Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[Rick W]

Christ didn't die just to forgive our past sin. He died 2000 years ago before we were born.
He died in our place for the condemnation of sin. He paid the price for our sin in full, once and for all, for all those that would believe.

Did He die for our willful sin as well ?

Christ's divine sacrifice - Belief - Faith - Works

Willful sin testifies against your faith. His work and glory remain true. He died to remove the condemnation for those who would believe.

 

[Vic C.]

Some may view the bible as a book of do's and don't's. It isn't. It's not about our pursuit of God at all but a testimony of God's pursuit of man. Or more accurately the pursuit of man's heart, not his achievements. We are bought at a price we cannot repay.

We al should write that simple truth on our hearts. Thank Rick.

... and thanks Lee, for posting Spurgeon. He certainly has a "gift" for putting it all into perspective.

 

[XTruth]

Some may view the bible as a book of do's and don't's. It isn't. It's not about our pursuit of God at all but a testimony of God's pursuit of man. Or more accurately the pursuit of man's heart, not his achievements. We are bought at a price we cannot repay.

We al should write that simple truth on our hearts. Thank Rick.

... and thanks Lee, for posting Spurgeon. He certainly has a "gift" for putting it all into perspective.

No, but thanks. I'd rather write the Word of God on my heart. I believe perspective is a little more clear that way.

Take for instance final perseverance; some men say, "If we continue in faith, and if we continue in holiness, we shall certainly be saved at last." Do you not see at once that this is legalityâ€â€that this is hanging our salvation upon our workâ€â€that this is making our eternal life to depend on something we do?

If you need any argument upon this point, I refer you to our great apostle Paul, who so constantly combats the idea that works and grace can ever be united together, for he argues, "If it be of grace, then it is no more of works otherwise grace were no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more of grace, otherwise work is no more work."

Actually, exhortations to continue in faith and grace comes from the Word of God, not from uninspired men writing of their own accord. If this were impossible, then such statements would be meaningless. And who else said this, but Paul himself.
"Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God(Acts 13:43)."
"22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22)."
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (Gal.1:6)."
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.(Gal.5:4)."
"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; (Heb.12:15)."

 

[XTruth]

The problem I have with a works-centered plan of salvation is the pride involved when declaring one is righteous and another is not based on what is or is not done. Hate is not the opposite of charity, it is pride.
I understand about following Christ. It's called surrender pure and simple. I must become less of myself and more of Him. I can't do it but He can. I surrender.
I haven't the strength nor the wisdom but He does. I'm not faithful, but He is. I'm not worthy , never will be therefore He comes to us with grace and mercy. It's not about me Xtruth, never will be.

Right, this is initial salvation. When we were yet sinners and wretched. There was nothing we could do to be righteous and clean of ourselves.

We will know the tree by it's fruit, whether it is of the kingdom of God or of the kingdom of this world. How do I "declare" one is unrighteous when they are openly sleeping w/ their girlfriend/boyfriend, yet claim to have abiding life in them???

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (1 Jn.1:6)."

Rom.1:29-32
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Cor.6:9-10
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal.5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph.5:3-7
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Gal.6:7-8
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is only the example of being sexually immoral, which many Christians justify for themselves. If someone is in sin, then they have fallen into condemnation. Do you not believe a Christian can fall into condemnation by sin, even after reading these verses that were written for the instruction of the Christian?

I believe I've been fairly good about answering your questions. Could you please reply to this one?

Thank you

 

[turnorburn]

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him

This is an astounding statement: "Enoch," a sinful man like you and me, "walked with God!" And "he had this testimony, that he pleased God." In his daily life Enoch walked in company with the living God, living in God's presence as his constant Friend, IN WHOM HE CONFIDED AND BY WHOM HE WAS LOVED. What kind of man was Enoch? What kind of life did he live? The answer is clear: Enoch was a man of faith; and he lived a life of faith. He was not a sinless man. He did not live a higher life, a deeper life, or a holier life than anyone else who lives by faith. IT WAS NOT ENOCH'S CONDUCT, HIS PERSONALITY, OR HIS DISPOSITION THAT PLEASED GOD, BUT HIS FAITH IN CHRIST (Heb. 11:5-6).

http://grace-for-today.com/115.htm

 

[XTruth]

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him

This is an astounding statement: "Enoch," a sinful man like you and me, "walked with God!" And "he had this testimony, that he pleased God." In his daily life Enoch walked in company with the living God, living in God's presence as his constant Friend, IN WHOM HE CONFIDED AND BY WHOM HE WAS LOVED. What kind of man was Enoch? What kind of life did he live? The answer is clear: Enoch was a man of faith; and he lived a life of faith. He was not a sinless man. He did not live a higher life, a deeper life, or a holier life than anyone else who lives by faith. IT WAS NOT ENOCH'S CONDUCT, HIS PERSONALITY, OR HIS DISPOSITION THAT PLEASED GOD, BUT HIS FAITH IN CHRIST (Heb. 11:5-6).

http://grace-for-today.com/115.htm

Okay, I think I see now, so works has nothing to do with faith at all. So I guess this view won't contradict any Scripture I may come across ...right?

