Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[mondar]

So that passage doesn't only prove that Adam's salvation was lost for a time, but that all have already lost their salvation once before and are only regaining it when they come to Christ the first time.

XTruth, concerning your argument about Adam being saved before the fall, and then loosing his salvation...
I must admit that I sit here and wonder how you can think that is an argument that carries weight. I suspect as you read this, you even rare up ready to say how great of an argument you made concerning Adams fall. On the other hand, I sit here and feel astonishment that you would use the term "saved" with Adam in his Garden, prefall state. Let me try to explain.

First, Adam was not heaven bound when he was in the garden of Eden. Had Adam not fell into sin, he still would not go to heaven. Do you agree that you must die to go to heaven? Read Romans 5 again. If Adam does not sin, he does not suffer any physical death... right? If he does not die, can you remind me how he will go to heaven?

In a sense, in the garden Adam had eternal physical life, and eternal spiritual life and fellowship with God, but I would not call that saved. What was he saved from?

To equate what the man who is saved now with Adam's innocence is a tremendously wrong mistake. In salvation, we are not restored to the innocence and sinlessness of Adam. We are not again placed back in the garden of Eden in a state of innocence where we can fall. We are now far worse spiritually then Adam was in the Garden of Eden. We have a different nature. We still have the sin nature after salvation, but we sinners are merely pronounces innocent (justified) on the basis of faith alone. We do have the advantage of regeneration, and the indwelling of the Spirit, but we will never again be innocent as Adam was in the garden.

 

[Rick W]

If Adam was saved before the fall then what is it he was saved from?

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

Solo…
Agreed, for the most part. The language used “secured†is not agreed with. The Holy Spirit is a down payment, an earnest, first fruits of salvation, not something that guarantees salvation

I'm afraid that the Word of God disagrees with your assessment above.

2 Corinthians 1

12 For our boasting is this: the testimony of our conscience that we conducted ourselves in the world in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom but by the grace of God, and more abundantly toward you. 13 For we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end 14 (as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

15 And in this confidence I intended to come to you before, that you might have a second benefit 16 to pass by way of you to Macedonia, to come again from Macedonia to you, and be helped by you on my way to Judea. 17 Therefore, when I was planning this, did I do it lightly? Or the things I plan, do I plan according to the flesh, that with me there should be Yes, Yes, and No, No? 18 But as God is faithful, our word to you was not Yes and No. 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by usâ€â€by me, Silvanus, and Timothyâ€â€was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes. 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

The question is not whether one's salvation is assured, and accomplished solely by God who is Faithful as Paul says, but whether one is truly established in Christ.


2 Corinthians 5

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

In addressing the Resurrection to the church in Corinth, Paul is clear that the indwelling Holy Spirit is the guarantee of the "purchased possession", which is the Bodily Ressurection at the culmination of Redemptive history, ie-the Second Coming of Christ.

Paul teaches the saints in Ephesus of the great work of God in Election and Preservation of the saints.

Ephesians 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earthâ€â€in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here we have a glorious truth, that salvation, from beginning to end is accomplished by God and God alone, "to the praise of His Glory", with the Holy Spirit indeed being "the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession", ie-the Resurrection of the body at the Second Coming of Christ.

Paul goes on further in the second chapter to explain why man cannot claim any role in salvation, ie-"so that no man can boast".

through life no matter what a Christian does.

That is a caricature and mischaracterization of the doctrines of Election and Preservation of the saints, for in no way, shape or form do they mean or are said to mean that someone can make a profession of faith and then live any way they want.

That would make God a respecter of persons (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25; 1 Pt.1:17)

I'm afraid you have a misunderstanding of what "no respector of persons" means.

What it means is that God pays no attention to one's status, such as economic, political, etc.

For you see, all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, and all therefore, prior to regeneration are wicked sinners, the enemy of God, with no desire for God due to being their own god, ie-(the judge of right and wrong, good and evil as Satan promised Adam and Eve).

And all come into the kingdom the exact same way, being chosen by God before the creation of the world, regenerated by God from death to life in Christ.

Ephesians 2

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand

It is God who makes dead people alive, and keeps them to the very end, just as promised.

and a sinner Himself (Jas 2:9-10).

How?

The Holy Spirit can be taken away (Judg.16:20; 1 Sam.16:14; Ps.51:11).

I'm afraid you are confusing the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, which God, in His Providence empowers many to accomplish a specific purpose, even a snake or a donkey, with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit as promised in Ezekiel 36:

24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Notice exactly Who is doing all the work of Redemption.

As Jesus told NIc at night, "with man this is impossible".

Therefore, those who are depending on their own deeds, works, paticipation to be the ultimate reason for their salvation rather than trusting God exclusively, are building their house on shifting sand.

Jonah 2:9
"Salvation is of the LORD.â€Â

I also agree w/ francisdesales , except one thing that will help clear up a misunderstanding between you two. Rom.5:12-21 does teach us that all are born in sin, in a fallen state, condemned, b/c of the one sin of one man. That passage of verses also proves why John 3 says we must be spiritually born "again." To do something again means it's been done at least once before. While Adam was righteous, all were righteous while in his loins. When Adam sinned, all became unrighteous when he sinned. So that passage doesn't only prove that Adam's salvation was lost for a time, but that all have already lost their salvation once before and are only regaining it when they come to Christ the first time.

So, what exactly can cause the Elect to "lose" salvation?

It is also agreed that man must be born again to see eternal life, this is evident. What you fail to understand, Solo, is that being born of the Spirit is not comparable to being born of the flesh. Man doesn’t have physical life before conception. What I mean is that he isn’t dead and just awaiting life. Man’s spirit on the other hand is in existence before it has been given and promised eternal life at the rebirth. The spirit of man is in man his whole life, even though most spirits are not ever given life from the new birth (2 Cor.5:17-21; Eph.4:20-24; Col.3:5-10).

So what happens at the birth of a spirit since it has been in existence since conception from the reproduction process of the parents? Simple, all past sins have been taken away. Sin brings/ brings back the death penalty of the spirit (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; 34:7; Num.14:18; Job 10:14; Eze.18:4, 20; Jn.8:34; Rom.6:16, 23; 8:12-13; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-10; Jas.1:15; 1 Jn.3:4, 8-10; Rv.21:8, 27; 22:15; etc.). So with the past sins pardoned at repentance, the death penalty from the law of sin and death has no legal right to the spirit.

So, the Atonement of Christ only washed away your past sins, and made it possible for you to be justified in the eyes of God by your own works in keeping the Law.

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, BUT to those who live after the flesh, they either have, or bring back the death penalty.

Wrong, those who "live after the flesh" were never "born again", ie-regenerationed from above, in the first place.

See Ezekiel 36 above.

Death is what is owed to all who have unrepented sin.

Have you repented of all your sins? Are you now keeping the Law of God perfectly, without failure at any single point?

For when you stumble at one point, you are then guilty of ALL God's Law.

The spirit death leading to eternal death is what is referred to

I'm afraid that is nothing but a dogmatic assertion with no supporting evidence.

or else all would be justified at physical death

All of the Elect are.

thus the penalty would be paid and all would go to heaven.

That is only in the case one believes that the Atonement of Christ is applicable and efficatious for all humanity without exception.

Also, if physical death were the real penalty for sin, then no Christian would ever die physically with his sins being forgiven and not on his account anymore.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

The real key to all of this is what sins are forgiven. Commonsense says that only sins one has actually committed can be pardoned and forgiven.

I see, so you reject that there are sins of omission, and reject the very nature of sin, and it's utter corruption of humanity.

Sin is not limited to one's acts of commission at all. Sin is anything that is not in the Perfect Will of God, which is the standard.

Unless you meet the Glory of God, perfectly, you are in sin.

Sin is a state of being, not simply an act of commission.

The Word confirms this (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9).

No, you simply misunderstand what the Word of God actually teaches.

So with only past sins being forgiven, how can future sin be automatically atoned for….it isn’t.

Which of your sins were in the future when Christ was Crucified?

Are you saying that Christ is crucified all over again every time you sin so as to make Atonement for your sins?

The last thing not agreed with is that salvation is only a work of God.

If it is not true, then YOU are ultimately your own savior, for your salvation ultimately is dependent on what YOU do, rather than in what Christ has already done.

If this were true, then all would be saved since God desires for all of us to be saved (1 Tim.2:4; 2 Pt.3:9; Rev.22:17).

