Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[Rick W]

Christ died not for forgiveness of past sin but to put away the penalty of sin for those that would believe.

Now then, if I willfully sin I endanger my own faith with doubt. Therein lies the struggle. My faith can become weak enough not to support my belief and my works, if any, become less effective for their purpose. But our faith isn't perfect for if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains. And none of us here have that much faith anyway.
Keep in mind the parable of the sower. Seeds sown on stony ground or in thorns won't survive to bear fruit. However, there are those who are sown in good ground that grow to maturity and bear much fruit.

Salvation is not a mechanism, it's not mechanics. It's a fruitful relationship with our Lord and Savior. When dealing with relationships logic is generally turned upside-down. Following a methodic system to form/maintain relationships doesn't work. The heart doesn't follow any lists. We aren't robots.

 

[turnorburn]

While We Were Yet Sinners!
Romans 5:8

This is one of the great texts of the Bible, much like John 3:16. This morning, let's take the verse apart for a moment. Not to destroy it, but to better understand it today.

1. But God

2. Commendeth his love toward us

3. In that while we were yet sinners

4. Christ died for us

I. The Lord Who Was Concerned: "But God ..."

(EPH 2:4) "BUT GOD, WHO IS RICH IN MERCY, FOR HIS GREAT LOVE WHEREWITH HE LOVED US,"

A. We were unlovely BUT GOD loved us anyway.

1. I am thankful that God didn't wait on us to make ourselves presentable.

2. That would never have happened.

3. But God loved us anyway.

B. We were ungodly BUT GOD desired to put us in the family of God.

C. We were unspiritual BUT GOD sent His Holy Spirit that we might be born again and know the things of God.

D. We were unthankful BUT GOD wanted to give us everlasting life, a home in heaven, direction on earth, peace of heart and mind, and strength for living!

1. This is so much like God and so unlike mankind.

2. If someone doesn't respond to us in a proper and thankful manner, we get indignant.

3. "Well, if that's the way you are going to be, forget it!"

4. But God is concerned for us even when we are unconcerned about Him.

I. The Lord Who Was Concerned: "But God ..."

II. The Love That Was Commended: "But God commendeth his love toward us ..."

(1 JOHN 3:16) "HEREBY PERCEIVE WE THE LOVE OF GOD, BECAUSE HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US: AND WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN."

(JOHN 15:13) "GREATER LOVE HATH NO MAN THAN THIS, THAT A MAN LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS."

A. It was the love of a Creator for His creation.

1. We are His creation.

2. We are not something that He will just cast aside.

B. It was the love of a Potter for His pottery.

1. Jeremiah tells us how that the potter reworked and reshaped the clay.

2. Instead of discarding us, He continue to work with us to make us into something usable.

C. It was the love of a Shepherd for His lost sheep.

1. The Word of God describes our relationship with Him as one of a sheep to its Shepherd.

2. He came to seek and to save the lost sheep.

3. Everything He did, He did to protect and provide for us...He laid down His life for the sheep.

(JOHN 10:11) "I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD: THE GOOD SHEPHERD GIVETH HIS LIFE FOR THE SHEEP."

THE SONG WRITER PUT IT LIKE THIS: "I AM SO GLAD THAT OUR FATHER IN HEAV'N, TELLS OF HIS LOVE IN THE BOOK HE HAS GIV'N; WONDERFUL THINGS IN THE BIBLE I SEE -- THIS IS THE DEAREST THAT JESUS LOVES ME."

ANOTHER WRITES: "I STAND AMAZED IN THE PRESENCE OF JESUS THE NAZARENE, AND WONDER HOW HE COULD LOVE ME, A SINNER, CONDEMNED, UNCLEAN. HOW MARVELOUS! HOW WONDERFUL! AND MY SONG SHALL EVER BE: HOW MARVELOUS! HOW WONDERFUL! IS MY SAVIOR'S LOVE FOR ME!"

I. The Lord Who Was Concerned: "But God ..."

II. The Love That Was Commended: "But God commendeth his love toward us ..."

III. The Lost (People) Who Were Cherished: "But God commendeth his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners ..."

