Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[XTruth]

[quote="Rick W":1bd78yxh]What's the difference of those under the law in the OT and those under a works-centered plan of salvation as you advocate?

As much as I enjoy constantly answering your questions, and completely proving what I've said biblically, just to have you ignore the proof from the Bible and come back at me with another question, how about you tell me how 'm wrong in my last responses to you, since it is obvious you think so. I've used Scripture w/ them all, so tell me how I've misinterpreted the clear meaning of those Scriptures in response to you, and then I will start answering your questions some more.

"how about you tell me how 'm wrong in my last responses to you"

OK, fair enough. [/quote:1bd78yxh]
Since you're keeping a diary of my entries...sure, fair enough. I've never had a fan before.
Just to keep things organized, I'll respond in separate posts. I've almost got the quoting function down, but not all the way w/ quotes in quotes. k ?

 

[XTruth]

Okay, I do advocate a works-centered doctrine...not to be saved from past sins, but to remain justified by my works of obedience to the gospel commands so that I won't be condemned by sin again. It is only by Christ that we can be justified (made innocent). After that, it is us who must continue to follow Christ in order to stay on the narrow path, which is only accomplished by following His ways, words, sayings, authority, and commandments. Do you see that it is works that justifies, and not faith alone?

And? I don't understand the confusion . My works DO NOT justify me from my sins...this is true and what is plainly stated; unless my post is being interpreted symbolically or figuratively. I assure you, it is most certainly to be taken literal.

you added color to the last phrase...why? I was actually quoting Scripture. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (Jas.2:24)."

 

[XTruth]

The work I and others believe in is the work of obedience to the gospel program which keeps us from future sin and thereby keeps us justified (innocent).

Where is boasting then? It is excluded.

3. Are you humble.

I am extremely humble. But be prepared to be called prideful and arrogant if you are bold with what the Word of God says. It has only happened to me from Christians...weird

And? I know these are my words....I also see that you have used color for the part where I said I was extremely humble. This is all true. Paul was also extremely humble, yet called out false teachers all the time, even by name. He even had the nerve to call out Peter, who walked with Jesus through His earthly ministry. What nerve! :o But he was humble, also.

 

[XTruth]

5. Do you recieve correction without getting angry.

Yes most the time, and sometimes I get angry at injustice from authorities who correct unjustly, but I sin not (Eph.4:26).

Because I happen to claim to be obedient to the gospel of God and of Christ, you have some kind of problem with this? I know you have said to be obedient to the gospel, why then is it so offensive to you that I claim to do so?

 

[Rick W]

The problem I have with a works-centered plan of salvation is the pride involved when declaring one is righteous and another is not based on what is or is not done. Hate is not the opposite of charity, it is pride.
I understand about following Christ. It's called surrender pure and simple. I must become less of myself and more of Him. I can't do it but He can. I surrender.
I haven't the strength nor the wisdom but He does. I'm not faithful, but He is. I'm not worthy , never will be therefore He comes to us with grace and mercy. It's not about me Xtruth, never will be.

 

[turnorburn]

I was brout up to believe the Gospel Of Jesus Christ was supposed to be easy to understand.

maybe
i'm old fashion but way back then you either belived or you didn't, then at the judgment seat of Christ you would pony up your story and compaqre it to the one Jesus had. If he told you he didn't know you,, what then??

turnorburn

 

[shad]

The problem I have with a works-centered plan of salvation is the pride involved when declaring one is righteous and another is not based on what is or is not done. Hate is not the opposite of charity, it is pride.
I understand about following Christ. It's called surrender pure and simple. I must become less of myself and more of Him. I can't do it but He can. I surrender.
I haven't the strength nor the wisdom but He does. I'm not faithful, but He is. I'm not worthy , never will be therefore He comes to us with grace and mercy. It's not about me Xtruth, never will be.

Rick,

Christians are supposed to encourage each other to be faithful to Jesus, you seem to oppose it by saying they have pride because they are doing their best to be faithful to Jesus? The Holy Spirit will help those who are striving to be faithful to Him.

 

[Rick W]

Christians are supposed to encourage each other to be faithful to Jesus...

I don't disagree with that shad but I don't have to submit a resume to gain salvation either. One simply cannot earn their way to heaven. Once it becomes based on works the focus of a relationship with Him becomes lost because that focus is directed upon the faithfulness of and trust in self.

Some may view the bible as a book of do's and don't's. It isn't. It's not about our pursuit of God at all but a testimony of God's pursuit of man. Or more accurately the pursuit of man's heart, not his achievements. We are bought at a price we cannot repay.

