the spirit. Paul makes the point to say that they will be saved. You are just wrong.
The destruction is of the flesh, not the spirit. This point is clear!
I quote scripture with almost every word I post, if you do not recognize these scriptures? Then you need more study.

1 Cor 3:14-16 here is a scripture read it in context.
Again Paul says that a man can be burned and suffer loss, but he himself will be saved.
No where does Paul suggest that these people have lost the salvation of their soul and spirits, but that they bring destruction upon the flesh. You do understand the difference between the spirit , soul and flesh, dont you?

If this is the case (as you interpreted), why is Paul and Peter saying that Salvation is a "future" event and was never given to anyone to begin with? Also, Why is Eternal life a promise and hidden in Christ when it is already given?

 

[Guest]

Mitspa, that is not what Eternal security is. When you accept a "believer" can be separated from the saving grace of God, then it is not Eternal security.

No felix, my God you're more exhausting than the Vanguard poster. This guy believed Hell wasn't without punishment. The devil's got you so twisted in false scripture, it's really sad to see. Not to mention, you're not even listening to us, you're just brushing off what we say and going about your business. Your mentality is 'I can't be wrong'. How many times now have we told you that Salvation is a gift? Aren't you even wondering why everyone disagrees with you, shouldn't that set off light-bulbs in your head??

For crying out loud felix, every poster in this thread disagrees with you! For the umpteenth time, when a person obtains salvation, it is a gift from God. It is God's grace that saves us felix. After you obtain salvation in this lifetime, you obtain Eternal security.

 

[Mitspa]

If this is the case (as you interpreted), why is Paul and Peter saying that Salvation is a "future" event and was never given to anyone to begin with? Also, Why is Eternal life a promise and hidden in Christ when it is already given?

Well there is a completion of salvation, when we die or the Lord returns and we are delivered from this body of sin forever. But we "who are born-again of the Spirit" have the assurance and the truth of Christ in us and us in Christ. This is all true in spirit, not in flesh. But we overcome the flesh and live and walk according to the spirit. This is what Paul taught, over and over.

I know all the scriptures, what you are saying is not found in them.

 

[felix]

Well there is a completion of salvation, when we die or the Lord returns and we are delivered from this body of sin forever. But we "who are born-again of the Spirit" have the assurance and the truth of Christ in us and us in Christ. This is all true in spirit, not in flesh. But we overcome the flesh and live and walk according to the spirit. This is what Paul taught, over and over.

I know all the scriptures, what you are saying is not found in them.

Completion of salvation? You just told that salvation is already provided. Why it has to be completed? So, it is half given and half waiting? So what is salvation then ? Does it come in installment? How Unbiblical nonsense!

 

[felix]

No felix, my God you're more exhausting than the Vanguard poster. This guy believed Hell wasn't without punishment. The devil's got you so twisted in false scripture, it's really sad to see. Not to mention, you're not even listening to us, you're just brushing off what we say and going about your business. Your mentality is 'I can't be wrong'. How many times now have we told you that Salvation is a gift? Aren't you even wondering why everyone disagrees with you, shouldn't that set off light-bulbs in your head??

For crying out loud felix, every poster in this thread disagrees with you! For the umpteenth time, when a person obtains salvation, it is a gift from God. It is God's grace that saves us felix. After you obtain salvation in this lifetime, you obtain Eternal security.

You never showed any scripture someone can actually receive salvation for the verses I mentioned earlier.

When you say: This guy believed Hell wasn't without punishment. The devil's got you so twisted in false scripture, it's really sad to see.

I have no idea which Bible you read:
(Mark 9:43) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched --
(Mark 9:44) "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
(Mark 9:45) "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched --
(Mark 9:46) "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
(Mark 9:47) "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire --
(Mark 9:48) "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'


You also said: when a person obtains salvation, it is a gift from God
FYI, Bible NEVER says Salvation is a gift. It only mentions "grace" to be gift from God and for grace, you had to be worthy and humble.
(Acts 15:11) "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God
(Hebrews 12:14-15) Pursue peace with all [people,] and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
(James 4:6) But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."

(Hebrews 10:29) Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[Mitspa]

Completion of salvation? You just told that salvation is already provided. Why it has to be completed? So, it is half given and half waiting? So what is salvation then ? Does it come in installment? How Unbiblical nonsense!