(MAT 9:13B) "... FOR I AM NOT COME TO CALL THE RIGHTEOUS, BUT SINNERS TO REPENTANCE."

(1 TIM 1:15) "THIS IS A FAITHFUL SAYING, AND WORTHY OF ALL ACCEPTATION, THAT CHRIST JESUS CAME INTO THE WORLD TO SAVE SINNERS; OF WHOM I AM CHIEF."

turnorburn

Amen!

 

[XTruth]

So why did Christ have to die for us when we were yet sinners, if He wanted us to have eternal life? ....Oh yeah, because we were sinners. If you think you can still be a sinner and have abiding life in you, then you are a liar (1 JN.1:5-6; 2:3-6; 3:5-10). IF SINNERS CAN ENTER THE NARROW GATE, THEN THE GATE IS NO LONGER NARROW; NOR THE ROAD LEADING THROUGH IT.


MAYBE YOU WILL ANSWER THIS QUESTION?
Simple question that I asked. Doesn't take a long post or any research from a seasoned Christian.
"Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" Which is anything sexual outside the covenant of marriage between 1 man and 1 woman.
The Scriptures posted a few post back are clear, NO ONE who does these things will inherit the kingdom of God.

ATTENTION ANY WHO BELIEVE OSAS
Can any/ will any of you answer this question? "Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" And we all know these Christians exist.

 

[Rick W]

Xtruth,
Your question was already answered but that answer it seems is unacceptable.

 

[XTruth]

Xtruth,
Your question was already answered but that answer it seems is unacceptable.

I apologize, I did not see an answer to the question of, "Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?"

Can you do me the favor of copy and pasting it here so I won't miss it again...I just can't find that answer anywhere.

 

[Rick W]

Second post from the top of the previous page.

 

[XTruth]

Second post from the top of this page.

This is your answer????................
-------------------------------------------------------------

First of all those verses don't describe a Christian but an unbeliever.
If a professing Christian demonstrates said description then his profession is a lie and the truth is definitely not in him. Never was.

If you care to shorten the question to, "Do you not believe a Christian can fall into condemnation by sin?" then we have something to discuss. Thing is we already have.
The parable of the sower. Matt 13:3-8

If those whose seed fell on good ground can fall back into condemnation then the parable is useless and makes no sense. Therefore one must conclude the seed sown in good ground bears fruit and is not condemned to wither or be choked as the other seed.

The other seed lost their faith, belief or both. That did not make null and void the divine act Christ did on the cross, defeating the law of sin and death. Nor can it.

His sacrifice is not simply forgiveness as in "forgiveness of past sin". It's not atonement but complete payment due for all sin if one would believe. There is no longer any condemnation, it's gone, paid in full, no deposit, no return, no pay back ... it's not a loan but a free gift offered to all who would turn their heart in repentance to believe God, not just believe in God but believe the promise He made to bring in a new covenant.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

"their iniquities will I remember no more."


Again:
The divine act of the Lamb of God
Belief that the Christ has indeed come and fulfilled the promise made.
Faith that we too share in His death, His burial and His resurrection unto eternal life.
Works that testify of our faith among the brethren and the world in general.

Works does not produce faith, belief or salvation but is a product of the faith, the belief and saving grace of our Lord and Savior.
Can we lose faith? Can we lose our belief? Can we wither when the sun comes up or can we be choked by thorns? If not sown in good ground you bet.

Did Peter after denying Christ not once, not twice but three times ask Christ forgiveness? What did Peter do? He showed his love for Jesus with so much vigor as to have walked on water. What a testimony of love that would have been to witness!

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


This is where legalism and the love of Christ part company. For there is no greater commandment given than to love thy God with all your heart and soul and to love thy neighbor as thyself. Nowhere in those two greatest of commandments is anything else except love and the reconciliation of God and man through the same. Not of works, not of the law but by the heart you shall know Him, be with Him and be adopted into the family of God with the rights of inheritance befitting the sons of God. Amen.