I submit that you misunderstand what is meant by "God desires all to be saved".

The Atonement of Christ is not applied to all humanity without exception, but is effectual for the Elect exclusively.

Paul anticipates your objection that God is unrighteous for using His Sovereign Free Will to have mercy on whom He will have mercy and to harden whom He hardens, in Romans 9

Romans 9

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.†8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.â€Â[c]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€Â[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€Â[e]

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.â€Â[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.â€Â[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Therefore, my question to you is this:

Is God unrighteous for extending Mercy to whom He chooses?

Is God unrighteous to punish unrepentant sinners?

If man has no part in salvation, then God is a respecter of persons, or not doing His job in order to assure salvation for everyone. Man does have his own responsibility to play in order to meet the conditions of salvation and to continue meeting them everyday (pick up cross daily and follow Me).

And that makes the Cross of Christ of no real effect, not actually accomplishing Redemption for anyone, but mereby making it possible for YOU to finish off what Christ started through your own works.

Coming to the Light is a continual action, lest the language is in vain. For your belief, you should say, “come to the Light once.â€Â

Again, you are misrepresenting the OP and what the Scriptures teach concerning the Atonement, Election and Preservation of the saints.

Again, no one on either side of the debate believes they are saved by any works of their own (Jn.3:16; Rom.4:1-6; 10:9-13; Eph.2:8-9; Tit.3:5). That is b/c no one can take away their own sins, this is how we are justified (made innocent)…the total removal of all sin we’ve ever committed.

What you are saying is that no one is saved by their own works, alone.

However, your construct makes your works the ultimate weight that tips the scales in favor of your own salvation, and are thus the ultimate cause.

Now, after one has been justified, it does take works of righteousness in order to remain walking in the Spirit and not the flesh (Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8).

How many? What kinds?

Exactly how many and of what kind of works of rightoeusness do you have to do in order to be saved?

God's Word contradicts your preposition:

Titus 3:4-6

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Staying free from sin is the only way to stay justified (innocent).

How is that working out for you?

Are you now perfectly free from all sin?

One cannot be “in Christ†and “in sin†at the same time (Jn.8:34, 51; Rom.6:16; Gal.6:7-8; 1 Jn.1:6).

I'm afraid you are misappropriating those passages.

They are not saying that one whom has been Redeemed by Christ will be absolutely free of all sin while in this body.

What they do mean is that positionally, those who have been Redeemed by Christ are seen in the eyes of God as being free of sin because Christ put to death the curse of sin for them on the Cross.

I guess you have condemned Paul and relegated Paul to the position of either being a madman, a liar and deceiver or confused and delusional, for Paul says of himself:

1 Timothy 1:15

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Paul considered himself to be the chief of sinners.

Romans 9

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to anotherâ€â€to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.â€Â[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul draws the contrast and the internal struggle taking place between the old man, that is the flesh that is infected with sin, and that of the new man, that is the Born Again spirit.

Notice who Paul says is the Deliverer from that the curse that infects the "body of death":

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Any who are trusting in their own works being added to the Work of Christ to finish the work of Atonement are denying the Cross of Christ and ultimately depending on themselves for salvation.

Eternal salvation is faith + works (Jas.2:14-26). Jas.2:24 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.â€Â

Are you Roman Catholic?

The entire Scripture must be used in order to understand sound doctrine.

Yes, and not a twisting of the Scripture as done in your cherrypicked snippet from James that is lifted totally out of it's context as a pretext for your own presupposition.

Now, lets take a look at the context James is speaking of, being, that James is speaking of those who make a profession of faith, which is not justified, ie-proven, in their deeds.

James is not speaking of how one is justified in the eyes of God, but how one's profession is proven, justified in the eyes of men.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Notice, James lays down the context from the beginning, of a declaration or profession of faith that is made before men.

Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,†but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James is speaking in a very specific sense or context of "faith", being a mere profession made before men. This must be understood or else you end up pitting James against Paul and against all of Scripture to the contrary position you assert.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works.

That entire passage of James is in the context of people making professions before men, not justification in the eyes of God.

And James is right, a mere profession of faith made to men, that is not justified, that is proven through their actions is a dead profession.

So, yes we do need to look at the Scriptures in their context instead of lifting a cherrypicked snippet in which you read your own preconceptions into them.

 

[XTruth]

If Adam was saved before the fall then what is it he was saved from?

In the same way that the holy angels were created righteous, they had eternal life and were saved from God's wrath on rebellion from His authority. Hell was created for the holy angels who disobeyed God...they were in sin. Hell was created before Adam was created (Isa.14:12-15; Eze.28:11-19; Mat.25:41). Adam was saved from God's wrath on sin as long as he remained obedient and faithful. Adam did not remain in his righteous position, just like 1/3 of the holy angels. Adam was saved b/c he was made righteous. This is no different than any O.T. or N.T. saint who God has made righteous by the forgiveness of all past sins. Adam was not born in sin, he had no past sins, but was made righteous just like any other righteous man in history. How was his righteousness any different in the grand scheme of things? If he was condemned by sin even though he had eternal life by being made righteous, like the angels, then how are we any different? Weren't the holy angels who sinned made an example to Christians many years after Christ had been resurrected (2 Pt.2:4; Jude 6)? If the condemnation of the angels is an example to Christians (N.T. saints), for what will happen to all righteous beings who sin, and this happened before Christ and some angelic rebellion even happened before Adam, then how is Adam not also our example? Wasn't it Eve who was used as our example as to how the righteous' minds can be beguiled and led into err (2 Cor.11:3)? God's standards are eternal and have always been the same toward all beings (angelic and human). Sin condemns the righteous as well as the unrighteous. Weren't the angels also called sons of God (Gen.6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7)? Wasn't Adam a son of God (Lk.3:38) and yet condemned by his sin (Rom.5:12-21; 1 Cor.15:22)?

 

[XTruth]

So that passage doesn't only prove that Adam's salvation was lost for a time, but that all have already lost their salvation once before and are only regaining it when they come to Christ the first time.

To equate what the man who is saved now with Adam's innocence is a tremendously wrong mistake. In salvation, we are not restored to the innocence and sinlessness of Adam. We are not again placed back in the garden of Eden in a state of innocence where we can fall. We are now far worse spiritually then Adam was in the Garden of Eden. We have a different nature. We still have the sin nature after salvation, but we sinners are merely pronounces innocent (justified) on the basis of faith alone. We do have the advantage of regeneration, and the indwelling of the Spirit, but we will never again be innocent as Adam was in the garden.

--------------------------------
X- wrote-
Are we still sinners after the rebirth? Aren't we told to sin no more redemption and sanctification(Ex.20:20; Job 5:24; Ps.4:4; Pro.14:9; Eze.3:21; Jn.5:14; 8:11, 34; Rom.6:2, 12-16, 23; 1 Cor.15:34; Eph.4:26; 1 Tim.5:20; Jas.1:15; 1 Pt.4:1; 1 Jn.2:1, 6; 3:6, 9; 5:18)? Do not be deceived, those who are "in Christ" walk after the Spirit and give no occasion to the flesh (Gal.6:7-8). If you say you have fellowship with God, yet walk in sin, then you are not of God and you need to repent to be restored again (1 Jn.1:6). Is the righteousness of God a filthy thing (2 Cor.5:21)? Are we still seen as sinners after all past sins have been forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9)?

You do have a point that our state at this present moment is not like Adam's before the fall, though it will be soon. I wasn't trying to infer that, only that those who have been made righteous by God are seen in the same condition of righteousness, whether angelic, prefall of Adam, after Adam and pre-Christ on the cross, or post-Christ's resurrection. The righteous are seen as saints, not sinners. If the saint sins, THEN they are seen as sinners and must repent (Lk.13:1-5; 1 Jn.1:9).

 

[dadof10]

Yes, and not a twisting of the Scripture as done in your cherrypicked snippet from James that is lifted totally out of it's context as a pretext for your own presupposition.

Wow, is that the pot calling the kettle black.

Now, lets take a look at the context James is speaking of, being, that James is speaking of those who make a profession of faith, which is not justified, ie-proven, in their deeds.

James is not speaking of how one is justified in the eyes of God, but how one's profession is proven, justified in the eyes of men.

No, he's not. This is the typical Calvinist line and the ENTIRE passage taken in context debunks your assesment

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Notice, James lays down the context from the beginning, of a declaration or profession of faith that is made before men.