 

[turnorburn]

That depends on your choices what do you want to do?

turnorburn

 

[Rick W]

Without faith there are no works. But works does not mean faith.

 

[XTruth]

That depends on your choices what do you want to do?

turnorburn

Not sure what you're saying

 

[XTruth]

Without faith there are no works. But works does not mean faith.

Not sure I believe you or even fully understand what this means, but maybe you can show me some Scripture to help me understand what you are saying.

But before we get side tracked, please, answer my twice asked question, making this 3 times....please.

The problem I have with a works-centered plan of salvation is the pride involved when declaring one is righteous and another is not based on what is or is not done. Hate is not the opposite of charity, it is pride.
I understand about following Christ. It's called surrender pure and simple. I must become less of myself and more of Him. I can't do it but He can. I surrender.
I haven't the strength nor the wisdom but He does. I'm not faithful, but He is. I'm not worthy , never will be therefore He comes to us with grace and mercy. It's not about me Xtruth, never will be.

Right, this is initial salvation. When we were yet sinners and wretched. There was nothing we could do to be righteous and clean of ourselves.

We will know the tree by it's fruit, whether it is of the kingdom of God or of the kingdom of this world. How do I "declare" one is unrighteous when they are openly sleeping w/ their girlfriend/boyfriend, yet claim to have abiding life in them???

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (1 Jn.1:6)."

Rom.1:29-32
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Cor.6:9-10
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal.5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph.5:3-7
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Gal.6:7-8
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is only the example of being sexually immoral, which many Christians justify for themselves. If someone is in sin, then they have fallen into condemnation. Do you not believe a Christian can fall into condemnation by sin, even after reading these verses that were written for the instruction of the Christian?

I believe I've been fairly good about answering your questions. Could you please reply to this one?

Thank you

 

[Rick W]

Got home a short time ago and had some other issues to take care of here with more priority than drafting/researching a post.
Hang in there. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[Rick W]

"Do you not believe a Christian can fall into condemnation by sin, even after reading these verses that were written for the instruction of the Christian?"

First of all those verses don't describe a Christian but an unbeliever.
If a professing Christian demonstrates said description then his profession is a lie and the truth is definitely not in him. Never was.

If you care to shorten the question to, "Do you not believe a Christian can fall into condemnation by sin?" then we have something to discuss. Thing is we already have.
The parable of the sower. Matt 13:3-8

If those whose seed fell on good ground can fall back into condemnation then the parable is useless and makes no sense. Therefore one must conclude the seed sown in good ground bears fruit and is not condemned to wither or be choked as the other seed.

The other seed lost their faith, belief or both. That did not make null and void the divine act Christ did on the cross, defeating the law of sin and death. Nor can it.

His sacrifice is not simply forgiveness as in "forgiveness of past sin". It's not atonement but complete payment due for all sin if one would believe. There is no longer any condemnation, it's gone, paid in full, no deposit, no return, no pay back ... it's not a loan but a free gift offered to all who would turn their heart in repentance to believe God, not just believe in God but believe the promise He made to bring in a new covenant.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

"their iniquities will I remember no more."


Again:
The divine act of the Lamb of God
Belief that the Christ has indeed come and fulfilled the promise made.
Faith that we too share in His death, His burial and His resurrection unto eternal life.
Works that testify of our faith among the brethren and the world in general.

Works does not produce faith, belief or salvation but is a product of the faith, the belief and saving grace of our Lord and Savior.
Can we lose faith? Can we lose our belief? Can we wither when the sun comes up or can we be choked by thorns? If not sown in good ground you bet.

Did Peter after denying Christ not once, not twice but three times ask Christ forgiveness? What did Peter do? He showed his love for Jesus with so much vigor as to have walked on water. What a testimony of love that would have been to witness!

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


This is where legalism and the love of Christ part company. For there is no greater commandment given than to love thy God with all your heart and soul and to love thy neighbor as thyself. Nowhere in those two greatest of commandments is anything else except love and the reconciliation of God and man through the same. Not of works, not of the law but by the heart you shall know Him, be with Him and be adopted into the family of God with the rights of inheritance befitting the sons of God. Amen.



