Eternal Security of the Believer !

[felix]

You have mentioned the law, over and over. The commandments of God unto the believer is Faith in His Son and love as He loves us. FAITH WORKING BY LOVE. Now either you know this like many claim to do, but yet you present scripture to suggest a believer is judged by the law of moses?
Why? Also you seem to ignore the all that Paul taught concerning the law and why it was given, for only when one understands Pauls gospel can one understand why the Lord used the law as He did. He brought its full weight upon a group of self-righteous and deceived people.

Let me know where I mentioned the law. Also, the definition of Faith according to Paul is:

(Acts 24:24) And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(Acts 24:25) Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, "Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you."

Also I would ask you is holiness a product of mans flesh? Can man produce holiness by his own efforts? Of course he cannot nor is this religious form of holiness accepted before God. Holiness is a life seperated unto God, The righteousness of faith alone, bears fruit onto holiness. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, law and legalism have a "form" but was not accepted in the pharisee and God not tolerate such things in those who claim to be believers. Now until one is set free from the law, they cannot understand "ETERNAL" salvation, nor eternal things in general, because they are fleshly minded. Meaning they see themselves and others according to the flesh and not the spirit.

Yes, holiness and righteousness is our effort. If Christ asks us to be more holy and more righteous, then yes, it is our effort.

(Revelation 22:11) "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

I can say, you reject all Christ's teachings for your own doctrine. You separate Salvation from Christ but unfortunately, that is not the Salvation from Christ as mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Guest]

I can say, you reject all Christ's teachings for your own doctrine. You separate Salvation from Christ but unfortunately, that is not the Salvation from Christ as mentioned in the Bible.

The correct definition of Faith is having confidence or trust in a person or thing: belief that is not based on proof.

 

[savedbygrace57]

thats just silly!

Ok !

 

[Mitspa]

Let me know where I mentioned the law. Also, the definition of Faith according to Paul is:

(Acts 24:24) And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(Acts 24:25) Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, "Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you."




Yes, holiness and righteousness is our effort. If Christ asks us to be more holy and more righteous, then yes, it is our effort.

(Revelation 22:11) "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

I can say, you reject all Christ's teachings for your own doctrine. You separate Salvation from Christ but unfortunately, that is not the Salvation from Christ as mentioned in the Bible.

What? No those who seek self-righteousness seperate salvation from Christ and His Work.
Also Paul wrote much on faith including a whole chapter in the Book of Hebrews, to define faith by this scriptures is just not acceptable under any understanding of biblical truth. There is dozens upon dozens of scripture that define "faith" yours is not one of them at all!

I am not sure what point "you think" is made in Rev 22:11 but it in NO WAY changes the gospel that Paul preached.

You say that holiness and righteousness are by self-effort!
No wonder the security of the salvation and righteousness of faith seem unsure to you! God does not want those who are self-righteous to feel or think they can earn eternal salvation, He wants them to repent from their works of flesh, and look to the Lamb of God (Christ) Just as that wicked Cain sought to offer to God a work of his flesh, he was rejected. But Able offered the Lamb and was righteous and accepted before the Lord.

For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness and going about to establish THEIR OWN, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

This is just the error and hypocricy of the pharisee and will not be accepted before The Lord God.

 

[felix]

The correct definition of Faith is having confidence or trust in a person or thing: belief that is not based on proof.

That is not what Bible teaches. Faith or believe without evidence is a dead faith.

(James 2:14) What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
(James 2:17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
(James 2:20) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
(James 2:24) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[felix]

You talk a lot about salvation, but you never mention how to obtain salvation. Do you understand that God raised Jesus from the dead and dwells inside of believers walking this earth? Your belief system is very confusing. I don't understand what your believing in. You believe salvation is in Christ, but one bad mistake and that's it, our salvation is gone?!? No sir, if that was true then none of his promises have been kept. That is false doctrine.

If you agree Salvation is in Christ, when did you receive it then? If you bear no fruit (or) practice lawlessness, you reject Christ and so does Salvation which is "in Him" goes with Him.

Salvation is NEVER given to anyone except that it is "in Christ" and it is through Him, you receive Salvation, not that it is a separate package but we receive it because of who is in us. You cannot separate Salvation and Christ.

What do you think, a sinner automatically understands how to obey God?? It doesn't work that way man. A man's heart is sinful and hardened by nature. It takes the love of God and his grace to burst open this mans heart to God! Not only does a sinner hate God, he doesn't even know what he's hating. Nothing is earned correct, because a gift is a gift no matter if you've earned it or not. If someone hands you a gift, that gift is out of love. God's salvation is a gift to us because God loved us first before we loved him!

