Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[francisdesales]

Mike, looks like my thoughts on this format have come to fruition... It is going to be difficult to keep order within this thread as multiple portions of your weekend teachings are dissected and argued. I'll do the best I can to keep things short, rather than bombard you with long posts.

Eternal Security is defined as being eternally secure in Christ Jesus for one’s salvation. Whether one adheres to the understanding of the teaching of eternal security or conditional perseverance does not have anything to do with proving the truth of either. The topic of this thread is Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth; therefore the Eternal Security apologetic thesis has free license in the manner and text of writing.

Normally, I wouldn't argue about definitions. However, this very thread IS ABOUT THAT VERY DEFINITION! Thus, by stating off the bat "eternal security happens when I first declare Jesus as my Lord" begs the question. It is a logical fallacy. Now, I am not saying you must change that definition, I am just pointing out that it is a logical fallacy for the readers. It has not been established that your definition is indeed true. That is the very point of this thread. You certainly can continue arguing from a logical fallacy, but it does negatively effect the weight of your argument.

I will do my best to answer your posts directed to me, but I can see there will be some confusion in this thread due to the format. Usually, we argue one point - but now, it appears we will be arguing multiple points simultaneously.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus is not jumping to a conclusion based on false logic. Jesus is teaching ALL who have ears to hear and eyes to see that unless one is born of the flesh AND born of the Spirit they cannot see or enter the kingdom of God.

I realize that and I am not saying Jesus is basing arguments on false logic. Just your understanding of what John 3 states... You are jumping to conclusions that if a person ONE TIME BELIEVES, they are not subject to condemnation EVER. However, as I pointed out, Jesus uses the present tense - believes. One must believe TODAY to avoid condemnation. Thus, you miss the point Jesus makes here, although not as strongly as He does elsewhere, that believing in Christ 20 years ago, but not today, does not keep one from condemnation. Jesus does not explicitly state that state of affairs here. But He implies it with His use of the present tense. Believes.

(NOTE: I believe conception is the beginning of being “born†into the physical world and into physical existence, but that is another topic)

That's good. Wasn't sure if you believed in some sort of pre-existence of the soul before our conception in the womb...

Trying to keep things short,

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The Scripture reference of “The parable of the Sower and the Seed†is not given, so I will post all three references, and harmonize the three with the meaning.

Thanks. I was trying to keep things short, since we all have access to the passages...

Only those who were compared as the good ground were born again, the others just heard the Word of God at various points of the sower seeding the truth. Some recognized the Word of God as truth, but were not born again. Believing the historicity and claims are one thing, but believing to the point of changing ones walk (repentance) is another.

I disagree, both in the totality of the POINT of Scriptures, as well as the actual words of Scriptures.

1.

The reason we are given the Scriptures is this: (if I had a dollar for everytime one of my separated brothers quoted me this...)
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Tim 3:16

Scriptures is given for the sake of Christians. To teach and edify. It's point is NOT to give a history lesson, although it can. The Scriptures are written for the sake of saved individuals. John tells us that everything Christ said is not included in Scriptures. Thus, we know that the Bible used narrative and historical writings FOR THE POINT of educating Christians on how to become better Christians, not to give a "blow by blow" 21st century historical reporting. As such, the selected theological material of the Gospels IS FOR CHRISTIANS. The hearers of Mark, Matthew and Luke were Christians. They heard the parable of the sower and the seed. They clearly recognized the validity of the words of Christ, now given to them by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is teaching the Christians, through the Scriptures, what can happen to Christians. They saw this and experienced it first hand.

We do, today, Solo. We both know of people that the parable speaks of, in each case, supposedly saved individuals. We know of people who fall away in times of temptation, we know of people who turn to money or power, rather than CONTINUING to follow Christ, as they ONCE promised! We know this, the Christians of the first century knew this, and the HOLY SPIRIT included it in Sacred Scriptures for the express purpose of teaching "saved" Christians to BEWARE of it! To deny this is to deny your very own experiences.

2.

Now, the actual words of Scriptures...

First, Jesus gives the clue on WHY He taught this parable:

And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Luke 8:9-10.

The Apostles - and those whom they teach - have been given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God... others will hear, but not understand. Clearly, this parable is directed to Christians. The "saved". The POINT is for Christians who have already heard and accepted the Word!

Second, the parable itself. I will underline the parts of Scriptures that I would like to direct your attention to...

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience. Luke's version

--- The first group miss out on the opportunity to believe and be saved. Clearly, the part that follows, when speaking of "faith" and "believe", refers ALSO to "being saved". The context does not allow us to relegate the saved ONLY to the last group, because...

----the second group BELEIVES FOR AWHILE! If they believe, they are indeed saved. Jesus doesn't mention how long these people "believe for awhile". It could be years and years. They receive the word with joy, accepting the heart of the Gospel, and believe "for awhile". It is within context to say these people believed and were saved. However, they fall away in times of temptation

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. Matt 13:22

Again, the second group of peole. They receive the Word. We presume this person was indeed fruitful because of his joy mentioned in Luke. That God indeed is making this person fruitful and joyous, since joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5). But once he becomes involved in the care of the world, temptations, Luke calls them, the word becomes choked out and he THEN BECOMES UNFRUITFUL. It is not until he succumbs to temptation does he become unfruitful. He falls away.

He goes from joy from the Spirit, faith from the Spirit - to falls away.

Clearly, this parable was given to Christians to teach them, the saved, that they could and did fall away BECAUSE of worrying about the world and worldly temptations. This parable's EXPRESS PURPOSE is to DENY the idea that a Christian who had ONCE received the Word with joy could NOT fall away! Jesus Himself "predicts" that people remove themselves from the Kingdom (since Luke 8:9-10 states the parable is in regards to the Kingdom) by falling to temptation. Christians see it and continue to see it to this day. "Don't be one of them"...

Denying this ("they were never saved to begin with") merely denies the entire point of "eternal security", since no one knows if they, TOO, will succumb to the temptations of the world or persecution.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Read the Scriptures more carefully. Jesus says that unbelievers are CONDEMNED ALREADY.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

I don't see where it says that a person who is born is now condemned...

I see "he that does not believe" or "refuses to believe" is condemned. Jesus is not condemning the ignornant, but rather, those who reject Him and His message.

Those that are condemned already will remain condemned until they are born again, because only those who are born again will see and enter the kingdom of God.

By reading other Scriptures, I can agree with that.

But you have ignored the point that I made - that those who believed 20 years ago can stop believing and are now considered condemned... Those who do not believe (reject) - right now - are considered condemned.

Jesus is very clear in his teaching that one must be born of the Holy Spirit in order to see or enter the kingdom of God. Prior to being born of the Spirit, Jesus says that one is born of the water, the flesh.

I already addressed this and you have said nothing to refute that your interpretation is ridiculous. Jesus is not concerned with being born of the flesh. There is no POINT in mentioning being physically born - we ALL are, the saved and the damned. There is no existence WITHOUT being physically born, as you stated earlier in denial of a pre-existence of the soul, a la Mr. Origen and his Greek friends...

Jesus is speaking about being born from above. The first sentence is correct and true. The second one doesn't need to be said.

Per your referencing Martin Luther, unless one has documentation that Martin Luther had a low opinion of man, one should leave that slippery slope alone.

It's common knowledge and doesn't need to be "documented". Protestant theology is based upon a low anthropological view (while Christians prior had a high view of mankind). But let's leave that for now...

Also, Jesus’ teachings concerning His coming to save the condemned doesn’t show a low opinion of man, but a high reverence and respect for the Love of God Almighty having sent His only begotten Son to die for mankind’s sin.

Focusing on man's lowliness as the pinnacle of your theology expresses your denomination's low anthropological view. We know God came to save us because we couldn't save ourselves. However, we focus on God's Love, rather than man's inability to save himself. Man can be thought of very highly and still be unable to complete salvation alone. Your group focuses on "all works of man are but rags" "all have sinned and fall short" etc. THOSE are "your" verses of focus. Perhaps we could expand on this more in a different thread, but it is getting off topic.

Now concerning the comment “that God creates men for the express purpose of condemning them†is an incredulous take of John 3, especially when Jesus speaks of God the Father not sending Him to condemn the world, but to save the world.

I thought the same thing, which is why I mentioned it. Your focus is on all men are condemned when they are born. This implies that God creates man to condemn him, when we know this is not the case.