What I notice is you "snipped" half of verse 14 and put it with verses 15-17. It should read "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James (RSV) 2)

In context, the red highlighted above is properly a part of verse 14 because it is referring to the "faith" earlier in the verse. I wonder why you would do that....hummmmm. What do you think the answer to this rhetorical question is? Yes?

James is not talking about a "declaration or profession of faith that is made before men" ONLY, he simply asks "if someone says he has faith, but does not have works, can his faith save him?" Not "can his false faith..." or "can his SAID faith...". In fact, the KJV has "can faith save him?" There is no contextual reason to believe this "profession" was ONLY before men, or that the believer was not sincere when the profession was made, or that he's not talking about a true faith.This is truly a reach.

Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,†but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James is speaking in a very specific sense or context of "faith", being a mere profession made before men.

How do you get that from the text? Perhaps from a preconception?

This must be understood or else you end up pitting James against Paul and against all of Scripture to the contrary position you assert.

Scripture speaks in many places of losing ones faith. (Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27) "All of Scripture" doesn't agree with you.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works.

That entire passage of James is in the context of people making professions before men, not justification in the eyes of God..

This verse says the exact opposite of your assertion. "But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†The person "making professions before men" are the people who are doing the works, not the ones "having" faith.

And James is right, a mere profession of faith made to men, that is not justified, that is proven through their actions is a dead profession.

Good of you to agree with James.

So, yes we do need to look at the Scriptures in their context instead of lifting a cherrypicked snippet in which you read your own preconceptions into them.

Whoooaaa, there, big fellah....I don't think James is done with this subject, do you? What about verses 19-26? For all the complaining about "snippits" you sure are doing a lot of snipping. Let's keep going.

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. (James (RSV) 2)

It's obvious by these verses, taken in context, that both faith and "works" are necessary for justification, which is what the next verse says. Would you say, along with James, that Abraham was "justified by works"?

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.(James (RSV) 2)

Completely in context. And as an exclamation point, one more example of justification by works done in faith:

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

As you can see, verse 24 is right in the middle of two examples (Abraham and Rahab) of people who were justified by faith AND works, so is in no way "taken out of context" by XTruth. We need an active faith, not a dead faith, and we need to cooperate with the Grace of God in order to be justified.

 

[XTruth]

Solo…
Agreed, for the most part. The language used “secured†is not agreed with. The Holy Spirit is a down payment, an earnest, first fruits of salvation, not something that guarantees salvation

I'm afraid that the Word of God disagrees with your assessment above.

2 Corinthians 1

12 For our boasting is this: the testimony of our conscience that we conducted ourselves in the world in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom but by the grace of God, and more abundantly toward you. 13 For we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end 14 (as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

15 And in this confidence I intended to come to you before, that you might have a second benefit 16 to pass by way of you to Macedonia, to come again from Macedonia to you, and be helped by you on my way to Judea. 17 Therefore, when I was planning this, did I do it lightly? Or the things I plan, do I plan according to the flesh, that with me there should be Yes, Yes, and No, No? 18 But as God is faithful, our word to you was not Yes and No. 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by usâ€â€by me, Silvanus, and Timothyâ€â€was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes. 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

The question is not whether one's salvation is assured, and accomplished solely by God who is Faithful as Paul says, but whether one is truly established in Christ.


2 Corinthians 5

[quote:1e7wdmkh]1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

[/quote:1e7wdmkh]

I will address all you have said to me, but let me first ask you what Bible you read from. I use the KJV and neither 2 Cor.1:22, nor 2 Cor.5:5 end with "as a guarantee" in my Bible.

As a matter of fact, let me address those passages; the last verse from the 2 Cor. 1 passage and then the verse of 2 Cor.5:5 itself, then we can move on....

2 Corinthians 1:24
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
It is by faith that saved men will stand forever. But here’s the kicker; faith has to be continued in by obedience to the Word if you expect to abide with God forever. The benefits of faith won’t remain if you discontinue the practice of your faith. The word ‘faith,’ as used in this verse, comes from the Greek word ‘pistis,’ which means one has constancy in their profession by the walk in obedience toward Christ, who they rely on for salvation. The word for ‘stand’ comes from the Greek word ‘histemi,’ which means abide, continue, covenant, appoint, establish and hold up. So it is by a constant obedience that one is held up in the covenant with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:5
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the earnest of excepting Christ as the only sacrifice for sin, which is also what Ephesians 1:13-14 says; a favorite of the holders of the doctrine of eternal security. It says, “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.†The word ‘earnest’ comes from the Greek word ‘arrabon,’ meaning earnest money, pledge, or first-payment. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of adoption. Sonship through this phase of the Spirit in the life of a believer is the first-payment or first-measure of the Spirit and of our inheritance until the fullness of the Spirit is received and the fullness of redemption is complete (Rom.8:17-24; 2 Cor.1:21-22; 1 Pt.1:4-13). 1 Thessalonians 5:19 tells us to not quench the Spirit. That means we are not to extinguish or let Him go out.

The Holy Spirit is the only guarantee, not eternal life (Heb.5:9; Jas.2:24-26; 1 Pt.1:9), but even the Holy Spirit can be taken away for sinning. “And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him (Judg.16:20).†“But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him (1 Sam.16:14).†“Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me (Ps.51:11).†God cut off the natural branch for sin (Rom.11:17-24; 1 Cor.10:1-11), don’t you know that we have no chance of remaining in te Vine if we rebel and sin (Jn.15:1-6)? “And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear (1 Pt.1:17).â€Â

 

[XTruth]

Paul teaches the saints in Ephesus of the great work of God in Election and Preservation of the saints.

Ephesians 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earthâ€â€in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here we have a glorious truth, that salvation, from beginning to end is accomplished by God and God alone, "to the praise of His Glory", with the Holy Spirit indeed being "the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession", ie-the Resurrection of the body at the Second Coming of Christ.

------------------------------
X- wrote-
Again, what Bible are you using that has translated the word "earnest" to "guarantee" in Eph.1:14? I know doctrinal bias when I read it. Having the Holy Spirit is no guarantee of salvation. The Holy Spirit was taken fron Saul (1 Sam.16:14), Samson (Judg.16:20), and David knew this to be true (Ps.51:11). Let's break those words down in the original Greek form and do some cross referencing to see if the O.T. just had different standards.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

These verses are often used as assurance of salvation verses, but no one has this assurance unless they meet God’s terms of the covenant. Our names have been signed for us in the book of life when we repent and believe the gospel (Mk.1:15), but the contract is void and nullified if the conditions aren’t met: “And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Ex.32:33).†“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels (Rev.3:5).†Sin negates the righteousness received from God. The possibility of not overcoming is inevitable, if you don’t walk in the Spirit (Gal.5:16-26).

We are made holy and without blame the moment we’re first reconciled to the Father by the Son. However, it’s not guaranteed that we’ll stay that way unless we let the old man lay dead and continue carrying on in the new man by following the Holy Spirit (Rom.12:1-2; 2 Cor.5:17-18; Eph.4:20-24), which the overcomers in Christ do (Gal.6:7-8; Rev.21:7). Jesus was our example of how God demands the righteous to live if they want to see their hope of eternal life become a reality. This is not a suggestion God threw out there. God is not pleased with our stumbles as long as we’re trying. He is only pleased with perfect obedience (Gen.17:1; 1 Sam.15:22; Mat.5:48; Heb.5:9); nothing else is accepted.

We aren’t received as sinners in heaven after the rest of our sin is washed off at the pearly gates. How we are at death is how we’ll be for eternity (Rev.22:11). Holy and righteous is what’s demanded for eternal salvation. But you say that’s not fair, there should be some kind of warning. Or you say that’s impossible, we’re only human. The question is, do you believe God’s Word, or do you believe human philosophies and doctrines of demons (1 Tim.4:1)? “For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth (Lev.11:44).†“Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear (1 Pt.1:16-17).â€Â

Sin is what shames man and brings blame, reproach, and is the exact opposite of holiness. Sin is what stripped the glory of God off of Adam and Eve so that they became naked. “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons (Gen.3:7).†“Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame (Rev.16:15).†No one who is hiding from God in shame has maintained his righteousness and kept the salvation that he was given.