The Pharisees did everything by the book, literally. Where did they go wrong?

Christians are supposed to encourage each other to be faithful to Jesus...

Again, I agree. Please exercise one's liberty to attend the church of one's choice. No man is an island.

 

[turnorburn]

pharisee, definiton: A Whitewaashed Seplchure lovely to look at from the outside but full
of putrifying flesh...

trnorburn

,

 

[mutzrein]

I haven't checked back through this entire thread but has anyone mentioned the parable of the talents? Where do you see this with respect to losing (or not) your salvation?

 

[Cornelius]

A question to the eternally secure believers:

Q: Will the Christians who belong to the Christian Swingers Club, go to heaven. I could not believe there were such a thing , but it it exists.They have managed to get around the Word, by claiming that David and Solomon had many wives and concubines and God did not mind it. So now they too are swinging.
Here is a quote from a swingers discussion group board that reflects the general believe system amongst the average Christian who believe they can just sin and ask forgiveness.(Free ticket)

But heres the graet thing about being a Christian, all you have to do is repent(be truly sorry for what you did) and you get forgiveness.

They really think repentance means : Being truly sorry.



Q: Will the openly gay pastor/minister and his lover go to heaven?

 

[Joe67]

Cornelius,

Conditionalism is in the holy place of the kingdom of God. It is like 12 loaves of shewbread on a gold covered table.

OSAS is also in the holy place of the kingdom of God. It is like the burning of olive oil in a 7 branched candlestick.

Both "places" are symbolic of the revelation in understanding of the things previously symbolized by the holy Spirit concerning the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.

Access to the most holy place (the secret place of the most high God) is only given through the suffering of Jesus being conformed on us, which is symbolized by the apothecary beaten very small and burnt on the golden altar so only a glowing coal remains; a brand plucked from the burnings. This gift of suffering in the image of Jesus is only given to those who have been called and then chosen for the priestly ministry under Jesus. Many are called to the common salvation, but few are chosen for the eternal priesthood under Jesus, the high priest. The most holy place of the most high God is not entered without blood and while being covered with a cloud of incense, and he must be wearing the white linen of he common priest. All of these symbolize the truth of God as it is in Jesus of Nazareth.

When this revelation comes, it cannot be written in a book but the testator will testify again before many peoples, nations, tongues and rulers. The testator will have sweetness in his mouth but bitterness in his belly.

Joe

So, are you talking about new revelation, because I don't see any verses referenced to what you just composed. Can you back up the claim that two beliefs that totally contradict eachother are both in the holy place and accepted and approved by God?

XTruth,

I didn't mention any Scripture, but the format of the Sanctuary is found in Scripture. No, not a new prophetic or apostolic revelation.

There is a difference between testifying/witnessing and claiming. I was witnessing to a conviction that the Lord had brought to my heart and mind from Scripture and as illustrated from the form and functions of the material creation.

These two beliefs are not in total contradiction. There is a common quality that unites both. They do appear as opposite as Esau and Jacob. These two adverse brothers buried their father together.

All the creation multiplies by adverse qualities. Only opposites stay united. Similarities repel.

Joe

 

[XTruth]

The problem I have with a works-centered plan of salvation is the pride involved when declaring one is righteous and another is not based on what is or is not done. Hate is not the opposite of charity, it is pride.
I understand about following Christ. It's called surrender pure and simple. I must become less of myself and more of Him. I can't do it but He can. I surrender.
I haven't the strength nor the wisdom but He does. I'm not faithful, but He is. I'm not worthy , never will be therefore He comes to us with grace and mercy. It's not about me Xtruth, never will be.

Right, this is initial salvation. When we were yet sinners and wretched. There was nothing we could do to be righteous and clean of ourselves.

We will know the tree by it's fruit, whether it is of the kingdom of God or of the kingdom of this world. How do I "declare" one is unrighteous when they are openly sleeping w/ their girlfriend/boyfriend, yet claim to have abiding life in them???

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (1 Jn.1:6)."

Rom.1:29-32
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Cor.6:9-10
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal.5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph.5:3-7
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Gal.6:7-8
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is only the example of being sexually immoral, which many Christians justify for themselves. If someone is in sin, then they have fallen into condemnation. Do you not believe a Christian can fall into condemnation by sin, even after reading these verses that were written for the instruction of the Christian?

 

[XTruth]

Christians are supposed to encourage each other to be faithful to Jesus...

I don't disagree with that shad but I don't have to submit a resume to gain salvation either. One simply cannot earn their way to heaven. Once it becomes based on works the focus of a relationship with Him becomes lost because that focus is directed upon the faithfulness of and trust in self.