Note that since the transgression of Adam in the garden, all of his descendants have been born into sin. Not one single solitary human being has been conceived without sin. Read what King David thought concerning his conception.

I am aware of original sin. But it is man who condemns himself.

Jesus knows the condemned condition of mankind, and because the Father for so loved the world, He came to save the world; no ifs, ands, or buts about it. As Ripley says, "Believe it or not!"

Indeed - and that is the heart of the Gospel.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The alternative and correct interpretation is "born from above". Nicodemus expresses the confusion - since the words can mean "born again" or "born from above". He thinks Christ means "born again" by describing his disbelief in crawling back into the womb. (John 3:4) Jesus corrects Nicodemus by DIFFERENTIATING between things of the flesh and things of the spirit. He is speaking about something Nicodemus SHOULD KNOW!

Francisdesales,

Did you not read my entire posting where the complete definition of the Greek words γεννηθη (gennÄ“thÄ“) and ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthen) are given?

You make it appear that you are presenting something brand new concerning the meaning of γεννηθη (gennÄ“thÄ“) ἄνÉθεν (anÃ…Âthen) being “born from above.â€Â

Yes, I saw you mention both "born again" and "born from above". The context of John shows that Nicodemus was confused by which adverb Jesus was talking about - and the Christ promptly dismissed the "born again" idea by focusing on spiritual birth. That can only happen from above.

Regards

 

[boringtom]

In the Gospel of John, when Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus...John 3:5...(3)"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (4) Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (5)Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
So faith alone is not enough to attain salvation. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe - and tremble.
So what does faith provide? Why the emphasis on faith if it doesn't gain us entry into heaven with God?
In the 1st chapter, verses 12, 13, John says: (12)But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13)who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God.
Faith does not makes us children of God, but God gives to those with faith the right to become children of God.
So then if one has faith, and is baptized in water and born again of the Spirit, is salvation assured?
James 2: 20...But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Consider 1Corinthians 13: 13...And now abide faith, hope, love, these three: but the greatest of these is love.
Are we saved if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God sent for our sake, yet we don't truly love our fellow man?
2Peter 1: 5-11...(5)...giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, (6)to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, (7)to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness, love. (8)For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9)For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. (10)Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble: (11)for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
If we truly have faith in God the Son, that He came to earth and sacrificed himself so that we could be cleansed of our sins, then we accept him as our Lord. We have been freed from the law, but have becomes slaves to our Lord, our Savior. We will obey our Lord's will, His Gospel, out of love for Him, and not out of fear of the law. And it is our love of the Lord Jesus, and His love for us, that will help us enter through the narrow gate (Matthew 7: 13). His love for us has given us the power to become His children through faith and the doing of His will.
Matthew 7: 21..."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
And the Lord's will is, above all other things, love... that we love God, that we love the good, that we love our neighbor as ourselves. If we have love for God and for our neighbor, we will fulfill the law of the OT by that love, even though He has freed us from the law.
Romans 1: 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor: therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 8: 35...Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8: 38,39...(38)For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor power, nor things present nor things to come, (39)nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Jesus Christ our Lord.
But we can separate ourselves from God. We can do this through pride, greed, wrath, etc... We can separate ourselves from God and salvation through our flesh, through our failure to do the will of God in order to satisfy our immediate needs or desires. We are all subject to temptations of the flesh.
But Paul says in 1Corinthians 10: 13 ... but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way for escape, that you may be able to bear it.
But though we are able to resist, we may not always resist.
James 1: 12...Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
But it is the man who endures temptation who receives the crown, not the man who simply has faith. Even though a man has faith, has been baptized in water, born again of the Holy Spirit, and loves both God and his neighbor, he can fall to temptation in this world and be separated from God and lose his place in heaven.
And consider this: Hebrews 6: 4-6...(4)For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5)and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6)if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

 

[turnorburn]

This is how its written we don't come to Jesus, God the Father brings us to his Son.
Once in the masters hand he carries out his fathers wishes. Unless I missed something
We believers are the elect and who can stand in the way of Gods elect, it is the will
of God.

John 6: 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.

 

[XTruth]

This is how its written we don't come to Jesus, God the Father brings us to his Son.
Once in the masters hand he carries out his fathers wishes. Unless I missed something
We believers are the elect and who can stand in the way of Gods elect, it is the will
of God.

John 6: 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.

Great chapter and this passage has been used over and over. Let's look at the entire chapter. How about verse 27 where we are told to labor for eternal life? How about verses 60-69 where we see that many disciples were offend by the Word of God and walked w/ Christ no more, even though Jesus called them His disciples? Does Jesus call those that are not saved/born again His disciples. We can see what Jesus' definition of a disciple is a couple chapters later in John 8:31. Until Jn. 6:60, they were His disciples.

John 6:27
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
We are to labor for eternal life. The word ‘labor’ is translated from the Greek word ‘ergazomai,’ meaning to toil (as a task, occupation, etc.), (by implication) effect, be engaged in or with, etc.: commit, do, labor for, minister about, trade (by), word. Yes, that is correct; another way to summarize this verse is by saying we must work for eternal life. How true this is, as it is told to us throughout the Bible by command, word, implications, and examples (Jas.2:14-26). But the God of this world has blinded even the righteous as to the entirety of the glorious gospel of Christ, lest they believe sin condemns them as it has every other being through the ages and guard their faith even the more closely (1 Cor.1:18; 2 Cor.4:4).

This doesn’t contradict Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians one bit. It is true that, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:8-10).†We are saved initially from our sins by grace. No one or nothing can take away our sins except Christ. By this we are made righteous and have been given initial salvation. Only the righteous, or those without sin, will be saved at the end of life and given eternal salvation, as it is only a hope for the righteous at this time (Heb.3:6; 5:9). God is no respecter of persons and winks at the sin of no man (Eze.3:17-21; 18:20-32; 1 Pt.1:17). If you sin after becoming righteous, then you are now in the state of unrighteousness and condemned. Only past sins are forgiven, and you must make future confessions for future sins (Rom.3:25); but we are told to sin no more (Ex.20:20; Jn.5:14). Perfection is required for eternal life (Gen.17:1; Lev.11:44; Mat.5:48; 1 Pt.1:16), so the justification that we are only human, still sinners, and are only supposed to try for righteousness until we get to heaven is totally unscriptural and can’t be found anywhere in the Bible. If you sow to the flesh, you have passed from sonship into the arena of being His enemy (Gal.6:7-8; Jas.4:4; 1 Jn.3:8-10).

The following are the works of keeping salvation and the conditions of eternal life. Salvation isn’t kept and manifested as eternal unless you labor for it (Jn.6:27). We must also: come to Christ (Jn.6:37, 44, 45, 65); eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn.6:50-51, 53, 58); reap (Jn.4:35-38); hate (love less) the life in this world (Jn.12:25); know God and Christ (Jn.17:2-3); enter right gate (Mat.7:13-14); cause no offense (Mat. 18:8-9); keep commandments (Mat.19:17; Jn.8:31, 51); forsake all (Mat.19:27-29; Mk.10:28-30; Lk.18:28-30); live free from sin (Rom.5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Tit.2:11-14); continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom.2:7); sow to the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8); fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim.6:12, 19); be sober and hope to the end for it (Tit.1:2; 3:7; 1 Pt.1:5, 9, 13; Rom.8:24); endure temptations (Jas.1:12); let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn.2:24-25; 5:11-20); love everybody (1 Jn.3:14-15); keep yourself in the love of God, looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24); overcome sin (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21); be faithful unto death (Rev.2:10; Heb.12:14-15); believe and obey the gospel (Jn.3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40; 47, 54; 2 Cor.5:17; Rom.1:5); and be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn.3; 10:27-29).


HOW BOUT BOLDLY ADDRESSING ALL YOU ARE PRESENT...Okay, I will.

John 6:35-36
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

The ‘-th’ at the end of the word believe also shows that it is about presently doing it; if you aren’t using a KJV, then it will have an ‘-s.’ If it were only a one time act of obedience to come to and believe on Christ, then He would’ve said, “He that has come or has believed on me,†is assured to never hunger or thirst again. As it is, and stands forever by being the Word of God, the language used is in the present tense. This is something meant to do for all times. That’s the condition that must be obeyed in order to not be cut off or cast out. The word ‘cometh’ also means to go, to follow one. Evidently, it’s not a one-time transaction. There’s a permanent action involved. Salvation is conditional. You must stay committed to Christ and keep the faith, because some have already turned aside after Satan (1 Tim.5:15). Eternal life is only given to those who have kept His Word (Jn.17:2-6).