Jesus alone makes righteous, but it’s up to each individual to remain blameless, which is simply defined as obeying His commandments and walking in all His ways: “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless (Lk.1:6).†Jesus is not coming back for the professing Christians who haven’t ceased from their sins. “Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless (2 Pt.3:14).†“That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Eph.5:27).†The same conditions apply to the ones who die with unrepented sin.

Being predestined is explained in the next passage (Eph.1:11-14), but let it be known that God has foreordained, established, and pre-arranged all children of God to be adopted into His family, but who becomes a child of God is left up to each individual (Jn.3:15-20; Rev.22:17). This plan that’s been foreknown and predestined is for man to conform from the ways of the world into the image of Christ through complete obedience. Jesus was our example and this is how He lived from the beginning (1 Jn.2:6). Those who love the world are enemies of God, not sons, no matter who you profess and believe in (Jas.4:4). “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever (1 Jn.2:15-17).â€Â

Ephesians 1:11-14
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1:4 has already told us that we should walk holy and without blame before God. So it's already implied that this passage is for the people who walk holy and without blame before God. If you become a backslider after you become a renewed person who’s been brought back to God by the remission of past sins (Rom.3:25), then you’ll be spiritually dead and lost again due to the penalty of sin (Gen.2:17; Rom.6:23) just like the prodigal son (Lk.15:11-32). Then you’ll need to come to your senses and know you’re lost again and in need of further sincere repentance in order to be restored again (Rev.2:5, 16; 3:3, 19), or else you’ll still be lost in sin. If you walk holy, which is only possible as a result of the Holy Spirit in your life, then you’ll have the safety of a guaranteed inheritance.

We have obtained an inheritance along with many other blessings (Eph.1:3-9), but our inheritance can be squandered like the prodigal son did with his inheritance. Our birthright can even be sold for the desires of the flesh, like Esau did (Gen.25:31; Heb.12:15-17). We now possess our inheritance in Christ by promise, but it will not be ours in reality until the end of a life sowing to the Spirit (vs.14; Mk.5:5; 19:29; 25:34; 1 Cor.15:50; Eph.1:18; Col.1:12; 3:24; Heb.6:12; 9:15; 1 Pt.1:4; Rev.21:7). And if we return to the desires of the flesh of the old man, then we will not inherit the kingdom of God or anything from it that’s been promised the moment you first believed and repented (Rom.1:29-32; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5; Col.3:5-6).

Every man has been predestined to conform to the likeness of Jesus (Rom.8:29-30; Eph.1:5). This plan of man conforming from the ways of the world into the image of Christ through complete obedience, like He lived from the beginning, is what’s been foreknown and predestined. All men are called to accept or reject His plan. Those who conform by obedience are those who are predestined. Those who are predestined by submission to the Word of God are those who are the called, because they are the ones who answered. Those who’ve proven their love for Him by obeying the commandments of our Lord are those who answered the call, and they have been justified (Eph.2:8-9; Jas.2:21-24). Those who have been cleaned from all past sins (Rom.3:25), are those who are declared innocent by justification coming from Christ alone, and they will be glorified as He is glorified, if they abide in their calling (2 Pt.1:10). “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (Jas.2:24).â€Â

But you can’t be apart of God’s predestined plan if you haven’t been regenerated. ‘Regeneration’ is the Greek word ‘paliggenesia,’ which is a spiritual renovation; specifically from Messianic restoration. Jesus alone justifies us; that is, He makes us innocent by taking all our past sins away (Rom.3:25). This can happen no other way (Acts 4:12). But continuing in justification is defined by remaining sinless; for sin is the transgression of God’s laws, which makes all man guilty, because sin brings forth death (Rom.5:14; Heb.2:2; Jas.1:15; 1 Jn.3:4). Continued justification is faith plus works, “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (Jas.2:24).†Thus, eternal life is only called a hope for those who have been renewed by the Holy Ghost (Tit.1:2).

Besides John 10:26-29, this passage is the hook, line, and sinker for the cause of the eternal security doctrine. The two things most presented to me when reasoning with the believers of this doctrine is that they are sealed with the Holy Spirit and written in the book of life. To follow the trail which defeated their eternal comfort in having their names forever written in the book of life no matter what, start at Exodus 32:32-33 in this book; but right now, lets focus on what’s meant by being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

To start off slow, I’ll point out that we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit as a down payment, not the seal of salvation as a completed purchase. The seal of the Holy Spirit confirms whom we belong to (2 Cor.1:22). Like all of God’s promises, the promised Holy Spirit (Gal.3:14) is conditional. We have to repent to receive His adoption (Rom.8:14-16). The seal of God lets the entire spiritual and angelic eyes know you belong to God, if you are indeed walking according to the Spirit and not the flesh (Heb.8:9). We’re never told the seal can’t be broke if the terms of sonship to God aren’t met. We’re only told that we are sealed if we are His.

This should be believed no differently than the rest of Scripture. We’ve been sealed with a pledge, or the first-payment of the Holy Spirit, not the full measure that is given as our inheritance when our redemption is complete (Rom.8:17-24). Our full inheritance, full completion of redemption, nor our full measure of the Spirit from the first fruits of the Spirit will be fully given and unforfeitable for the saints until the day we leave this world to be with the Lord (Ex.32:33; Eze.18:4; 33:10-20; Jn.5:14; 8:34; Rev.2:5). That is easily proven when studying the same truth with salvation.

The seal can be broken due to our our rebellion against acting accordingly to God’s Word; or the Bible has major contradictions and the following Scripture is worthless. Romans 13:11 says, “And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.†This is written to the church who already had salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.†This was written to the church about obtaining salvation, even though they were already saved and sealed. Hebrews 9:28 says, “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.†These Christians were written with the promise that Jesus was going to appear a second time to bring them into salvation, even though they already had it.

1 Peter 1:5 says, “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.†Peter, who literally walked with Jesus and was given salvation from Him already (Mat.16:16; 1 Jn.5:1), said it would be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:9 says, “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.†Again, Peter says salvation will be received at the end of their faith. He was speaking to righteous Christians who had been born again already. 1 Peter 1:13 says, “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.â€Â

For the third time within 8 verses, Peter’s made it sound like our hope is at the end of our journey, as long as we continue obeying. Salvation is not fully given as an unforfeitable possession, nor is the seal unforfeitable for the saints until the next life (Eph.1:11-18). The instant you repent from your sins, you’ll go be with God if you die at that moment. A lot can happen between the new birth and our last breath. This is the salvation being talked about; the unforfeitable one that is only fully given and kept after a life lived as an overcomer in Christ (Rev.2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-28; 3:5, 12, 21; 21:7). The next life for a faithful Christian is the eternal life. The next life for the person, of any faith who is left in sin, is eternal death, which is called such because of being eternally alive and conscious without the life of God being given to them.

-----------------
Saint I... WROTE-
"Paul goes on further in the second chapter to explain why man cannot claim any role in salvation, ie-"so that no man can boast".

X wrote-
This is true of Eph.2:8-9. Every single individual on this thread has agreed to this. No man can take away all his past sins and that is of no works of man whatsoever so that none can boast. But let us not skip the verses in between...


Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Paul is telling the Ephesians what state they’re in when they sin; taking upon themselves the nature of Satan himself. Taking a look at verse 1, we see Jesus has made us alive, as we were dead in trespasses and sins. The word ‘quickened’ comes from the Greek word ‘zoopoieo,’ meaning to make alive or give life. But how is it that we need to be made alive if we are physically breathing? It’s obvious that He has quickened the life of the spirit of the repented. What made our spirits spiritually dead?

Paul says it was trespasses and sins that killed us. The word ‘trespasses’ was translated from the Greek word ‘paraptoma,’ meaning a falling aside when one should have stood upright; any deviation from the rule of duty or moral equity, as well as any flagrant offence or trespass. The word ‘sins’ was translated from the Greek word ‘harmartia,’ meaning a failing to hit the mark; always in a moral sense; a sin of thought, word, or deed. So this verse is just repeating the same message that’s told throughout the Bible, in word and by example (Gen.2:17; Eze.28:11-18; Rom.8:12-13; 2 Pt.2:24). What we are owed for sin is eternal death, by physically dying in a state of spiritual death, met by the condition of a single sin (Rom.6:23).