Those are your words, NOT my words, THEY are clear as I posted them.
We have salvation in the spirit, the flesh is not saved. This is clear and evident in scripture and cannot be challenged.

 

[felix]

Those are your words, NOT my words, THEY are clear as I posted them.
We have salvation in the spirit, the flesh is not saved. This is clear and evident in scripture and cannot be challenged.

If you already have salvation in spirit, what has to be completed then? You still haven't given any answer for why Salvation is a future event. Further, Eternal life is also "hidden" in Christ. How do you even consider to have eternal life when it is actually with Christ?

• (Colossians 3:3) For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
• (1 John 5:11-12) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

The final installment of Salvation is during Christ's second coming? wow! absolute nonsense. So, you have any "twisted" interpretation for eternal life which you don't have as Bible clear as a day says it is with Christ?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Urk, Mitspa, I fear you're wasting your time trying to convert a fanatic. Perhaps seeds will be planted. God bless.

 

[felix]

Urk, Mitspa, I fear you're wasting your time trying to convert a fanatic. Perhaps seeds will be planted. God bless.

Yes, I am a fanatic for Christ and His Scripture. Is there any problem with that?

 

[Mitspa]

If you already have salvation in spirit, what has to be completed then? You still haven't given any answer for why Salvation is a future event. Further, Eternal life is also "hidden" in Christ. How do you even consider to have eternal life when it is actually with Christ?

• (Colossians 3:3) For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
• (1 John 5:11-12) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

The final installment of Salvation is during Christ's second coming? wow! absolute nonsense. So, you have any "twisted" interpretation for eternal life which you don't have as Bible clear as a day says it is with Christ?

Well again you are the one who claims a completion of salvation, My salvation is complete in spirit and when I put off this body of sin, I will see Him face to face and I will know Him, just as I am known.
Again you seem to have no understanding between flesh and spirit? You do not even seem to understand how Gods love has been given to us? The scriptures you post, in no way prove any point you have tried to make. I reject that you have made any biblical point on the issue of "eternal salvation"

Again I am in doubt of you.

 

[Guest]

You never showed any scripture someone can actually receive salvation for the verses I mentioned earlier.

Romans 10:9 felix, but you wanna know what the irony is? Confessing that you're a sinner is not memorizing every scripture in the Bible. No, there is action involved!! What is the action felix?

You also said: when a person obtains salvation, it is a gift from God - FYI, Bible NEVER says Salvation is a gift. It only mentions "grace" to be gift from God and for grace, you had to be worthy and humble.

You believe hell is with punishment?? Wow, felix very good! That's good that you understand that. Moving on, I will just assume you're right, that the Bible doesn't say that salvation is a gift but why does that confuse you. Ok, well let's break it down so we don't get confused..

Definition of Salvation: the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.
Definition of Grace: mercy; clemency; pardon, favor or goodwill

As you can see here salvation is an action taken on by God, grace describes the action. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Do you see it felix, please tell me you do!!)

The words that are placed in your heart are placed in the wrong setting than the actual truth that's right in front of your face, the devil has mixed up the words in your heart so you can't see truth. You're almost there felix. Keep talking to me, and I will do my best to help you discern truth.

 

[felix]

Romans 10:9 felix, but you wanna know what the irony is? Confessing that you're a sinner is not memorizing every scripture in the Bible. No, there is action involved!! What is the action felix?

"will be saved" or "shall be saved" mentioned in the verse is future. It doesn't say "are saved". This is ironic.

You believe hell is with punishment?? Wow, felix very good! That's good that you understand that. Moving on, I will just assume you're right, that the Bible doesn't say that salvation is a gift but why does that confuse you. Ok, well let's break it down so we don't get confused..

Definition of Salvation: the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.
Definition of Grace: mercy; clemency; pardon, favor or goodwill

As you can see here salvation is an action taken on by God, grace describes the action. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Do you see it felix, please tell me you do!!)

The words that are placed in your heart are placed in the wrong setting than the actual truth that's right in front of your face, the devil has mixed up the words in your heart so you can't see truth. You're almost there felix. Keep talking to me, and I will do my best to help you discern truth.

Yes, grace is a gift from God. But you totally forgot that this free grace is not for all.

(Hebrews 12:14-15) Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.