Here’s another concept. God gave bread, not Moses, but these people have all seen Jesus multiply bread and do all kinds of signs and still refuse to believe. They followed Him from sensual motives (Jn.6:26-27). How many professing Christ today are following Him for sensual reasons, like these people, instead of because He is the only way to God the Father? This would be the lover of the teachings of the false evangelists of the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. We have to keep eating bread to live, and keep on drinking to never thirst. A continuation and enduring of events, if you stop eating or drinking, then you die, simple concept.

John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse (6:37) is often used as a pillar to support the false doctrine the eternal security practitioners have erected. This pillar can be easily demolished by using the verse alone, without the contexts of the following verses. We’ll do that, and then elaborate with the following text to make sure this sleeping dog stays down. First, what’s Jesus mean by, “All that the Father giveth me come to me?†God doesn’t pick and choose whom He gives to Jesus. It’s His will that all are saved (1 Tim.2:4; 2 Pt.3:9; Rev.22:17). Many are called, but few are chosen (Mat.20:16). Same meaning since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His, have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desire’s.

Secondly, what does Jesus indicate when He says He’ll not cast out any who come to Him? Is He implying the impossibility of ever being cast out? No, as I’m about to show you, God has cast out many who belonged to Him. Did Jesus lie? No, He was speaking the truth of those who are His and who remain in Him. Jesus will always be faithful on His part to keep you if you’ll be faithful on your half by being kept through the conditions of complete obedience to the gospel program. The action taking place by the phrase, “him that cometh to Me,†is a continued action taking place until the last day (vs.39-40). Coming to Jesus once does not constitute an uninflected, unforfeitable relationship with God.

There’s a list too long to include all references of God casting away, casting down, casting out, and casting off all His children who rebelled against Him. I’ll give an example from both testaments to prove God deals with sin the same way throughout all times. 2 Kings 23:27 says, “And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.†John 15:6 says, “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.â€Â

God is faithful and the only grounds God has, in which He would have to cast us away, is if we had already cast Him off first (2 Chr.15:2). God has done everything He can do for the process of giving us eternal life. The ball really is in our court. Ezekiel 18:31 says, “Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?†Our dependency of remaining in Christ is relative to our obedience in casting away all our transgressions. By transgressing, we have cast away God’s righteousness. 1 Timothy 5:12 says, “Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.†Heb.10:35 says, “Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.†All of 2 Peter 2 is a must read for this topic. If we cast off our faith or confidence in the power of Christ to save, then God cast us away (Dt.11:26-28).

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. He would have said, ‘He will lose nothing.’ He also says all those who are His should be raised at the last day. All those who are truly His, by abiding in Him until the end, will be raised incorruptible. There’s no doubt about that (1 Cor.15:51-58). Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills (Jn.17:12).

This is the same meaning of verse 40 when Jesus says all of His sheep may have everlasting life. The word ‘may’ implies an indefinite. This is not the same meaning as ‘will,’ which suggest a definite happening. The word ‘will’ is used 3,746 times throughout the KJV Bible. The word ‘may’ is no mistake or misprint. Eternal life has been given as a conditional promise for all who are in Christ. We should all be His forever. We may all have unforfeitable, eternal life at the day of our Lord; but there’s no guarantee when the conditions are on our shoulders. This is why we have to meditate on Him constantly to keep walking in the Spirit so we don’t fall to the flesh (Gal.6:7-8).

And here is a few verses later...

John 6:60-69
Example of many disciples
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

There’s not an abundant of information zoomed in on this example of lost salvation; not like that of King Saul (1 Sam.9:1), the prophet Balaam (Num.22-24), or King David (2 Sam.11-12). There is however, enough information to conclusively prove that these disciples were saved by faith in Jesus, and then later lost, for they followed Him no more. These were saved men, for they were called ‘His disciples’ three separate times in this short passage (vs.60, 61, 66). No one who is unbelieving and not following after Christ has ever been called His disciple. Only those who believe and follow are saved, as all His disciples are. Two times, the words ‘believe not’ appear in verse 64, and once ‘believe’ is used in verse 69. This is from the Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ which does not solely mean they did not accept Him as Messiah; it also implies disobedience. If the idea expressed here was that they stopped believing all together who Jesus was, or never did in the first place (though they were called disciples of Jesus), then the Greek word ‘apistos’ would have been used, meaning; without faith, as an unbeliever, like a heathen or an Atheist.

In these disciples case, they may or may not have stopped believing He was Christ, as they had previously acknowledged. Whether they believed or not anymore is irrelevant since they stopped following. Jesus was saying in Matthew 8:22 that you must follow Him if you are to receive eternal life, “Let the dead bury the dead.†He confirmed this meaning in John 8:51 when He said, “If a man keeps My sayings, he shall never see death.†He is obviously referring to the spiritual death of one who doesn’t follow Him. Jesus said a little later that those who belong to Him, His disciples, will be thrown into hell with the sinners and unbelievers if they do not continue in Him (Jn.15:1-6).

So, three times our examples of lost salvations have been called ‘His disciples.’ In case there is a doubter who has justified this wording without embracing that they were really saved by the use of the language, here is the test of a genuine disciple. Jesus said in John 8:31, “If you continue in My words, then you are My disciples indeed.†These men were called disciples and saved by their faith in Christ and were following Him. To receive Christ and confess Him for only a moment brings the new birth, so those who believe for a while had grace to fall from (Jn.1:12; 1 Jn.5:1).

Matthew 8:12 confirms those lost disciples as men who were saved, but they let the devil come and take the word out of their hearts, lest they continue in Christ and be saved from the fate destined to him. Verse 66 says they walked no more with Christ. To stop doing something means you had to really be doing it in order to stop doing it. These ‘many disciples’ were not the twelve. The twelve were asked if they would stray away and depart from Him also. Peter replied by saying that there was no one else to go to who had the words of eternal life (vs.68; Jn.14:6; Acts 4:12). He believed Jesus was the Christ, and that Christ was the Son of the living God.

This is the confession to bring forth the new birth (Lk.18:10-14). Peter and the others did not stop following Him at that time, though they were offended because of Him later and forsook Him so that Scripture was fulfilled (Mat.26:31, 56; Mk.14:50). Sadly, we know that Judas never returned to Christ after He forsook Him (Ps.109:13; Mat.27:3, 5; Lk.22:3; Jn.17:12; Acts 1:25). They knew they would not receive eternal life without Him, even though they had already received initial salvation. The many disciples that followed Him no more were saved by receiving initial salvation by the forgiveness of their sins, and later condemned by ceasing to abide in Him until eternal salvation could be manifested (Jn.15:1-6; Heb.5:9).

 

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JOHN 3 is being used quite a bit. Lets take a closer look at those words...

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the bubba of all verses used for the case of the eternal security doctrine. The only passage that comes close to this is John 10:26-29. The holders of this doctrine believe our salvation is based directly upon the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. They believe everything about Christianity lives and dies on the person, not the teachings, morals, or example. They believe salvation is only on who He is and was. They believe, which is half true, that our salvation is only determined on recognizing Jesus to be the all and all, with nothing being required from us. They believe, unlike other religions, our faith is not based on the teachings, but upon the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They believe that everyone who believes Jesus is the Son of God can do whatever they want and still be righteous, like the laws that govern the universe, the law of righteousness (Rom.9:31), or the penalty that comes with the law of sin (Gen.2:17; Rom.6:23; 8:2, 12-13), has no affect on them. That’s not to say they don’t believe you should live righteous lives and sin no more (1 Jn.2:1), just like Scripture says, but they know there are people who still live in sin with the belief in the work of Jesus to redeem them; therefore, those rebels are still saved. The doctrine of conditional eternal security believes that all have been freed from the condemnation of past sin (Rom.3:25), but future sin will condemn you yet again until you repent once more (Jas.2:24). Lets investigate this verse further to see if any of this can be implied here.

The word ‘believeth,’ translated from the Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ is used 245 times throughout the New Testament; found here in this verse and in verses 15, 18, and 36. It’s used in these 245 verses with the meaning of having complete obedience to (Rom.6:11-23), being completely dependant upon (Rom.10:17), trusting wholeheartedly (Eph.1:13; Gal.5:16-26), believing the whole Bible as the same, collected truth (1 Tim.4:1; 2 Tim.3:16-17), being persuaded (2 Tim.1:12), to place confidence in (Heb.3:12-14), used for the definition of faith (Heb.11:1), and turning a 180 degrees to a new way of life. ‘Pisteuo,’ the Greek word for ‘believeth,’ is used in the present tense and denotes action as a process of faith that is to be continued in to receive the full benefits.

The Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ that is interpreted ‘believeth,’ comes from the Greek word ‘pistis,’ meaning one is persuaded of their moral conviction to the point of being completely loyal, unwavering, and unchangeable. The Greek word ‘pistis’ comes from the word ‘peitho,’ meaning one is convinced of the truth or lack of with all assuredness and confidence, by completely yielding and obeying. Stay with me, I’m getting to the point. The Greek language is very specific, having four separate words for love. There are several words for believe. This is important, so follow on.
The Greek word ‘apistia’ is translated ‘unbelief’ (Mk.6:6; Rom.3:3; Heb.3:12). It is used of people who failed to obey the Word. In other words, they may have mentally believed, but disobeyed. The Greek word ‘apeitheia’ is also translated ‘unbelief’ (Rom.1:30, 32; Heb.4:6,11). It also means disobedient to obeying the Word of God. The Greek word ‘apeitheo’ is translated ‘believeth not’ (John 3:36), and ‘believed not’ (Heb.3:18; 11:31).This word means to disobey. The Greek word ‘apisteo’ is translated ‘believed not’ (Rom.3:3; 2 Tim.2:13). It means disbelieve with the implication of disobeying. The Greek word ‘apistos’ is translated ‘unbelievers’ (Lk.12:46), and ‘unbelieving’ (Rev.21:8). It is the only word used of a solid disbelief of God or the acceptance of who Jesus is. No disobedience to the faith is implied since there is no faith to begin with. These people spoken about here are true unbelievers, Atheist.

As proved through this short and easy word study, we can see that believing is both an accepted fact and obeying those beliefs. Believing is a word that expresses action, and actions must be applied or God counts you with the unbelievers. Faith or believing, without action, is dead and worthless (Jas.2:17, 20, 26). All unbelief of God’s Word, whether that from an Atheist or a Christian that disobeys in even one commandment (Jas.2:10), is unreasonable, obstinate, rebellion, prejudiced, presumptuous, insolent, stubborn, self-willed, boastful, insensible, hardening, and deceitful.

 

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John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The emphasis of ‘verily, verily’ was to draw our attention to the condition of eternal life. We must be born again. In the following verse, Nicodemus asked the question, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?†Nicodemus misunderstood the concept of the rebirth, because he was thinking about a physical rebirth. Even today, most Christians don’t fully understand what being born again really means other than it means they’re saved from God’s wrath upon their sins. In the verses that follow, Jesus explains by telling him the rebirth isn’t physical, but spiritual. Reincarnation is a false doctrine and never taught in the Bible; so of course, we can’t be physically born again. The difference is, physical birth is a begetting, while our spiritual birth is an adoption (Rom.8:14-16; Gal.4:5; Eph.1:5). The word ‘again’ should wave a red flag, but most people don’t meditate on the Word long enough to understand the big picture.

The word ‘again’ means to do once more, another time, or anew. You can’t do something again if you haven’t done it once before. We are born with a spirit that has existed since we were conceived and will continue to exist in a conscious state for all eternity. Being born again simply means our spirit man is free from sin by the righteousness of Jesus. The death penalty from sin is no longer on us (Gen.2:17; Rom.6:23). The wages of righteousness is life. Our spirit, which existed since conception and was physically alive, was considered dead because of the death penalty passed on from Adam, though it was still consciously alive. Adam had the entire human race in his loins when he was made; for from him, came everyone through his seed. He was righteous at that time and so was the entire human race. When he fell to sin, the entire human race fell with him (Rom.5:12-21). Sin is passed on from man to man and that’s why Jesus was born guiltless and free from sin. His Father was not man, for He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mat.1:20). Even if Eve, alone, fell that day and Adam did not, then she would be guilty, but not her offspring. She would just be the means of carrying the sinless child until birth, since the curse of sin is passed on from the seed of man.

Knowing this will help you better understand the true meaning and significance of being born again. We were already given a spirit and after accepting the sacrifice of Christ for our behalf, we have been made righteous. We have been made righteous again, though born with the curse of sin and in a fallen, unrighteous state. So when were we ever righteous the first time? Put the pieces together yet? We were all in the loins of Adam by his creation and all were as he was, righteous. He fell and that’s why the second Adam came (1 Cor.15:45), to fix the mess of the first Adam and make everyone righteous again that loves Him more than the world (Jn.3:19; 1 Jn.1:5-6).

 

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John 3:15
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The ‘whosoever’ of verse 15 and 16 truly means, ‘whoever and whatever person.’ Anybody who receives Christ and believes on His name will be adopted as a son of God (Jn.1:12; 1 Jn.1:9). The same meaning of whosoever should be accepted when reading warnings given to all men concerning names being taken out of the book of life (Ex.32:32-33), breaking God’s law and being separated from Him after you’ve had Him (2 Jn.1:9), denying Jesus, whether saved or not (Mat.10:33), becoming an adulterer and a murderer who’s worthy of death (Mat.5:22,28), etc. God does not distinguish between people, whether it be a Hitler that seeks Him or a Billy Graham of the 1960’s that sins against Him (Eze.33:12-13). God is no respecter of persons in judgments or mercies (1 Pt.1:17).

This verse is somewhat of an opener for the most famous salvation verse in the Bible. It is a great salvation verse, maybe the best. The only problem with most understandings of these verses is that most people are basing their entire doctrine on these verses alone, when they should be factoring in all scriptures. There are two kinds of salvation. If you got the second, then you had the first. If you receive the first, you won’t necessarily receive the second.

The first salvation is talked about in these two verses. There aren’t any time consuming conditions on this salvation. You just have to have faith in the work of Jesus on your behalf by confessing your sins to God in Jesus’ name. It takes no work from you, it only takes the energy to gather thoughts in your head and speak to God with your voice, and is the easiest thing on earth to get. This is initial salvation. If you die at that moment, you do have eternal life and that is when you receive the full reward of salvation (Mat.19:29; Jn.6:27; Rom.6:22; Heb.3:14; 12:15-17). Salvation isn’t manifested until you die, or have become a Rapture saint, as all righteous children of God will be.

Unless you’re dieing when you receive Christ, like the man on a cross next to Jesus (Lk.23:43), then a lot happens between the time of being made righteous, and the time of death. Receiving righteousness is the easiest thing in the world; continuing in righteousness takes work. The good news is that it’s possible to live free from sin and obey the gospel completely (Jn.1:12; Rom.6:12-14; 1 Jn.2:2-5; 3:6). The demands of the Mosaic Law were just (Rom.7:12), but gave no power to obey. Having Jesus in heaven interceding for us and the Holy Spirit with us on earth, we have the ability and the authority to live victorious lives for God (Acts 1:8; 1 Cor.15:57; Heb.4:14-16).

The wording of verse 15 even suggest the same. Everyone who believes in Jesus should not perish This is true. There’s no reason at all that Christians should perish. We should all have everlasting life at the end of our life, but many backslide, become apostates, or are deceived by false teachers and false doctrine. God inspired the words of the Bible (2 Tim.3:16), so there should be no second guessing the words used by the KJV. If these two verses meant it was impossible to perish after believing on Jesus, then the passage would read, “That whosoever believeth in Him will not ever perish.†The Bible is full of conditions regarding continued salvation. Just because there’s none in these immediate verses doesn’t void the other scripture’s conditions.

 

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John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Hebrews 9:28 says, “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.†Jesus didn’t come to the world to condemn it, the first time. If God desired vengeance without warning on mans fallen state, then He could have done so without sacrificing His Son. But He is merciful and loves us all so much that He is exhausting every possible opportunity to bring us back to Him and out of condemnation. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a judgment coming on all who are condemned by unconfessed sin and refuse to let go of anything contrary to the Word of God.