---------------------------------------

XTruth replied:
I've already addressed most of that distraction at some point. All I want is a yes or no answer to the question, "Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?"
Elaborate your answer if you want, but begin it with a simple YES OR NO. It is an easy question.
Thank you

 

[Rick W]

The question can't be answered with a simple yes or no. Sorry.

 

[XTruth]

The question can't be answered with a simple yes or no. Sorry.

The question seems fair and simple..............
"Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?"

Let's try another. Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they are having premarital sex and die in that sin?

 

[Cornelius]

Christ died not for forgiveness of past sin but to put away the penalty of sin for those that would believe.

Now then, if I willfully sin I endanger my own faith with doubt.

1)So what is the danger then , what can happen to my faith if I willfully sin?
2) I still want to know , just a simple yes or no, if Jesus died for my willful sin ?

 

[Rick W]

You fellows want a legalistic answer to a question framed by legalism.
Salvation is not a legalistic issue. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. It isn't going to work.

Legalism disregards the relationship I've been trying so hard to convey.

Did peter lose his salvation when he denied Christ? Remember, he never asked forgiveness.

 

[Cornelius]

You fellows want a legalistic answer to a question framed by legalism.
Salvation is not a legalistic issue. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. It isn't going to work.

Legalism disregards the relationship I've been trying so hard to convey.

Did peter lose his salvation when he denied Christ? Remember, he never asked forgiveness.

No Rick, I just want you to agree with Hebrews 10. The simple yes or no answer is given here:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

So the simple answer is : No

 

[Cornelius]

You fellows want a legalistic answer to a question framed by legalism.
Salvation is not a legalistic issue. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. It isn't going to work.

Legalism disregards the relationship I've been trying so hard to convey.

Did peter lose his salvation when he denied Christ? Remember, he never asked forgiveness.

Its not being legalistic if we agree with the Bible ,Rick. The Word goes against our flesh and it is sometimes difficult to agree with it, because the Bible brings severe consequences if we do not obey it. If we continue to willingly live in sin, there is no forgiveness , but Hebrews tells us we can be certain that judgment will follow .

Peter did not sin willfully, he stumbled because he was trusting in his flesh. Jesus wanted him to see that , that is wrong.We know that he did not sin willfully because he only remembered the words of Jesus AFTER he heard the cock crow.He certainly did not plan to go an deny Jesus, because in fact we also know that he told Jesus that he will die with him.(not betray him)

Mat 26:75 And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

 

[Rick W]

You fellows want a legalistic answer to a question framed by legalism.
Salvation is not a legalistic issue. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. It isn't going to work.

Legalism disregards the relationship I've been trying so hard to convey.

Did peter lose his salvation when he denied Christ? Remember, he never asked forgiveness.

No Rick, I just want you to agree with Hebrews 10. The simple yes or no answer is given here:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

So the simple answer is : No

Read on to get what is being talked about here.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

who hath counted the blood of the covenant ... an unholy thing

Apostasy
The willful rejection of the truth he received.

And before the verses you cite...

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.



He, "who hath trodden under foot the Son of God", the apostate, has turned his back on those gathered together for encouragement, collective strength. He left the assembly, the congregation. He discarded "the Son of God".

 

[Rick W]

"Peter did not sin willfully, he stumbled because he was trusting in his flesh."

 

[Good News Brown]

You fellows want a legalistic answer to a question framed by legalism.
Salvation is not a legalistic issue. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. It isn't going to work.

Legalism disregards the relationship I've been trying so hard to convey.

Did peter lose his salvation when he denied Christ? Remember, he never asked forgiveness.

Its not being legalistic if we agree with the Bible ,Rick. The Word goes against our flesh and it is sometimes difficult to agree with it, because the Bible brings severe consequences if we do not obey it. If we continue to willingly live in sin, there is no forgiveness , but Hebrews tells us we can be certain that judgment will follow .