I've said my peace.
Please continue to keep things civil.
Thank you.

 

[Good News Brown]

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen Rick. If somehow we were the exception (the one thing that can separate us), I think we would all be in trouble.

Luke 22:31-34 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, That he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren". And he said, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death". He said, "I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me".

 

[francisdesales]

[quote="Rick W":3fjhgfit]Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen Rick. If somehow we were the exception (the one thing that can separate us), I think we would all be in trouble.[/quote:3fjhgfit]

I think you are forgeting we are now a new creation. We are not alone. We now have a new principle, a new hope, a new power within us. But even all of that can be cast aside.

Regards

 

[XTruth]

Got home a short time ago and had some other issues to take care of here with more priority than drafting/researching a post.
Hang in there. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.

Simple question that I asked. Doesn't take a long post or any research from a seasoned Christian.
"Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" Which is anything sexual outside the covenant of marriage between 1 man and 1 woman.
The Scriptures posted a few post back are clear, NO ONE who does these things will inherit the kingdom of God.

ATTENTION ANY WHO BELIEVE OSAS
Can any/ will any of you answer this question? "Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" And we all know these Christians exist.

 

[XTruth]

"Do you not believe a Christian can fall into condemnation by sin, even after reading these verses that were written for the instruction of the Christian?"

First of all those verses don't describe a Christian but an unbeliever.
If a professing Christian demonstrates said description then his profession is a lie and the truth is definitely not in him. Never was.

"...........to be delayed............"

I've said my peace.
Please continue to keep things civil.
Thank you.

Those verses only describe unbelievers??? What bubble do you live in (not trying to sound rude, but you have to understand what I mean by that). Many unbelievers and believers alike do those things, which is the purpose of Paul warning Christians that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This is Paul warning the BELIEVERS that unforfeitable innocence is not true...DO NOT BE DECEIVED!


ATTENTION ANY WHO BELIEVE OSAS
Can any/ will any of you answer this question? "Can a Christian inherit the kingdom of God if they fall to the lusts of the flesh?" And we all know these Christians exist.

 

[turnorburn]

A quick question, are you afraid of losing your salvation? are you saved?
Questions questions.. not trying to stir it up understand..

turnorburn

 

[Good News Brown]

[quote="Rick W":1s1rzbxx]Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen Rick. If somehow we were the exception (the one thing that can separate us), I think we would all be in trouble.

I think you are forgeting we are now a new creation. We are not alone. We now have a new principle, a new hope, a new power within us. But even all of that can be cast aside.

Regards[/quote:1s1rzbxx]
I'm not sure what you mean. I referenced Jesus' statement to Peter in which He stated that He prayed for Him that his faith not fail him. Today, we have Jesus interceding for us that our faith not fail. When we pray according to God's will, we know the request will be granted 1 John 5:14-15. If Jesus Himself is interceding for us, we can be sure that His requests are granted.

 

[francisdesales]

I'm not sure what you mean. I referenced Jesus' statement to Peter in which He stated that He prayed for Him that his faith not fail him. Today, we have Jesus interceding for us that our faith not fail. When we pray according to God's will, we know the request will be granted 1 John 5:14-15. If Jesus Himself is interceding for us, we can be sure that His requests are granted.

Yes, and God desires all men to be saved.

I have no doubt Christ intercedes for us. Even today. He abides in us and we have a hope that was not there before. We know this hope will be fulfilled and realized. But we know from experience that some choose to return to the ways of their former lives, slavery to sin. This "return" means that at one time, they HAD escaped the pollutions of the world - sin - which can ONLY be done by being saved in the first place. It is clear that our free will to reject God is not completely ignored, even upon our illumination and conversion.

Persevere until the end, my brother. Do not be fooled by Satan, who is always prowling around, looking for easy prey, those not watchful.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

[quote="Rick W":3si16v8d]

Christ didn't die just to forgive our past sin. He died 2000 years ago before we were born.
He died in our place for the condemnation of sin. He paid the price for our sin in full, once and for all, for all those that would believe.

Did He die for our willful sin as well ?

Christ's divine sacrifice - Belief - Faith - Works

Willful sin testifies against your faith. His work and glory remain true. He died to remove the condemnation for those who would believe.[/quote:3si16v8d]

Rick I am a bit slow here, because I cannot deduct from your answer if you say Jesus died for our willing sin or not.

Could you just make it a simple yes or no perhaps? Thanks C