Out of 138 names the Bible uses for Jesus, He is never named a name denoting vengeance or wrath. He is the Rock of Salvation (Dt.32:15), The Redeemer (Isa.59:20), The Lord of Righteousness (Jer.23:6), Sun of Righteousness (Mal.4:2), Physician (Mat.9:12), The Horn of Salvation (Lk.1:69), Salvation (Lk.2:30), The Good Shepherd (Jn.10:11), Captain of Salvation (Heb.2:10), and Eternal Life (1 Jn.5:20). But there is a name given Him that denotes judgment to the unrighteous. It is the Judge of Israel (Micah 5:1). This will happen at His second coming, but not just Israel, all men (Zech.14; Mat.25:31-46; Rev.19:11). Acts 17:31 says it best: “Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.â€Â

The entire world could be saved by Jesus. That’s His desire and He’s made the way of escape for us all (Rom.10:9-13; Heb.2:3). But that won’t happen because too many love the world (Jn.3:19; Lk.9:25; Tit.2:12) and won’t put Jesus’ will before there own desires (Rom.12:2; 1 Jn.5:4-5). Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord!†will enter His kingdom (Mat.7:21-23; Lk.13:24-27). Only those who do the will of the Father will be saved from the judgment of God the Son (Eze.3:20-21; 1 Jn.3:24). Believing has been in vain if you haven’t turned from the sin of this world (Jas.2:19). Jesus didn’t come to condemn the world the first time (Jn.3:17), but He is coming the second time to set up His kingdom on earth and judge the rebels (Mat.16:27; Heb.9:27-28; Rev.19:11-16). Even if you call Him Father now, He can’t trust you to help Him rule His kingdom in the eternal life (Dan.7:18; Rev.5:10; 20:4-6) if you can’t be trusted to obey the laws of His kingdom in this life. Through Him you might be saved; we are not definitely saved unconditionally. There are conditions to salvation.

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As seen in John 3:16, ‘believeth’ implies obedience. He that has faith in Christ and obeys His commandments is not condemned, but he that has no faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ is condemned. Also, he that has faith, but does not obey, is condemned. You can believe on Christ and either be condemned or justified as seen by our example of Lucifer, the fallen angels, Adam and Eve, and Israel (Eze.28:15; Jude 6-7; Gen.3:7; Ex.32:7-10). The only hope anyone has in receiving eternal salvation at the end of his or her life is Jesus (Mat.1:21; Acts 4:12). Anyone who won’t accept Jesus is already damned (Mk.16:16).


John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

This passage is of the condemnation of unbelievers, but the same condemnation can be brought to believers, as we will see. Condemnation is only brought by sin. There would be no judgment from God without the existence of sin. There would be no reason to fear God if it weren’t for His judgment on sin. The word ‘condemnation’ has been translated from the Greek word ‘krisis,’ which means judgment, or the basis for judgment, not the result of it. Loving darkness rather than light means they love their sin more than Jesus. This verse literally reads, “The basis of judgment is on men who love their sinful lifestyles more than God.â€Â

Observe the underlined end of verse 19 and what’s underlined in verse 20-21. All of this is referring to action. They are either doing evil or doing truth by their deeds. Ephesians 2:9 says salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. This verse has always been an escape goat for the eternal security Christians. Works don’t make us righteous, but they are the only way we can remain in righteousness (Mat.7:17-19; 12:33; Jn.15:1-18; Jas.2:14-26; Rev.2 – 3).

Examine whom Jesus is referring to in verse 20. He says ‘every one,’ which means whoever or whatever person; same meaning as whosoever in verse 15 and 16. This verse is specifically talking to nonbelievers as proved by the fact that the ones who do evil never go to the light. But Jesus uses such a broad spectrum with the words ‘every one,’ it makes me wonder if the same is implied for Christians. Couple that with John 14:15, 21 and I believe we have an answer. “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that lovet me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.†By God’s standards, if you do evil, you hate Him. If you don’t keep His commandments, you don’t love Him. So if you sin, you must not be righteous anymore (Eze.3:20; 18:24; 33:13).

 

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John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The first half of this verse is simple. We covered it in John 3:15-16. It’s a paraphrase of both verses, which tells us that there is no eternal life for anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as the only way to salvation and obey all of the commandments of the new covenant. The word ‘believeth’ is the Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ which is the same ‘believeth’ used in John 3:16, which implies obedience. I suggest reading that segment in verse 16 before reading on. Without implication, the two words ‘believeth not’, used in the second section of this verse, do mean disobedient. It’s the Greek word ‘apeitheo,’ which means to willfully disbelieve by not obeying. Initial salvation is quick and easy to receive; you just believe Jesus takes away sins and ask Him to do what you believe He does. After He has made you righteous, you must continue in righteousness to stay righteous. If you disobey His commandments, then you not only have lost eternal life, but you don’t know Him (1 Jn.2:3) or love Him (Jn.14:15, 21).

Paul has said in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that God does not appoint His children to wrath. John defined sonship in 1 John 3:8-10 by saying you belong to the devil if you sin, and God if you have no sin on your account (Eze.18:24). Ephesians 2:2; 5:6 confirm this by saying the ones who disobey are of their father, the devil. Lot was saved from God’s wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen.19:12-13), and Noah was saved from God’s wrath on the entire earth (Gen.6:6-8; Heb.11:7). Without an active faith manifested through obedience to the Word, it is impossible to please God (Heb.11:6-12). If you disobey God’s commandments, or sin, you are not a child of the living God, even if you once were, and the wrath God that’s in store for the world is upon you, also (Ex.32:33; Rev.20:11-15). This is the sum of all conditions to receive eternal salvation; obedience.

We broke this verse down a little, but it shouldn’t have had to be done. Before anyone ever told me salvation could be lost and before I ever did my first Greek/Hebrew word study, this verse stuck out at me like a sore thumb. Everyone knows John 3:16, but hearing the doctrines derived from that one verse assures me these Bible scholars never finished the chapter.

 

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How is it that the meaning of the parable of the sower sowing seed cannot be agreed upon? It is even further explained by Jesus.

Matthew 13:3-8
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

This is the parable of the sower sowing seed. This is one of the most well known parables taught in church, yet the meaning has escaped us. It’s not even a difficult parable to for man to interpret, despite all our doctrinal biases. But just incase, Jesus went on to explain it in verses 18-23. That’s how important it’s meaning is. Jesus placed so much worth in this parable that he implied all other parable interpretations will be rooted from this one (Mk.13:4).
This parable presents an illustration of the age of grace we now are living in. Presented here are four separate kinds of hearts that the Word of God lands on and the results that follow. The sower is Jesus. The seed is His gospel. The earth the seed lands on are the four types of hearts the Word will land on. The believers of eternal security will be shocked to learn that this parable shows a 75% rate of people receiving Jesus, but only a 25% rate of people who will go on to inherit eternal life.

The first kind of heart is compared to the wayside, which is a hard walking path. No seed thrown on a hard path will sprout roots and grow. The hardness of the path represents the hardness of the heart, which is also represented to express a person’s willingness to receive the Truth. So what happens to that seed? Verse 4 says birds eat them up so there are no more. Verse 19 explains the birds as Satan and his minions. They devour all the seed sown on that heart just in case there were a soft area and the seed took root to give life. This person represents a person who never has been saved.

The second heart is compared to a stony place where there is enough dirt to give life to the seed, but not for long. Verse 5 says the Word of God was received immediately and quickly had growth. This is the kind of convert who usually has made their choice to live for Christ at a crusade or camp meeting, but never sticks with this new life for long. Verses 20-21 confirm this by saying they did receive the Word of God quickly, or at that moment.

They did endure for a while, but the sun came up and scorched them. The sun represents tribulations and persecutions Christians must endure in order to survive (Mat.10:22). These people represent backsliders who left the faith due to tribulation (Acts 14:22) and persecution (2 Tim.3:12), which we must go through to enter the kingdom of God. If you can’t endure with patience (Rom.5:3) and you ever take the seemingly easy way out, then you aren’t saved anymore. Though you did receive the Truth once with joy. No unsaved man receives the Word of God and lets it take root in his heart, and remains unsaved. The last thing we hear about this type of person is that he was offended. That’s the Greek word ‘skandalizo,’ which means to be tripped up, enticed to sin, or apostasy. In the Bible, saved men are never once referred to by these words. He was saved and then was not.

The third heart where the Word of God is sown is compared to the ground where thorns grow. Verse 7 says the thorns grew up around this plant and choked it. Thorns don’t choke seeds, only seeds that have taken root and grown into plants. These people were saved. This is confirmed by verse 22, which says they heard the Word and received it. Their salvation is further confirmed by the result the choking thorns had on the plant. It became fruitless. This either means he had been producing fruit, or he hadn’t had the chance to yet. Makes no difference. Either way, he was a plant that took on life from receiving the gospel. If you become fruitless, God rejects you and cast you to hell (Jn.15:1-6). This man was saved, and then was damned by becoming barren.