You need to get that 'we need to obey or else we go to hell' idea out of your head because it's false felix. God is not Hitler, God knows we are not perfect. He created people from our mothers womb for crying out loud. He knows everything. He created us with flaws, even after salvation. There is nothing in this world that can break the seal of God. Once saved, always saved. You need to open your eyes a little bit and start listening to our brothers and sisters on this board.

I also understand you worship a christ who did not say the below:

(Matthew 7:21) " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
(Matthew 7:22) "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
(Matthew 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

 

[Mitspa]

That is not what Bible teaches. Faith or believe without evidence is a dead faith.

(James 2:14) What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
(James 2:17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
(James 2:20) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
(James 2:24) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

So the Apostle Paul, states that a man is justified apart from the works of the law, 10 commandments and all the old testament! So these works of James are not works of law, but works of faith. Jesus said the "works" I do you shall do also. works of faith, a living faith is the point.

That no man is justified by the law is evident! This means anyone who can read the bible should understand this truth.

The ONLY biblical reason given for be "cut off" from Christ and His saving grace is those who attempt to justify themselves by works of law.

So then clearly, james is not speaking of "works" of law!

 

[felix]

What? No those who seek self-righteousness seperate salvation from Christ and His Work.
Also Paul wrote much on faith including a whole chapter in the Book of Hebrews, to define faith by this scriptures is just not acceptable under any understanding of biblical truth. There is dozens upon dozens of scripture that define "faith" yours is not one of them at all!

I am not sure what point "you think" is made in Rev 22:11 but it in NO WAY changes the gospel that Paul preached.

You say that holiness and righteousness are by self-effort!
No wonder the security of the salvation and righteousness of faith seem unsure to you! God does not want those who are self-righteous to feel or think they can earn eternal salvation, He wants them to repent from their works of flesh, and look to the Lamb of God (Christ) Just as that wicked Cain sought to offer to God a work of his flesh, he was rejected. But Able offered the Lamb and was righteous and accepted before the Lord.

For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness and going about to establish THEIR OWN, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

This is just the error and hypocricy of the pharisee and will not be accepted before The Lord God.

Next time when you reply, please back your statements with Scripture. I do not want to hear you jargon that does not have any truth in it. So, please use Scripture that says that and I can address them directly.

Do you have any idea that Paul was using self-righteous as righteousness of the law and not the righteousness in Christ, repeatedly?

(Romans 2:5) But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
(Romans 2:6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
(Romans 2:7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
(Romans 2:8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath,
(Romans 2:9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
(Romans 2:10) but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Paul clearly differentiates the righteousness of the law and righteousness from God.
(Philippians 3:9) and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Which is exactly what sermon on the mount is all about.

I can show the path to blind but I can't do it to those who pretend to be blind.

 

[Mitspa]

If you agree Salvation is in Christ, when did you receive it then? If you bear no fruit (or) practice lawlessness, you reject Christ and so does Salvation which is "in Him" goes with Him.

Salvation is NEVER given to anyone except that it is "in Christ" and it is through Him, you receive Salvation, not that it is a separate package but we receive it because of who is in us. You cannot separate Salvation and Christ.



I also understand you worship a christ who did not say the below:

(Matthew 7:21) " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
(Matthew 7:22) "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
(Matthew 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Yes those who think they keep the law of moses, DO NOT!
they are lawless, because they are under law and break the law!
Also many claim to be christians, and are not "born-again" they say Lord with their mouth but they do not have the Spirit in their heart.
Again the ONLY biblical reason for a "believer" to be cut off from Christ is when the turn from the law of liberty, the law of faith, the law of love, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, back into the law of sin and death.

This is the lawless ones!

 

[felix]

So the Apostle Paul, states that a man is justified apart from the works of the law, 10 commandments and all the old testament! So these works of James are not works of law, but works of faith. Jesus said the "works" I do you shall do also. works of faith, a living faith is the point.

That no man is justified by the law is evident! This means anyone who can read the bible should understand this truth.

The ONLY biblical reason given for be "cut off" from Christ and His saving grace is those who attempt to justify themselves by works of law.

So then clearly, james is not speaking of "works" of law!

No, you are right in saying, James is not speaking of the works of the law.

However, you are wrong in the only biblical reason given to be "cut off" from Christ.

Look what Christ Himself said:
(Matthew 7:21) " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
(Matthew 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Who rejects God?
(1 Thessalonians 4:7) For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
(1 Thessalonians 4:8) Therefore he who rejects [this] does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Can Holy Spirit destroy a believer?
(1 Corinthians 3:16) Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?
(1 Corinthians 3:17) If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.