Some may view the bible as a book of do's and don't's. It isn't. It's not about our pursuit of God at all but a testimony of God's pursuit of man. Or more accurately the pursuit of man's heart, not his achievements. We are bought at a price we cannot repay.

The Pharisees did everything by the book, literally. Where did they go wrong?

Christians are supposed to encourage each other to be faithful to Jesus...

Again, I agree. Please exercise one's liberty to attend the church of one's choice. No man is an island.

I'm tempted like everyone else. Do I strive to fight that temptation that leads to sin that leads to spiritual death, by myself (Jas.1:13-15)? No, I rely on Christ and the Holy Spirit to strengthen me through it and pull me out alive.

The Pharisee's rejected Christ and relied on their own righteousness which is as filthy rags (Isa.64:6). Who on this board is guilty of this?

 

[XTruth]

pharisee, definiton: A Whitewaashed Seplchure lovely to look at from the outside but full
of putrifying flesh...

trnorburn

,

Thanks for the definition TorB.
Rick, Solo, Mondar, MarkT, etc., you accuse the brethren who believe we must be obedient to the gospel of Christ in order to be overcomers. You say we are as the Pharisees. No one has given a list of righteous works and activities they do. All have merely given the Word of God to prove their position. No one believes themselves to be righteous by what they've done. All believe Jesus made them righteous by their faith in His blood. You all accuse the brethren of being foolish, hypocrites, and vipers for saying one must continue in the righteousness of Christ (Jn.8:31, 51) in order to remain in the Vine (Jn.15:1-6). These are words our Lord has said to the Pharisees, you call us Pharisees, you must believe we too are hypocrites and vipers. This has been explained to you all many times....to show you the difference between us and the Pharisees. You still don't understand?

 

[Rick W]

"how about you tell me how 'm wrong in my last responses to you"

Moving on:

You still don't understand?

Christ didn't die just to forgive our past sin. He died 2000 years ago before we were born.
He died in our place for the condemnation of sin. He paid the price for our sin in full, once and for all, for all those that would believe.

 

[shad]

I don't disagree with that shad but I don't have to submit a resume to gain salvation either.

Why are you so concerned of losing salvation or not? Jesus is the one who judges who will be saved or not.

One simply cannot earn their way to heaven.

No one is saying that, friend.

Once it becomes based on works the focus of a relationship with Him becomes lost because that focus is directed upon the faithfulness of and trust in self.

I don't see any christians who are just focusing to earn salvation. It seems that you are confusing Paul's admonition of "work out your salvation"

Some may view the bible as a book of do's and don't's. It isn't.

No it is not all there is but there are many, many dos and don'ts.

It's not about our pursuit of God at all but a testimony of God's pursuit of man. Or more accurately the pursuit of man's heart, not his achievements. We are bought at a price we cannot repay.

We can not be too far from Jesus when we strive to be faithful to Jesus until the end.

The Pharisees did everything by the book, literally. Where did they go wrong?

Because they forgot God and strive to be faithful to Him. God is love and they forgot about love and living for themselves.

 

[Rick W]

His divine deed - belief - faith - works

His divine deed - He died to pay the price owed by condemnation.
Belief - One believes what He did on the cross.
Faith - One has faith it will be fulfilled.
Works - One's works testify of one's faith.

Without His divine deed belief is useless.
Without belief there can be no faith.
And without faith one's works are in vain.

His Divine act produces belief. Belief produces faith and faith produces the works.

 

[turnorburn]

Charles Spurgeon's thinking..

the kicking against the doctrine of election is a kicking against the gospel, because this doctrine is a first principle in the divine plan of mercy, and when rightly known, it prepares our minds to receive all the other doctrines. Or on the contrary, misunderstand this, and you are pretty sure to make mistakes about all the rest.

Take for instance final perseverance; some men say, "If we continue in faith, and if we continue in holiness, we shall certainly be saved at last." Do you not see at once that this is legalityâ€â€that this is hanging our salvation upon our workâ€â€that this is making our eternal life to depend on something we do?

If you need any argument upon this point, I refer you to our great apostle Paul, who so constantly combats the idea that works and grace can ever be united together, for he argues, "If it be of grace, then it is no more of works otherwise grace were no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more of grace, otherwise work is no more work."

turnorburn

 

[Cornelius]

Christ didn't die just to forgive our past sin. He died 2000 years ago before we were born.
He died in our place for the condemnation of sin. He paid the price for our sin in full, once and for all, for all those that would believe.

Did He die for our willful sin as well ?