Men can be dead, while living (Mat.8:22; 2 Cor.5:14; Col.2:13; 1 Tim.5:6). Men can be living, while dead (Rom.6:2, 7-14; Col.2:20; 3:3; 2 Tim.2:11). Physical death is the separation of the inner man from the body (Jas.2:26). Spiritual death is the separation from God, due to sin (Isa.59:2; Mat.8:22; Col.2:13; 1 Tim.5:6). Eternal death is eternal separation from God because man chose to remain separated from God in sin (Isa.66:22-24; Mat.10:28; 25:41, 46; Rev.2:11; 14:9-11; 20:11-15; 21:8; 22:15). This is called the second death, or second separation from God (Rev.2:11; 20:14; 21:8).

So, Jesus brought us back to life by taking upon Himself, all our own individual past sins (Rom.3:25); our future sins never require Him to die again, but they do need to be repented of to be forgiven, if you have stopped following the Spirit to satisfy the appetite of the flesh, bringing back the death penalty upon you (Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8). The old man, which died at the time you accepted Christ and turned from sin (2 Cor.5:17-18), is revived if we consecrate ourselves to Satan again by walking in disobedience to our Father in the future. We would have put on our old nature (vs.3; Ps.51:5; Rom.2:14; 5:12-21; Jas.3:6), and the wrath of God comes back on us (Jn.3:36). This is because God is no longer the Father of the sinless Christian, because they have disobeyed, becoming sinful again. Their father is now Satan (vs.2; Mat.13:38; Jn.8:34, 44; Eph.5:6; Col.3:6; 1 Jn.3:8-10; 5:18).

This is further explained this way: Satan is the prince, or ruler, of the air, because in this realm, the evil spirits dwell, all of who are under his dominion (vs.2; Eph.3:10; 6:11-12; Col.2:10; 1 Pt.3:22; Rev.12). When one gets rid of this spirit, he no longer has the old man in him or dominating him (Eph.4:27; 6:10-18; Jas.4:7; 1 Pt.5:8-9; 1 Jn.3:8-10; 5:18). The only way any of these spirits have any authority over you is when you put back on the old man by disobeying God’s authority, becoming a child of disobedience (Rom.6:14-23; 2 Cor.5:17-18; 1 Jn.3:8-10; 5:18). So, the only way the following verses of 4 – 10 apply to you, is if you are continuing faithful in Christ (Jn.15:1-6).

 

[XTruth]

through life no matter what a Christian does.

That is a caricature and mischaracterization of the doctrines of Election and Preservation of the saints, for in no way, shape or form do they mean or are said to mean that someone can make a profession of faith and then live any way they want.

[quote:2jrup7cd] That would make God a respecter of persons (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25; 1 Pt.1:17)

I'm afraid you have a misunderstanding of what "no respector of persons" means.

What it means is that God pays no attention to one's status, such as economic, political, etc.

For you see, all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, and all therefore, prior to regeneration are wicked sinners, the enemy of God, with no desire for God due to being their own god, ie-(the judge of right and wrong, good and evil as Satan promised Adam and Eve).

And all come into the kingdom the exact same way, being chosen by God before the creation of the world, regenerated by God from death to life in Christ.


It is God who makes dead people alive, and keeps them to the very end, just as promised.

and a sinner Himself (Jas 2:9-10).

How?

I haven't mischaracterization anything. I never made a claim toward that. The fact is that many do fall away into sin, a life no different than the world. Were they never really saved? I know I was for years until I quit fighting the temptations of the flesh since I wasn't taught that I would be condemned for turning against the ways of God (2 Chr.15:2; Hos.4:6; Jn.15:1-6; 1 Cor.3:16-17; Rev.3:15-16). I know many who have served God for years who do not endure until the end. They will not be saved unless they repent and completely conform their lifes to the gospel (Mat.10:22; Rev.3:5).

God is no respecter of person in judgment. This demands a thread of its own and won't get the full attention needed as I could do with the context of all 8 places the Word says there is no respecter of persons w/ God. I'll throw in a little w/ this, but keep in mind what's just been sain in Rom. 1:29-2:3. That passage is all that's needed.

Romans 2:7-11
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
God’s judgment is just because of equality in obeying the gospel. This is written to the church, both the literal churches of over 1,900 years ago and the church as the body of Christ throughout the church age. So why would we need to continue in anything to seek for eternal life if it is unconditional to all who are privileged enough to be called the church? There are actually four things we are to seek for. They are glory, honor, immortality, and eternal life. Shouldn’t all of those be a given for those who have been named among the righteous? What’s there to seek for? Won’t all those things be granted for those who have simply believed?

All these blessings are obviously conditional on the basis of continuing patiently and seeking as a runner who is looking for the finish line and continuing until the end; then comes the prize, if he doesn’t stop running (1 Cor.9:24-27). The glory we seek for will be revealed in us, if we endure in the sufferings with Jesus (Rom.8:17-18). We will receive the honor we seek, if we follow Jesus and keep ourselves sanctified, being free from fornication (Jn.12:26; 1 Thes.4:3-4). We will receive the immortality we seek, if our labor is not in vain and we defeat death by remaining sinless (1 Cor.15:50-58). We will inherit the eternal life we seek, if we endure the labor for it, while we’re following Christ until the end (Jn.6:27; 10:27-28).

Remember, these are all given only on the condition of seeking them and by continuing in well doing, and by working good. Acts of obedience don’t merit such blessings that are always provided for by grace, but they demonstrate acceptance of them by man and proof to God of conformity to His will (Phil.2:12; Jas.1:21-27). For them who refuse to obey the truth of the gospel, but would rather obey the ways of the world, the wrath of God is upon you (vs.8; Jn.3:36). Anyone who does evil will reap eternal corruption of his or her soul (vs.9; Gal.6:7-8). But for every man who continues in the righteousness He received in Christ, he will live eternally in peace and righteousness (vs.10; Eze.33:15-16), for there is no favoritism with God. He looks at the righteous no differently than He views the wicked when sin is committed (vs.11; Eze.18:24-28).
In verse 11, it’s been said again that there is no respecter of persons with God. This is the 2nd mention of it in the New Testament and 4th mention in both testaments. There is four more coming and eight times in the Bible, man is told to be no respecter of persons. In the presence of two or three witness, every word can be established (Mat.18:16). If there was only one such verse throughout all Scripture, then it may have justification for rebuttal upon its meaning. The many times this is said to us should raise red flags and grab your attention. These words literally mean that God shows absolutely no favoritism or partiality in the judgments, which He must righteously execute upon all sin, from lying to murdering (Rev.21:8).

It doesn’t matter if He has called you son or enemy (Jas.4:4; 1 Jn.3:8-10). As it is said from verse 7 until this one, God judges on character and conduct. It is true that no one can have eternal life without Jesus, but that doesn’t mean that people who have had Jesus and still believe in His deity are guaranteed salvation. Verse 7 says, it takes patient continuance and a life of seeking eternal life. Verse 8 says, wrath is reserved for any man who doesn’t obey righteousness. Anyone who has just been disobedient to God’s laws has committed sin and has obeyed unrighteousness. Verse 9 reinstates this by adding ‘every soul’ who sins will be deserving of tribulation and anguish. Evil isn’t always bloodshed or Satan worship as man thinks it. Any act of unrighteousness is sin and evil in the sight of God; even a “white lie.†Verses 12-16 continue with God’s terms of judgment by equality and not favoritism. Here’s a list of related verses: God is no respecter of persons in judgment (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Gal.2:6; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25; 1 Pt.1:17) and commands us not to be either (Lev.19:15; Dt.1:17; 16:19; Pro.24:23; 28:21; Jas.2:1, 9; 1 Tim.5:21).

The verse speaks for itself, but....
Colossians 3:25
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
Whenever you see a verse like this in the Bible, there’s usually a warning close by that commands God’s people to fear Him. We find this warning in the third verse prior to this one. The notation is note worthy and is in no way a coincidence. Having the fear of the Lord makes no sense if you believe you can’t lose your salvation. It only makes sense in the light that God judges all sin equally regardless of who committed it or who they believe in. God is no respecter of person in judgment. Only past sins have been forgiven (Rom.3:25), and no where in the entire Bible does it say that future acts of unrighteousness will be looked over. That would be showing favoritism, not judging impartially, and show respect of person. God simply doesn’t do that.