In addition to all the above (which even includes Paul's), Paul on certain circumstances was addressing to a particular problem where Jews were forcing the gentiles to follow the law and Paul was rebuking the situation, saying it is not necessary. At one instance, he even rebuked Peter before all. Taking a particular reply for a particular situation will often lead to deception, which is why, the foundation must be of Christ and then, apply Paul's teachings over it. Eternal security was never taught by Christ nor by Paul.

 

[felix]

Again the ONLY biblical reason for a "believer" to be cut off from Christ is when the turn from the law of liberty, the law of faith, the law of love, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, back into the law of sin and death.

This is the lawless ones!

So, what is the disagreement between us? You statement itself says you don't believe in Eternal Security. I think we don't have any disagreement between us.

 

[Guest]

That is not what Bible teaches. Faith or believe without evidence is a dead faith.

No, it's not dead faith, you have that backwards. What you mean to say his he is not dead inside believers, he is dead inside of sinners and alive inside of believers! A sinner doesn't know what he is believing and confessing in Romans 10:9 - The way the sinner knows is for him to wait upon the Lord, and he will come and bring to life again, you're spirit/soul/mind/body.

If you agree Salvation is in Christ, when did you receive it then? If you bear no fruit (or) practice lawlessness, you reject Christ and so does Salvation which is "in Him" goes with Him.

Salvation is NEVER given to anyone except that it is "in Christ" and it is through Him, you receive Salvation, not that it is a separate package but we receive it because of who is in us. You cannot separate Salvation and Christ.

I received salvation in the fall of 2005. I admitted that I was a sinner, and that I needed his help. I truly was asking, seeking and knocking. Matthew 7:7 - Salvation 1st, Bible 2nd felix. Why would you think I don't bear fruit?? Your idea of salvation is misconstrued. Salvation is given! Did God not love us before we loved him?? Yes that's correct, you cannot separate salvation and Christ. What you are confused about is that when we receive salvation, we receive the Holy Spirit and God's Word as a gift...what you do after salvation is THEN you go out into the world and preach the Bible AFTER salvation. What's the point of preaching the Bible without admitting you're a sinner first and asking, seeking and knocking? You talk about dead faith, that right there is dead faith!

Felix, let me ask you a question. Where did Jesus go when he died?

 

[Mitspa]

Next time when you reply, please back your statements with Scripture. I do not want to hear you jargon that does not have any truth in it. So, please use Scripture that says that and I can address them directly.

Do you have any idea that Paul was using self-righteous as righteousness of the law and not the righteousness in Christ, repeatedly?

(Romans 2:5) But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
(Romans 2:6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
(Romans 2:7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
(Romans 2:8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath,
(Romans 2:9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
(Romans 2:10) but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Paul clearly differentiates the righteousness of the law and righteousness from God.
(Philippians 3:9) and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Which is exactly what sermon on the mount is all about.

I can show the path to blind but I can't do it to those who pretend to be blind.

Yes the righteousness of faith! so do you now agree with me, that a man cannot produce righteousness by his own works in the law?
See Paul goes on in the book of romans to explain that the law produces sinful desires and to be free from sin, one must die to the law, and live by faith in the spirit. That by faith the Spirit will produce the good works.

Also I will post what I will post, if I need to post a scripture to make a point, I will do that.
You call me blind, I say that I can see. lol

 

[Mitspa]

No, you are right in saying, James is not speaking of the works of the law.

However, you are wrong in the only biblical reason given to be "cut off" from Christ.

Look what Christ Himself said:
(Matthew 7:21) " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
(Matthew 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Who rejects God?
(1 Thessalonians 4:7) For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
(1 Thessalonians 4:8) Therefore he who rejects [this] does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Can Holy Spirit destroy a believer?
(1 Corinthians 3:16) Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?
(1 Corinthians 3:17) If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.

In addition to all the above (which even includes Paul's), Paul on certain circumstances was addressing to a particular problem where Jews were forcing the gentiles to follow the law and Paul was rebuking the situation, saying it is not necessary. At one instance, he even rebuked Peter before all. Taking a particular reply for a particular situation will often lead to deception, which is why, the foundation must be of Christ and then, apply Paul's teachings over it. Eternal security was never taught by Christ nor by Paul.

This is clear and Paul makes this point over and over? Gal 5:4 Ye are SEVERED form Christ, ye who would be justified by the law, ye have fallen from grace.

The word is "katargeo" to be rendered entirely idle.(useless)
Brought to nought, cut off

So this is clearly that which the Lord spoke of, also Pauls makes the point that those who attempt to justify themselves by the law are CURSED, which the Lord also mentioned as those who were cut off.