The last seed was thrown on good soil. They heard and received the Word. The life giving seed of the Word of God produced life and produced fruit. Bearing fruit is the only way to maintain life in Christ. Many people come to Christ, but most fall away. The seed gives life and all who accept it will be free from the penalty of death as long as they abide in good ground and endure. You will automatically do this, if you obey the words of life (Jn.15:10).

Psalms 51:13 says, “Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.†Conversion is when you walk in a new direction. You put off the old man of sin and walk in the righteousness of God. James 5:19-20 says, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.†This verse is talking to the church, which are saved men. Is it possible to be converted more than once? This verse says, yes. Does a saved man need to be converted? No. If one of us walks a direction that is away from God, then we’re in sin, condemned again, and need to be converted again.

“Bride of Heaven, Pride of Hell,†a book by Ray Comfort, has jaw dropping, eye watering statistics that parallel this parable. He wrote that book in 1985, a four-day crusade obtained 217 decisions for conversion in Christ. According to a follow up on these converts from one of the members of the organizing committee, 92% fell away (page 60).

In 1970, a number of churches combined for a convention in Fort Worth, TX and secured 30,000 decisions for Christ. Six months later, the follow up committee could only find 30 going on in their faith (page 62). In 1996, a leading U.S. denomination published that during 1995 they secured 384,057 decisions for Christ, but retained only 22,983 in fellowship. They couldn’t account for 361,074 conversions. That’s a 94% fall away rate (page 62-63). These are people who believe Jesus is God and the all and all. The eternal security doctrine would have to stand firm that all these people will still go to heaven based on their moment of clarity. Nowhere in the Bible does it support this belief, though I am in no way doubting that all those people had enough saving grace faith in Christ to be saved from all their past sins at one point in time.

Matthew 13:20-21
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

This illustrates those who hear the Word and gladly receive it, like those at an altar call. But they have no strength of dedication, no root to endure, no stability to stand persecution, trial, temptation, and misunderstanding, which are sure to come. This is an obvious example of backsliding. Even the holders of the doctrine of eternal security will agree with me that all it takes to receive the saving grace required to be born again is to hear the Word and receive it. But like with all Scripture, we have another plain condition set before us for holding on to this saving grace. If we are offended by the Word, such as someone showing you hundreds of clear-cut verses saying you can lose your salvation when that isn’t the gospel you want to hear or receive, then you will lose your salvation. Many disciples were also offended by the Word and walked no more with Jesus (Jn.6:60-66). Just because you received Christ at some point in your life, doesn’t mean He’s still walking with you. The only reason for that is because you stopped walking with Him in His ways. No backslider has spiritual life leading to eternal life in them (Jn.15:1-6; Rom.8:12-13; Gal.1:6-8; 5:4, 19-21; 6:7-8; 2 Cor.11:3-4; 1 Thes.3:8; 1 Tim.5:11-15; 2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:6, 12-14; 6:4-12; 10:26-29; 12:15; Jas.5:19-20; 2 Pt.2:20-22; 1 Jn.3:8-10; Rev.3:5; 22:18-19).


Mark 4:3-9
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is the parable of the sower sowing seed. It’s one of the most taught parables; nonetheless, the implication has escaped us. No, not implication; this parable hasn’t implied anything. It’s absolutely straight forth in it’s meaning, but Jesus knew his doctrine (Mk.4:2; 2 Jn.9) would be interpreted wrong (vs.9). Jesus went on to explain this parable in verses 14-20. That’s how important it’s meaning is. Jesus placed so much worth in this parable that He implied all other parable interpretations will be rooted from this one (Mk.13:4), which has shown eternal security to be an absolute lie.

This parable presents an illustration of the age of grace we now are living in. Presented here, are four separate kinds of hearts that the Word of God lands on and the results that follow. The sower is Jesus. The seed is His gospel. The earth the seed lands on are the four types of hearts the Word will land on. The believers of eternal security will be shocked to learn that this parable shows a 75% rate of people receiving Jesus, but only a 25% rate of people who will go on to inherit eternal life.

The first kind of heart is compared to the wayside, which is a hard walking path. No seed thrown on a hard path will sprout roots and grow. The hardness of the path represents the hardness of the heart, which is also represented to express a person’s willingness to receive the truth. So what happens to that seed? Verse 4 says birds eat them up so there are no more. Verse 15 explains that the birds are Satan and his minions. He devours all the seed sown on that heart just in case there were a soft area and the seed took root to give life. This person represents a person who never has been saved.

The second heart is compared to a stony place where there is enough dirt to give life to the seed, but not for long. Verse 5 says the Word of God was received immediately and quickly had growth. This is the kind of convert who usually has made their choice to live for Christ at a crusade or camp meeting, but never sticks with this new life for long. Verse 16-17 confirms this by saying they did receive the Word of God quickly, or at that moment.

They did endure for a while, but the sun came up and scorched them. The sun represents tribulations and persecutions Christians must endure in order to survive. These people represent backsliders who left the faith due to tribulation (Acts 14:22) and persecution (2 Tim.3:12), which we must go through to enter the kingdom of God (Mat.10:22). If you can’t endure with patience (Rom.5:3), and you take the seemingly easy way out, then you aren’t saved anymore, even though you did receive the truth once with joy. No unsaved man is still considered unsaved when he receives the Word of God and lets it take root in his heart. The last thing heard of from this type of person is that he was ‘offended.’ That’s the Greek word ‘skandalizo,’ which means to be tripped up, enticed to sin, or apostasy. In the Bible, saved men are never once referred to by these words. He was saved and then was not.

The third heart where the Word of God is sown is compared to the ground where thorns grow. Verse 7 says the thorns grew up around this plant and choked it. Thorns don’t choke seeds, only seeds that have taken root and grown into plants. These people were saved, which is confirmed by verses 18-19, which says they heard the Word and received it. Verse 19 says sin entered in. That can only happen to a saved man since the lost are already in sin. Their salvation is further confirmed by the result the choking thorns had on the plant. It became fruitless. This either means he had been producing fruit, or he hadn’t had the chance to yet. Makes no difference. Either way, he was a plant that took on life from receiving the gospel. If you become fruitless, God rejects you and cast you to hell (Jn.15:1-6). This man was saved, and then was damned by becoming barren.

The last seed was thrown on good soil. They heard and received the Word. The life giving seed of the Word of God produced life and produced fruit. Bearing fruit is the only way to maintain life in Christ. Many people come to Christ, but most fall away. Life is given by the seed and all who accept it, will be free from the penalty of death as long as they abide in good ground and endure. You will automatically do this, if you obey the words of life (Jn.15:10). This parable proves that Jesus never taught eternally secure. If He did, then this parable completely contradicts that teaching.

Mark 4:12
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Acts 3:19 says, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;†So when does salvation come? It comes when you repent and have been justified from the guilt of all sins you’ve ever committed (Rom.3:25). James 5:19-20 says, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.†This verse is talking to the church, which are saved men. Is it possible to be converted more than once? This verse says, yes. Does a saved man need to be converted? No. If one of us walks a direction that is away from God, then we’re in sin, condemned again, and need to be converted again.

“Bride of Heaven, Pride of Hell,†a book authored by Ray Comfort, reports the disheartening truths of the converts who continue in the faith after receiving it. Sadly, the average seems to be around 4 to 5%. Ray writes, “Charles E. Hackett, the Division of Home Missions National Director for the Assemblies of God in the United States, said, ‘A soul at the alter does not generate much excitement in some circles because we realize approximately 95 out of 100 will not become integrated into the church. In fact, most of them will not return for a second visit (page 61)’â€Â

Ray also wrote, “In 1991, in Salt Lake City, organizers of a concert-encouraged follow up said, ‘Less than 5% of those who respond to an alter call during a public crusade…are living a Christian life one year later.’ In other words, more than 95% proved to be false converts.†The book said false converts, but that really means backsliders. False convert implies that they never actually turned to God. The time in between conversion and the falling away has nothing to do with salvation.