Peter did not sin willfully, he stumbled because he was trusting in his flesh. Jesus wanted him to see that , that is wrong.We know that he did not sin willfully because he only remembered the words of Jesus AFTER he heard the cock crow.He certainly did not plan to go an deny Jesus, because in fact we also know that he told Jesus that he will die with him.(not betray him)

Mat 26:75 And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Peter sinned by denying Jesus. The fact that he wept bitterly doesn't necessarily mean that this was the point where he turned again to where he would strengthen his brethren. To say his sin wasn't willful would be questionable in that he was not among those who initially sought the body of Jesus in the sepulchre, he certainly didn't go back to make a proclamation that he was in fact one of the disciples, and as the other disciples, didn't believe the report of His return. Basically, he was one of the scattered sheep that Jesus went after as a shepherd will do with a wondering sheep that won't come back otherwise. Had Jesus not gone after them (with His reappearing), Peter probably would have kept on fishing, thus keeping the denial statement going.

 

[Rick W]

Ah, the Good Shepard. His sheep go astray and He gathers them back into the flock.

Amen!

 

[Cornelius]

[quote="Rick W":1k1uds8z]You fellows want a legalistic answer to a question framed by legalism.
Salvation is not a legalistic issue. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. It isn't going to work.

Legalism disregards the relationship I've been trying so hard to convey.

Did peter lose his salvation when he denied Christ? Remember, he never asked forgiveness.

No Rick, I just want you to agree with Hebrews 10. The simple yes or no answer is given here:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

So the simple answer is : No

Read on to get what is being talked about here.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

who hath counted the blood of the covenant ... an unholy thing

Apostasy
The willful rejection of the truth he received.

And before the verses you cite...

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.



He, "who hath trodden under foot the Son of God", the apostate, has turned his back on those gathered together for encouragement, collective strength. He left the assembly, the congregation. He discarded "the Son of God".[/quote:1k1uds8z]

Yes Rick, but we both know that all the other verses does not change the meaning of verse 25

It still says, that willing sin will not be forgiven because it has no sacrifice.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[MarkT]

Simple question that I asked. Doesn't take a long post or any research from a seasoned Christian.
"Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" Which is anything sexual outside the covenant of marriage between 1 man and 1 woman.
The Scriptures posted a few post back are clear, NO ONE who does these things will inherit the kingdom of God.

ATTENTION ANY WHO BELIEVE OSAS
Can any/ will any of you answer this question? "Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" And we all know these Christians exist.

I would argue that it shouldn't be if the Spirit of God dwells in him. Is something black if it is white? It seems to be the form of your question.

Our conscience would convict us. This is why I ask if there is immorality among the OSAS people? Why are you beating up on them? The faithful and wise steward doesn't beat the menservants and the maidservants of his Master's household. Luke 12:42-48.

 

[Cornelius]

Simple question that I asked. Doesn't take a long post or any research from a seasoned Christian.
"Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" Which is anything sexual outside the covenant of marriage between 1 man and 1 woman.
The Scriptures posted a few post back are clear, NO ONE who does these things will inherit the kingdom of God.

ATTENTION ANY WHO BELIEVE OSAS
Can any/ will any of you answer this question? "Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" And we all know these Christians exist.

I would argue that it shouldn't be if the Spirit of God dwells in him. Is something black if it is white? It seems to be the form of your question.

Our conscience would convict us. This is why I ask if there is immorality among the OSAS people? Why are you beating up on them? The faithful and wise steward doesn't beat the menservants and the maidservants of his Master's household. Luke 12:42-48.

I have never seen the correction of a doctrine or the teaching of the truth as "beating up" of anybody. If that were the case, then we should all just leave each other alone and pray for the best. But we are not told to do that, are we?

Paul told Timothy to "command and teach" (a bit stronger than just teach)


1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

Paul corrected the Galatians in a very strong way for their error:Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you........

If we do not love, we will not correct. I am not seeing anybody being beaten up here.But I see a lot of love and care go into some posts, with a lot of work and scripture quotes that takes up the time of the poster, because as you can see in the posts of X-truth , he is not just posting, but doing a full back-up of scripture. This takes A LOT of time. Only somebody who actually cares about the reader, will take all this trouble.

in Christ
C