Look at the context, should be obvious...I'll only give you what I've written for verse 17 for room sake.
1 Peter 1:13-117
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1 Peter 1:17
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

This is the last time in the Bible we are warned with the admonition to fear the Lord, who we call Father, because He judges without respect of persons. If you haven’t noticed by now, Peter is writing to Christians. He makes it further clear he’s addressing the children of God by referring to God, as Father. This is another great example of how God has grouped the message of fearing Him with asserting the fact that He won’t show partiality in His judgments toward the disobedient. These two messages are usually within verses of each other, because they communicate one overwhelming warning that is extensively disregarded by the dogma of eternal security.

Notice this verse; a person’s works are important. It is a common belief that we are not made righteous by our work, so our own works can’t make us unrighteous. The actual wording is, “We couldn’t do anything to save ourselves, so there is nothing we can do to unsave ourselves.†The way they put it actually makes it sound logical if you haven’t grasp the concept of what condemns in the first place. We must be righteous, spotless, and without so much as a trace of sin on our account to be worthy of escaping His judgments. We must work righteousness by producing the fruit of the Spirit and not works of the flesh (Gal.5:19-23) if we are to remain joined to Christ (Jas.2:21-26).

God isn’t in the business of overlooking the sins of a person in rebellion of His law; even if that person has, at one time, been made righteous by their repentance and faith in Jesus. It doesn’t work like that; God can only forgive past sins (Rom.3:25). Nor is God in the industry of giving lovable people, which everyone adores, eternal life; while they haven’t accepted the redeeming, restoring, and atoning blood of Jesus as their substitute for the death penalty of sin, which they deserve. God doesn’t work like that either.

What God’s requirements are for eternal life are simple and have been bluntly declared throughout both testaments? We must have faith in God’s plan of salvation to be redeemed; therefore making us righteous, and then continue in the obedience of His commandments and laws. Simply put, God’s given us a way to be righteous; we must maintain that righteous status by continuing in obedience to God. The simplicity of God’s Word is obvious when we realize God condemns all sin without respect of persons. A belief to the contrary confuses and complicates the entire message of the Bible. Here’s a list of related verses with more on these warnings: God is no respecter of persons in judgment (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11; Gal.2:6; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25; 1 Pt.1:17) and commands us not to be either (Lev.19:15; Dt.1:17; 16:19; Pro.24:23; 28:21; Jas.2:1, 9; 1 Tim.5:21).

and a sinner Himself (Jas 2:9-10).

[/quote:2jrup7cd]

How?


God's law says that those who show respect to person commits sin. God never sins (2 Cor.5:21; Tit.1:2; Heb.4:15; 6:18; 1 Pt.1:19; 2:22; 1 Jn.3:5; etc) and does not hold us guilty for things He would do Himself. God gives commands that He Himself will not ever bend. Righteousness is His standard and what He expects from us also (1 Jn.2:6). If God has said showing partiality is a sin, but does it Himself, then He has sinned.

 

[XTruth]

The Holy Spirit can be taken away (Judg.16:20; 1 Sam.16:14; Ps.51:11).

I'm afraid you are confusing the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, which God, in His Providence empowers many to accomplish a specific purpose, even a snake or a donkey, with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit as promised in Ezekiel 36:

[quote:3myrplv9]24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Notice exactly Who is doing all the work of Redemption.

As Jesus told NIc at night, "with man this is impossible".

Therefore, those who are depending on their own deeds, works, paticipation to be the ultimate reason for their salvation rather than trusting God exclusively, are building their house on shifting sand.

Jonah 2:9
"Salvation is of the LORD.â€Â

[/quote:3myrplv9]
No confusion at all. The Holy Spirit has been recorded as being taken away and I'm sure has happened many other times. You already have my writings as evidence that Eph.1:4-5, 11-14, 2 Cor.5:5, and more. The Holy Spirit guarantees no one of eternal life, whether the infilling, indwelling, baptism of, or any such thing.

Eze.36 passage is about the gathering of Israel in the last times...partly fulfilled and a being fulfilled prophecy. We are actually weeks away from Eze.38-39. Salvation is of the Lord...AGREED.

 

[XTruth]

I also agree w/ francisdesales , except one thing that will help clear up a misunderstanding between you two. Rom.5:12-21 does teach us that all are born in sin, in a fallen state, condemned, b/c of the one sin of one man. That passage of verses also proves why John 3 says we must be spiritually born "again." To do something again means it's been done at least once before. While Adam was righteous, all were righteous while in his loins. When Adam sinned, all became unrighteous when he sinned. So that passage doesn't only prove that Adam's salvation was lost for a time, but that all have already lost their salvation once before and are only regaining it when they come to Christ the first time.

So, what exactly can cause the Elect to "lose" salvation?

AN EXCELLENT QUESTION!
What is the only thing God has ever condemned? What is the only reason that condemns any being, whether angelic or human? What is the only thing that God judges? What are we to fear God...because He must judge what? Why are we told repeatedly to sin no more? What are we told to sow to the Spirit if we want to reap eternal life instead of sowing to the flesh, which reaps us corruption (Gal.6:7-8)? What caused Adam to fall, which condemned the entire world (Rom.5:12-21)? What condemned 1/3 of the holy angels to a chained existance in darkness until the judgment when they'll be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity (2 Pt.2:4; Jude 6-7)? What is it that Jesus never did (2 Cor.5:21; Heb.4:14; 2 Pt.1:19; 2:22; 1 Jn.3:5) in order to take away all our past sins (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9). What condemns the righteous is what's always condemned the righteous and will always condemn the righteous who are found with it the day they die (Eze.3:20; 18:24; 33:12; Rev.22:11). The answer is SIN. THIS SHOULDN'T BE A MYSTERY TO ANY OF US WHO PROFESS CHRIST (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; 34:7; Num.14:18; Job 10:14; Eze.3:17-21; 18:4, 20-32; 33:12-20; Jn.8:31-34, 51; 14:15-23; 15:14; Rom.1:29-32; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-10; Tit.2:11-15; Jas.1:15; 1 Pt.4:1-8; 1 Jn.1:6; 2:3-6; 3:1-10, 14-15; 5:1-4, 18; Rev.2-3; 21:8, 27; 22:15; etc., etc.).

1 Pt.2:21-22
"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:"

 

[Solo]

So the position that all who dismiss a believer's eternal security in Christ Jesus is boiled down to the following question and answer?

So, what exactly can cause the Elect to "lose" salvation?

The answer is SIN.

If so, then that position requires that a born again believer loses his/her salvation after each and every sin; which concludes that the Holy Spirit leaves the born again believer every time the born again believer sins. And the Holy Spirit re-enters the born again believer when he/she is born again.

That means that the born again process which was developed by an all knowing God is not sufficient to overcome the world, sin, mankind, satan, and the rest of the wickedness in His creation.

What that also means is that being in Christ is dependent upon sinful man to remain in Christ, and that Christ Jesus cannot do anything to overcome this action.

What this also means is that everyone that believes that one can lose their salvation because of sin, is a liar; because their is not one single, solitary person on this planet that has confessed each and every sin that they have committed, even with a general prayer such as, "forgive me my sins"!

My Salvation rests in what Jesus Christ has done to save me, and what the Holy Spirit does to sanctify me, and what God the Father has and is doing and will do to redeem me.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus VERY CLEARLY says that people DO fall away - and are subsequently condemned. Where? Try first the parable of the Sower and the Seed. The seed is the Word, the Gospel. Note how some receive the Gospel and have faith and are joyous to begin with but LATER, because of the worries of the world, fall away and LOSE faith. They fall away.

It doesn't say that francis. It says, 'As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the desire for riches choke the word and it proves unfruitful.' This is not saying they are saved and later fall away. Read it carefully. In every instance but the last, the man hears but he doesn't understand. In the first instance - what was sown on rocky ground - this is he who hears the word, and immediately receives it with joy. Obviously he is overjoyed. But does he understand? No. He might like what he is hearing. But many people believe things they don't fully understand. Jesus said, 'they had no depth of soil.' Mt. 13:5 And, 'when the sun rose, they were scorched.' In the second instance - what was sown among thorns - this is he who hears, but the desire for riches chokes the word. Again, he hears, but does he understand? No. Jesus said it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom (though all things are possible with God) In the third instance - he who hears the word and understands it - he bears fruit.

So we see it is not by hearing only, but by hearing and understanding that the tree bears much fruit. It's by understanding that the tree establishes deep roots. It's by understanding that the tree grows and bears fruit. So if the seed falls on good soil, and the man understands, and there is the proper depth of soil, and there is no desire to get rich, then the tree will flourish. Now all of this speaks to the condition of the mind, heart and soul. In effect, it speaks to the individual; who you are, indeed who you were, and why you are here, and why you were created.