Luke 8:5-8
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is the parable of the sower sowing seed. It’s one of the most taught parables; nonetheless, the implication has escaped us, but this parable hasn’t implied anything. It’s absolutely straight forth in it’s meaning, but Jesus knew his doctrine (Mk.4:2) would be interpreted wrong (vs.8). Jesus went on to explain this parable in verses 11-15. That’s how important it’s meaning is. Jesus placed so much worth in this parable that he implied all other parable interpretations will be rooted from this one (Mk.13:4), which has shown eternal security to be an absolute lie.

This parable presents an illustration of the age of grace we are now living in. There are four separate kinds of hearts that the Word of God lands on presented here and the results that follow. The sower is Jesus. The seed is His gospel. The earth the seed lands on are the four types of hearts the Word will land on. The believers of eternal security will be shocked to learn that this parable shows a 75% rate of people receiving Jesus, but only a 25% rate of people who will go on to inherit eternal life.

The first kind of heart is compared to the wayside, which is a hard walking path. No seed thrown on a hard path will sprout roots and grow. The hardness of the path represents the hardness of the heart, which is also represented to express a person’s willingness to receive the truth. So what happens to that seed? Verse 5 says they are walked on and eaten by birds. Verse 12 explains the birds as Satan and his agents. He devours all the seed sown on that heart just in case there were a soft area and the seed took root to give life. This person represents a person who never has been saved.

The second heart is compared to a rock where there is enough dirt to give life to the seed, but not for long. Verse 6 says the Word of God was received and sprung up. This is the kind of convert who usually has made their choice to live for Christ at a crusade or camp meeting, but never sticks with this new life for long. Verse 13 confirms this by saying they did receive the Word of God with joy.

Verse 13 also says they believed for a while. The Greek word for ‘believes’ is ‘pisteuo,’ which means they had saving faith. For a time they were born-again believers. They had been set free from sin, but they didn't resist the temptation when they were enticed to sin (Jas.1:12-16). The word for fall away means they depart, desert, and withdraw. They became disobedient to God’s commandments. They got that way because they fell for the temptation of sin. The people, who say that the ones who fall away were never really saved, contradict God’s Word, because it clearly says they believed for a while. Plus you can’t fall away from something if you were never with it to begin with.

They did endure for a while, but the sun came up and scorched them (Mat.13:6) and the moisture dried up. The sun represents tribulations and persecutions Christians must endure in order to survive (Mk.4:17). This may be the lack of living water that only comes from remaining in Christ (Jn.7:37-38; Heb.3:12). These people represent backsliders who left the faith due to tribulation (Acts 14:22) and persecution (2 Tim.3:12), which we must go through to enter the kingdom of God. If you can’t endure with patience (Rom.5:3), then take the seemingly easy way out, then you aren’t saved anymore; though, you did receive the Truth once with joy. No unsaved man receives the Word of God and lets it take root in his heart. The last said about this type of person is that he was ‘offended.’ That’s the Greek word ‘skandalizo,’ which means to be tripped up, enticed to sin, or apostasy. Saved men are never once referred to by these words throughout the entire Bible. He was saved and then was not.

The third heart where the Word of God is sown is compared to the ground where thorns grow. Verse 7 says the thorns grew up around this plant and choked it. Thorns don’t choke seeds, only seeds that have taken root and grown into plants. These people were saved. This is confirmed by Matthew 13:22 which says they heard the Word and received it. Their salvation is further confirmed by the result the choking thorns had on the plant. It became fruitless. This either means he had been producing fruit, or he hadn’t had the chance to yet. Makes no difference. Either way, he was a plant that took on life from receiving the gospel. If you become fruitless, God rejects you and cast you to hell (Jn.15:1-6). This man was saved, and then was damned by becoming barren.

The last seed was thrown on good soil. They heard and received the Word. The life giving seed of the Word of God produced life and produced fruit. Bearing fruit is the only way to maintain life in Christ. Many people come to Christ, but most fall away. Life is given by the seed and to all who accept it. As long as they abide in good ground and endure in obedience to the entire gospel program, they will be free from the penalty of death. You will automatically do this, if you obey the words of life (Jn.15:10). Jesus has proved from this parable that not everyone is eternally secure after receiving Him.

Matthew 18:3 says, “And said, Verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.†Conversion is when you walk in a new direction. You put off the old man of sin and walk in the righteousness of God. So when does salvation come? It comes when you repent and have been justified by all sins you’ve ever committed (Rom.3:25). James 5:19-20 says, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.†This verse is talking to the church, which are saved men. Is it possible to be converted more than once? This verse says, yes. Does a saved man need to be converted? No. If one of us walks a direction that is away from God, then we’re in sin, condemned again, and need to be converted again.

A book authored by Ray Comfort, “Bride of Heaven, Pride of Hell,†has many disturbing statistics about people making decisions to follow Christ for all eternity. He says there was a pastor who traveled to India every year since 1980 (I believe Pastor Ray’s book came out in 1992). The pastor told him that he saw 80,000 decision cards for Christ stacked in a hut in the city of Rajamundry, the results of past evangelistic crusades. But he maintained that one would be fortunate to find even 80 Christians in the entire city (page 63).

He also wrote about a mass crusade reporting 18,000 decisions for Christ, yet according to Church Growth Magazine, 94% failed to even become incorporated into a local church (page 62). If converts fail to grow, they cease to live. Eternal life isn’t given to those who fail to live for God, regardless of having a day when they had an experience with God and never stopped believing in Him. God isn’t looking for people to believe He’s real. There’s plenty of those (Rom.1:19-20). He wants people who will follow Him (Mk.8:34; Jn.12:25-26; 15:14; Rom.1:29 – 2:3).

Luke 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

This illustrates those who hear the Word and gladly receive it, like those at an altar call. But they have no strength of dedication, no root to endure, no stability to stand persecution, trial, temptation, and misunderstanding, which are sure to come (Mat.10:22). This is an obvious example of backsliding. Even the holders of the doctrine of eternal security will agree with me that all it takes to receive the saving grace required to be born again is to hear the Word and receive it. But like with all Scripture, we have another plain condition set before us for holding on to this saving grace. If we’re offended by the Word, such as someone showing you hundreds of clear-cut verses saying you can lose your salvation when that isn’t the gospel you want to hear or receive, then you will lose your salvation. Many disciples were also offended by the Word and walked no more with Jesus (Jn.6:60-66). Just because you received Christ at some point in your life, doesn’t mean He’s still walking with you. The only reason for that is because you stopped walking with Him in His ways. No backslider has spiritual life leading to eternal life in them (Jn.15:1-6; Rom.8:12-13; Gal.1:6-8; 5:4, 19-21; 6:7-8; 2 Cor.11:3-4; 1 Thes.3:8; 1 Tim.5:11-15; 2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:6, 12-14; 6:4-12; 10:26-29; 12:15; Jas.5:19-20; 2 Pt.2:20-22; 1 Jn.3:8-10; Rev.3:5; 22:18-19).

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

Yes, and not a twisting of the Scripture as done in your cherrypicked snippet from James that is lifted totally out of it's context as a pretext for your own presupposition.

Wow, is that the pot calling the kettle black.

Wrong! It's correcting a really bad eisegesis.

Now, lets take a look at the context James is speaking of, being, that James is speaking of those who make a profession of faith, which is not justified, ie-proven, in their deeds.

James is not speaking of how one is justified in the eyes of God, but how one's profession is proven, justified in the eyes of men.

No, he's not. This is the typical Calvinist line

Wrong again, it's not a "typical Calvinist line", it is what a correct hermenuetical exegete of the passage when read in context shows.

and the ENTIRE passage taken in context debunks your assesment.

Wrong again, as has already been demonstrated.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Notice, James lays down the context from the beginning, of a declaration or profession of faith that is made before men.

What I notice is you "snipped" half of verse 14 and put it with verses 15-17. It should read "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James (RSV) 2)

No, I didn't "snip" anything. I stated that verse 14 lays down the context of the kind of faith James is speaking of is merely a "said faith", a mere profession of faith, and said that James is correct, that kind of faith cannot save anyone, which is what the part you are confused on being left out says.

In context, the red highlighted above is properly a part of verse 14 because it is referring to the "faith" earlier in the verse.

Yes, and James is speaking of a very specific kind of faith, laid down in the opening verse, which is a mere profession of faith, which I agree that kind of faith is dead.

Here are my exact words:

And James is right, a mere profession of faith made to men, that is not justified, that is proven through their actions is a dead profession.

I wonder why you would do that....hummmmm.

Please learn how to read what is actually said, in context so you don't go chasing ghosts.