 

[Guest]

So, what is the disagreement between us? You statement itself says you don't believe in Eternal Security. I think we don't have any disagreement between us.

Mitspa believes in Eternal Security felix, if a 'believer' is 'cut off' then he was never truly in Christ to begin with; a false prophet if you will. He was not a believer to begin with.

 

[Mitspa]

So, what is the disagreement between us? You statement itself says you don't believe in Eternal Security. I think we don't have any disagreement between us.

No we are speaking of two very different things, you have presented over and over that a "believer" is seperated based upon sin against the law of moses. Now I know you will reject that, but anyone who has been reading your post , can see that is what you have tried to put forth. Now I remind you of the judgment you love to point out in scripture. There is no honest reason for one to present that we are under law if they do not intend to put others in bondage to it. You may be like many others who attempt this tactic, but when they get called on thier doctrines, attempt to act as if they never had that intention?

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa believes in Eternal Security felix, if a 'believer' is 'cut off' then he was never truly in Christ to begin with; a false prophet if you will. He was not a believer to begin with.

Of course I do! But I am trying to make a point about what actually seperates a believer from the saving grace of God.
I do not know about what some would call OSAS, but a believer that trust in Gods Grace, "real grace" is the most secure being ever. Nothing can seperate us from His Love, if we have that love.
Ther is some other issues to raise on this topic, and Hebrews does show that those who turn from grace back into law should not have confidence and are in danger of Gods judgment, because they reject the Spirit of Grace.

Now This issue has some conditions, having tasted the good word, and of the heavenly gifts. etc... Once a man has been shown a certain amount of truth, he is responsible if he turns away and cannot be renewed again to grace. But God in His Wisdom will not allow certain folks to into this deeper understanding for their own protection.

Now as far as "lifted up" or "cut off" issue it has no effect or bearing on those of us who love Christ, we will NEVER be cut from His Branch.
Like most of the warnings of scripture, it is for those who are religious and play games with God, not for those of us who are sincere in our love for Him.

 

[felix]

I received salvation in the fall of 2005. I admitted that I was a sinner, and that I needed his help. I truly was asking, seeking and knocking. Matthew 7:7 - Salvation 1st, Bible 2nd felix. Why would you think I don't bear fruit?? Your idea of salvation is misconstrued. Salvation is given! Did God not love us before we loved him?? Yes that's correct, you cannot separate salvation and Christ. What you are confused about is that when we receive salvation, we receive the Holy Spirit and God's Word as a gift...what you do after salvation is THEN you go out into the world and preach the Bible AFTER salvation. What's the point of preaching the Bible without admitting you're a sinner first and asking, seeking and knocking? You talk about dead faith, that right there is dead faith!

When you say "Why would you think I don't bear fruit"... have you any idea what Christ told?
(Matthew 7:19) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Have you any idea what John was preaching?
(Matthew 3:10) "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Sorry brother, you have received a 'fake salvation' from another 'puppy little every loving jesus' that is not mentioned in the Bible, nor preached by apostles and disciples.
(Hebrews 9:28) so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(1 Peter 1:5) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

If Salvation is already given, what is that that will be revealed in the last time or second coming of Christ? What is that you had received when Peter and Paul preach a salvation that will be received when Christ comes again?

Sorry brother, you had to read the Bible yourself to know the truth and don't get deceived by bearing no fruit. Christ will simply say, I never knew you.

Felix, let me ask you a question. Where did Jesus go when he died?

Hades.

(Acts 2:31) "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

 

[felix]

Mitspa believes in Eternal Security felix, if a 'believer' is 'cut off' then he was never truly in Christ to begin with; a false prophet if you will. He was not a believer to begin with.

But I am trying to make a point about what actually seperates a believer from the saving grace of God.

Mitspa, that is not what Eternal security is. When you accept a "believer" can be separated from the saving grace of God, then it is not Eternal security.

urk, I gave several examples esp., Ananias and Sapphira, Holy Spirit destroying the believer for defiling his body in sexual immorality.. why is that you never want to address these truth?

(1 Corinthians 6:18) Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
(1 Corinthians 6:19) Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit [who is] in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
(1 Corinthians 3:16) Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?
(1 Corinthians 3:17) If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.

Which believer is Paul taking about? How is that Holy Spirit is dwelling on someone who you call "not a believer to begin with"?

As i already mentioned, always back your statements with Scripture. This will show you how much you are being deceived.

 

[felix]

I do not know about what some would call OSAS, but a believer that trust in Gods Grace, "real grace" is the most secure being ever. Nothing can seperate us from His Love, if we have that love.

Can you please back your statement with Scripture and I will show you where you have error-ed.