Many people followed Jesus; they all heard his teachings. But they all fell away, except for twelve; and one of them was a devil. Were the ones who fell away saved? I don't think so. Some even said Jesus had a demon. Judas heard, and he was compelled to follow. But was he saved? No. Judas was created to betray Jesus; in effect he was meant for destruction. The good tree is saved; the man who hears and understands. He bears good fruit.

 

[Solo]

Good morning, Mike. Now that you have had the weekend to post your detailed understanding, let's look at some points where we may disagree and agree. First, the definitions...

First, let us ask the question, What is "Eternal Security"?

Eternal Security is the term used to describe the state of an individual who has been "saved"?

That is a definition based upon begging the question. You have yet to prove that being saved is "eternal security", nor is that universally accepted. When beginning such a 'dissertation', you don't begin by begging the question that you intend to prove. That is the entire point of this thread - to show that being saved IS eternally secured. I will get to my reasonings on my disagreement later as I address your very well laid out points.

I would like to point this out for others, because people can be subliminally effected by such misleading "definitions".

Eternal Security is defined as being eternally secure in Christ Jesus for one’s salvation. Whether one adheres to the understanding of the teaching of eternal security or conditional perseverance does not have anything to do with proving the truth of either. The topic of this thread is Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth; therefore the Eternal Security apologetic thesis has free license in the manner and text of writing.

 

[Solo]

Which leads to the question, "saved" from what?

An individual is "saved" from condemnation or judgment.

Again, you are begging the question and ignoring Scriptures that say that even "saved" people are judged and some are even condemned. Your presumptions of John 3 are this:

Those initially saved are not condemned - based upon Christ's words that those who are NOT initially saved are condemned. This is false logic that jumps to conclusions

Here is Christ's point: Those who do not accept Christ's Gospel are condemned.

This does NOT mean that those who DO accept Christ's Gospel AVOID condemnation, because no statement is made about such a person who subsequently REJECTS the Gospel.

The only statement made is that rejecting the Gospel condemns. Accepting the Gospel saves.

Jesus is not jumping to a conclusion based on false logic. Jesus is teaching ALL who have ears to hear and eyes to see that unless one is born of the flesh AND born of the Spirit they cannot see or enter the kingdom of God.

• 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. F9 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:18-21

(NOTE: I believe conception is the beginning of being “born†into the physical world and into physical existence, but that is another topic)

 

[Solo]

But nothing is said about a person who falls away AFTER receiving the Gospel and accepting it.

Jesus VERY CLEARLY says that people DO fall away - and are subsequently condemned. Where? Try first the parable of the Sower and the Seed. The seed is the Word, the Gospel. Note how some receive the Gospel and have faith and are joyous to begin with but LATER, because of the worries of the world, fall away and LOSE faith. They fall away.
Thus, your interpretation of John 3 does not take into account all of what Christ said, because it presumes or begs the question. You presume that those who accept the Gospel cannot later reject it, when Christ doesn't say that. Ever.

The Scripture reference of “The parable of the Sower and the Seed†is not given, so I will post all three references, and harmonize the three with the meaning.

The seed that is sown is the Word of God, and the ground is the type of individual that hears the Word of God. There are four types of people defined as four type of ground in this parable, and those four types of ground and characteristics follow:

1. Wayside Ground
   
   [list:36otcp9z]
2. The Word of God is heard by one(s), but satan steals the Word from the heart of the those who heard the word but did not believe so that they were not saved. End result, a person who was already condemned had the Word of God stolen from his/her heart by satan so that they could not believe unto Salvation.
   
   [list:36otcp9z]19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. Matthew 13:19
   
   14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mark 4:14-15
   
   11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12

[/*:m:36otcp9z][/list:u:36otcp9z]
[/*:m:36otcp9z]
[*]Stony Ground

• The Word of God is heard by unbelievers, and they believe the Word of God is true for a time, but they do not have themselves established in the root of Salvation by being born again. Even the Demons believe in one God and tremble (James 2:19). One can believe the Word of God to be right, but have never been born again. I myself believed in God, and in Jesus Christ, and that the Bible was true; but I was not born again. Merely believing for a time that the Word of God is true does not place one IN Christ; only by being Born Again can one see and enter the Kingdom of God. One is not born again by just believing the Gospel to be true; one is born again by believing “IN HIMâ€Â, “ON HIM“,“IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD“, and “ON THE SON“. In chapter 3 of the Gospel according to John, Jesus teaches how one is to be born again, and in four verses (John 3:15, 16, 18, 38). He mentions believing in and on Himself five times. He DOES NOT teach that a mere belief of the historicity of Jesus Christ, but an actual God given knowledge that Jesus Christ is the one whom are faith should be in to save us.
  
  [list:36otcp9z] 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Matthew 13:20-21
  
  16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. Mark 4:16-17
  
  13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

[/*:m:36otcp9z][/list:u:36otcp9z]
[/*:m:36otcp9z]
[*]Thorny Ground

• The Word of God is heard by unbelievers, but the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, the pleasures of the world have a higher precedence placed on them over the Word of God; therefore, this group never is born again either. Before I became a born again believer, I did not submit to believing in the name of Jesus Christ because I did not want to give up the world.
  
  [list:36otcp9z] 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. Matthew 13:22
  
  18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. Mark 4:18-19
  
  14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. Luke 8:14

[/*:m:36otcp9z][/list:u:36otcp9z]
[/*:m:36otcp9z]
[*]Good Ground

• The Word of God is heard by unbelievers, and they receive it after hearing it, and they understand it to be the work of Jesus Christ that establishes them in the vine to produce fruit. No one can produce fruit from the vine which is Christ Jesus unless they have been born again INTO that vine.
  
  [list:36otcp9z]23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Matthew 13:23
  
  20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. Mark 4:20
  
  15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Luke 8:15

[/*:m:36otcp9z][/list:u:36otcp9z][/*:m:36otcp9z][/list:o:36otcp9z]

Only those who were compared as the good ground were born again, the others just heard the Word of God at various points of the sower seeding the truth. Some recognized the Word of God as truth, but were not born again. Believing the historicity and claims are one thing, but believing to the point of changing ones walk (repentance) is another.

 

[Solo]

How is one "condemned"?

An individual is condemned when they are born into physical existence at the point one becomes a living human.

Again, where do we have this in Scriptures? Christ says that REJECTING the Gospel brings about condemnation, not being born!!! This is an incredible misunderstanding of Who God is...

Wrong.

Read the Scriptures more carefully. Jesus says that unbelievers are CONDEMNED ALREADY.

• 
  17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

Those that are condemned already will remain condemned until they are born again, because only those who are born again will see and enter the kingdom of God.

I am not sure if this comes from misinterpretating John 3:5 or whether this is a result of Luther's low opinion of man that has filtered into your paradigm. However, John 3 doesn't say ANYTHING about being physically born = being condemned!

Jesus is very clear in his teaching that one must be born of the Holy Spirit in order to see or enter the kingdom of God. Prior to being born of the Spirit, Jesus says that one is born of the water, the flesh. No one exists until they are conceived in the womb in the physical realm. Being born again is of the Spirit into the spiritual realm. What is so hard about that, unless it goes against one’s own beliefs and traditions?

Per your referencing Martin Luther, unless one has documentation that Martin Luther had a low opinion of man, one should leave that slippery slope alone. Also, Jesus’ teachings concerning His coming to save the condemned doesn’t show a low opinion of man, but a high reverence and respect for the Love of God Almighty having sent His only begotten Son to die for mankind’s sin.

Basically, that says that God creates men for the express purpose of condemning them, the age-old error of Calvin... Truly, it is a terrible idea of Who God is and His LOVE for mankind.

First of all, I am not a Calvinist. I am a born again, born from above believer in Jesus Christ. I am a part of the body of Christ, and I am the temple of God in which God the Spirit dwells until the day that my redemption is completed at the coming of Jesus Christ.

Now concerning the comment “that God creates men for the express purpose of condemning them†is an incredulous take of John 3, especially when Jesus speaks of God the Father not sending Him to condemn the world, but to save the world.

• 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. F9 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:17-21

Note that since the transgression of Adam in the garden, all of his descendants have been born into sin. Not one single solitary human being has been conceived without sin. Read what King David thought concerning his conception.

• 1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive F154 me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Psalm 51:1-6

Jesus knows the condemned condition of mankind, and because the Father for so loved the world, He came to save the world; no ifs, ands, or buts about it. As Ripley says, "Believe it or not!"

 

[Solo]

Let us look at what Jesus Christ reveals about salvation, and one is to see and enter the kingdom of God. We will turn to the Gospel according to John, chapter 3.

Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews came to Jesus and states that he knows Jesus to be a teacher from God because of the works that Jesus does. Nicodemus states that no man could do the miracles that Jesus does except that God be with Him. Jesus then reveals to Nicodemus that an individual cannot even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

What is being born again mean? The Greek words γεννηθη (gennÄ“thÄ“) and ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthen) are translated into the English King James Version as "born again."

The alternative and correct interpretation is "born from above". Nicodemus expresses the confusion - since the words can mean "born again" or "born from above". He thinks Christ means "born again" by describing his disbelief in crawling back into the womb. (John 3:4) Jesus corrects Nicodemus by DIFFERENTIATING between things of the flesh and things of the spirit. He is speaking about something Nicodemus SHOULD KNOW!

Francisdesales,

Did you not read my entire posting where the complete definition of the Greek words γεννηθη (gennÄ“thÄ“) and ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthen) are given?

You make it appear that you are presenting something brand new concerning the meaning of γεννηθη (gennÄ“thÄ“) ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthen) being “born from above.â€Â

I will repost my original right here for your benefit:

What is being born again mean?

The Greek words γεννηθη (gennÄ“thÄ“) and ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthen) are translated into the English King James Version as "born again."

The Greek word γεννηθη (gennēthē) is defined as follows:
γεννηθη (gennēthē) ~verb

• bear [/*:m:10tjblnl]
• beget [/*:m:10tjblnl]
• conceive[/*:m:10tjblnl]

The Greek word ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthen) is defined as follows:
ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthen) ~adverb

• from above [/*:m:10tjblnl]
• again [/*:m:10tjblnl]
• from the beginning [/*:m:10tjblnl]
• the top[/*:m:10tjblnl]

The Greek word ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthis used 13 times in the New Testament. The 13 times that this Greek word is used, it is translated into English as “againâ€Â, “from aboveâ€Â, “the topâ€Â, or “the very first (beginning)â€Â.

Therefore, the revelation that Jesus Christ gives us in John 3 is that in order to see and enter the kingdom of God, one must be born, beget, or conceived from above, again, from the beginning, from the top.

 

[XTruth]

So the position that all who dismiss a believer's eternal security in Christ Jesus is boiled down to the following question and answer?

So, what exactly can cause the Elect to "lose" salvation?

The answer is SIN.

If so, then that position requires that a born again believer loses his/her salvation after each and every sin; which concludes that the Holy Spirit leaves the born again believer every time the born again believer sins. And the Holy Spirit re-enters the born again believer when he/she is born again.

That means that the born again process which was developed by an all knowing God is not sufficient to overcome the world, sin, mankind, satan, and the rest of the wickedness in His creation.

What that also means is that being in Christ is dependent upon sinful man to remain in Christ, and that Christ Jesus cannot do anything to overcome this action.

What this also means is that everyone that believes that one can lose their salvation because of sin, is a liar; because their is not one single, solitary person on this planet that has confessed each and every sin that they have committed, even with a general prayer such as, "forgive me my sins"!

My Salvation rests in what Jesus Christ has done to save me, and what the Holy Spirit does to sanctify me, and what God the Father has and is doing and will do to redeem me.

You could assume that position, but I wouldn't. The Holy Spirit can be taken away (Judg.16:20; 1 Sam.16:14), but is generally left in order to convict and lead people to repentance. Notice how David was begging for mercy in Psalms 51. This was a prayer of repentance for David's murder and adultery (2 Sam.11-12). He prayed for God to not take the Holy Spirit from him, not to give Him back. Sin always brings the spiritual death penalty, you can't get around that (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; 34:7; Num.14:18; Job 10:14; Eze.3:17-21; 18:4, 20-32; 33:12-20; Jn.8:31-34, 51; 14:15-23; 15:14; Rom.1:29-32; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-10; Tit.2:11-15; Jas.1:15; 1 Pt.4:1-8; 1 Jn.1:6; 2:3-6; 3:1-10, 14-15; 5:1-4, 18; Rev.2-3; 21:8, 27; 22:15; etc., etc.). That doesn't ever say anything about the Holy Spirit being taken away due to every sin. But it is absolutely true that a believer loses his/her salvation after sin until restitution is made and conditions are met...repentance (Lk.13:1-5; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-2). This is against human philosophy, but completely in line w/ the Word of God...which one do you hold? Even Israel thought this to be untrue and unfair (Eze.18:20-32). This has always gone against human reasoning, but I will hold to and believe the Word of God.


God is sufficient to overcome the world, sin, mankind, satan, and the rest of the wickedness in His creation, which He has done. But just as man can choose to turn from sin and toward God, man can also choose to turn from God and toward sin. There is no sinner on the narrow road that few will find (Mat.7:13-14; Lk.13:24). Even the righteous are scarcely saved due to disobedience...sin (1 Pt.4:17-19). Any time man turns from his wickedness to follow God, he follows God and His authority. Any time a person turns from his righteousness to follow sin, he has followed Satan and his authority (Jn.8:34, 44; 1 Jn.3:8-10).

Solo said: "What that also means is that being in Christ is dependent upon sinful man to remain in Christ, and that Christ Jesus cannot do anything to overcome this action."
Yes, we agree (Pro.15:31; 19:23; Jn.3:36; 12:46; 15:1-10; Rom.11:23; 1 Jn.2:10,14,17,24,27,28; 3:14-15).
1 Jn.2:6 "He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked."
1 Pt.2:21-22 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth:"
2 Jn.9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
Salvation is covenant between God and man. A covenant is a contract. A contract takes the faithful actions of at least 2 parties in order for the contract/covenant to be upheld.

I don't follow the next paragraph. All man has to do is to admit and repent that he is a sinner in order to be forgiven: "And the publican, standingf afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes
unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.(Lk.18:13)"
1 Jn.1:9- "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ...Is it still your position that one has to remember and confess all sins, or do you believe one has to merely come to Christ with a repented heart and ask forgiveness of all past sins??

Solo said: "My Salvation rests in what Jesus Christ has done to save me, and what the Holy Spirit does to sanctify me, and what God the Father has and is doing and will do to redeem me." That is initial salvation, but what about eternal salvation that is still only called a hope (Rom.8:20-25; 15:4, 13; 1 Cor.13:13; 15:19; Gal.5:5; Eph.1:11-18; 2:12; 4:4; Col.1:5, 23, 27; 1 Thes.5:8; 2 Thes.2:16; Tit.1:2; 3:7; Heb.3:6; 6:11, 18-19; 7:19; 9:15; 1 Pt.1:3-13)?

It comes down to what I've told you and to what you still haven't addressed. If only past sin is forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9) and all sin must be repented of for forgiveness (Lk.13:1-5; 1 Jn.1:9), then how is it that future sins don't condemn until repentance like the Word says ? (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; 34:7; Num.14:18; Job 10:14; Eze.3:17-21; 18:4, 20-32; 33:12-20; Jn.8:31-34, 51; 14:15-23; 15:14; Rom.1:29-32; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-10; Tit.2:11-15; Jas.1:15; 1 Pt.4:1-8; 1 Jn.1:6; 2:3-6; 3:1-10, 14-15; 5:1-4, 18; Rev.2-3; 21:8, 27; 22:15; etc., etc.)

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus VERY CLEARLY says that people DO fall away - and are subsequently condemned. Where? Try first the parable of the Sower and the Seed. The seed is the Word, the Gospel. Note how some receive the Gospel and have faith and are joyous to begin with but LATER, because of the worries of the world, fall away and LOSE faith. They fall away.

It doesn't say that francis.

In my Bible, it does...

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13 KJV

NKJV, NIV, ESV, NASB, RSV, ASV, Young, NAB, DBY, WEB, and HNV end verse 13 the same way. They fall away. I haven't checked others, maybe your version has something else...

Verse 13 says it all.

They hear the word with joy. They believe for awhile. They fall away.

What more needs to be said? We can end this thread with that simple little verse...

Regards