What do you think the answer to this rhetorical question is? Yes?

What rhetorical question would that be?

James is not talking about a "declaration or profession of faith that is made before men" ONLY, he simply asks "if someone says he has faith, but does not have works, can his faith save him?"

Oh, but James described a very specific kind of faith, note the kind of faith James is addressing:

"If a man SAYS he has faith.....[/s]". James is speaking of those who go around telling people they have faith, which is indeed making a profession of faith before men.

I'm sorry that you cannot get past your eisegesis to see the context James is speaking in.

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

[quote="dadof10]Not "can his false faith..." or "can his SAID faith...".[/quote]

Actually, that is exactly the kind of faith that James is describing.

In fact, the KJV has "can faith save him?" There is no contextual reason to believe this "profession" was ONLY before men

Of course there is, you keep overlooking the context of the kind of faith James is describing, which is a SAID faith.

What does the words, "If a man SAYS he has faith", mean to you?

You see, words have meaning, and when James begins by describing someone who "SAYS" they have faith, which is telling people they have faith, which is making a profession or declaration of faith, that means making a profession of faith, telling people, even boasting that they have faith.

or that the believer was not sincere when the profession was made

Sincerity has nothing to do with it, as James goes on to say that their profession of faith is not supported by their actions/works.

or that he's not talking about a true faith.

In reality, James is contrasting by juxtaposition, those who makes claims(SAYS) of faith, but their lives(works) do not prove(justify) it.

This is truly a reach.

No, when exegesis is employed, reading the text in it's context, that is exactly what James is saying.

Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,†but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James is speaking in a very specific sense or context of "faith", being a mere profession made before men.

How do you get that from the text? Perhaps from a preconception?

No, James tell us from the start the kind of faith he is putting in juxtaposition to genuine faith.

Remember, James opens by describing the kind of faith he is speaking of:

"If a man SAYS he has faith[/s]"

Go check the dictionary and see what the word, "SAYS" means.

Then consult a thesaurus, and see the synonyms.

To SAY something, means to make a profession, a declaration, to make a claim, orally, to one's audience, ie-people.

This must be understood or else you end up pitting James against Paul and against all of Scripture to the contrary position you assert.

Scripture speaks in many places of losing ones faith. (Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27) "All of Scripture" doesn't agree with you.

Wrong, and your just saying so does not make it true. Those passages do not say the genuine believer loses his faith at all.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works.

That entire passage of James is in the context of people making professions before men, not justification in the eyes of God..

This verse says the exact opposite of your assertion. "But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†The person "making professions before men" are the people who are doing the works, not the ones "having" faith.

How in the world did you come to that conclusion when James specifically describes those who say they have faith but no works to demonstrate it???

I'm afraid that you have seen the direct opposite of what James says.

And James is right, a mere profession of faith made to men, that is not justified, that is proven through their actions is a dead profession.

Good of you to agree with James.

I never said I didn't agree with James, it is YOU and your terrible eisegesis that is disagreed with.

So, yes we do need to look at the Scriptures in their context instead of lifting a cherrypicked snippet in which you read your own preconceptions into them.

Whoooaaa, there, big fellah....I don't think James is done with this subject, do you? What about verses 19-26? For all the complaining about "snippits" you sure are doing a lot of snipping. Let's keep going.

No, no "snipping" at all. I used the appropriate verses to demonstrate that you have read the semi-pelagian presupposition into James where it does not exist.

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. (James (RSV) 2)

It's obvious by these verses, taken in context, that both faith and "works" are necessary for justification, which is what the next verse says.

That is not saying that works are "neccessary for justification" at all.

You keep forgetting, or rather, overlook the context of the word, "justification" James is speaking of.

James is not speaking of justification in the eyes of God, but is speaking of a profession of faith that is proven to men through their deeds.

 

[Good News Brown]

Jesus VERY CLEARLY says that people DO fall away - and are subsequently condemned. Where? Try first the parable of the Sower and the Seed. The seed is the Word, the Gospel. Note how some receive the Gospel and have faith and are joyous to begin with but LATER, because of the worries of the world, fall away and LOSE faith. They fall away.

It doesn't say that francis. It says, 'As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the desire for riches choke the word and it proves unfruitful.' This is not saying they are saved and later fall away. Read it carefully. In every instance but the last, the man hears but he doesn't understand. In the first instance - what was sown on rocky ground - this is he who hears the word, and immediately receives it with joy. Obviously he is overjoyed. But does he understand? No. He might like what he is hearing. But many people believe things they don't fully understand.

I received Jesus twice before becoming saved. The first time, in high school, I liked the idea of going to Heaven, so I said 'why not'? A couple of days later I told my old friend who presented the Gospel to me that it wasn't for me. The second time was at a high school summer retreat. At the end of the week, everyone in our cabin was told to either put your rock in the cup (accepting Christ), or not (rejection of Christ). While they meant well, there was the obvious peer pressure. Not wanting to be the odd man out, I placed a rock in the cup to everyone's joy. When we got back, I got baptized in a swimming pool. A week or so later, I told the councilor the same thing I told my old friend.

About 4 years later, I got saved........

 

[XTruth]

[

I'm not sure how you believe what you write about James 2, but I'm not here to tell you your interpretation of Scripture is wrong, Ill just post what I see when reading Jas.2. In case you don't read it all, know that Abraham was continually justified by his obedience to God 40-50 years after he was justified in Gen.12:1-3; 15:5. The event of almost sacrificing Isaac happened decades later in Gen.22. The whole point of James 2 is to prove that justification is for those who believe and obey, not just believe only. For those beings who believe, but don't obey, whether demons, fallen angels, or humans, they are not justified, even if they profess Christ while sinning.

1 Pt.4:17-19
"17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator."

Heb.5:9
"9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

2 Thes.1:8
"8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"






James 2:22-25
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Christians can deceive themselves by being hearers of the Word only, without being a doer of the Word. Man is not justified by faith alone, but also by works. This is the message throughout the Bible. Faith without action is dead, just as much as the body is dead without the soul. Likewise, just as dead as the spirit is without the renewal of the Holy Spirit, so is faith without works.

We’ve already been given an example from verse 19 that shows how believing in God is worthless without obedience. The angels were justified in the sight of God before they rebelled, but justification dies without the works of obedience to righteousness. Now we’re given the righteous man Abraham as an example who was justified by God when he had offered up his son Isaac on the altar. Had he refused to obey, it would have demonstrated that he had no faith in God or His Word. It is also clear that this act of faith and work was not his initial justification by faith, for this event is written about in Genesis 22:5-10.

“Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran (Gen.12:1-4).†“And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness (Gen.15:6).†There were 40 to 50 years separating the two justifications between Geneseis 15 and Genesis 22. Thus, every act of obedience is an act of faith and works combined to maintain justification before God.

It is then, that faith in God does bring His saving grace upon one’s soul, but in order to receive eternal justification when you leave this earth, you must continue in obedience. The only difference between the demons belief in God and Abraham’s was the willingness to submit the free will to God instead of putting the authority of the creation above the Creator. Some may be familiar with Romans 4 and be confused by it, as it looks like a contradiction. Here’s the passage: “What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom.4:1-5).â€Â

The Romans example Paul gave was to make it clear that Abraham was not justified by the deeds of the Mosaic law, seeing how he was justified 430 years before the law was given (Gal.3:17). Verse 5 of Romans 4 says that God imputes righteousness without works, based solely on faith. That is the initial salvation given without works, for nothing we can do on our own merit will make us sinless (Eph.2:8-9), but remaining sinless is what our work is, which is done by obeying Jesus’ commandments (Jn.8:31, 51). That is how you walk life holy and receive eternal salvation (Gal.6:7-8; 1 Pt.1:16).

Before Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac, did he or did he not believe God? We have seen from history that he did (Gen.12:1-4; 15:6). So then, it must be accepted that continued obedience to God is demanded for continued justification; that is the trade off. And if it was by hearing and following the words of God that He was justified, then what would be his spiritual condition if he rebelled from obedience? Would he continue to be righteous through his transgression?

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness (Rom.6:15-16)?†“Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin (Jn.8:34).†Verse 23 says that Abraham was called a friend of God. Do you see that all who have faith in God and His Word are called a friend to God, if they believe they should hear Him and obey Him through life, or even to their death? “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you (Jn.15:14).â€Â

James 2:11-12
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

For those who believe all who profess Christ will be judged differently than those who don’t profess His name, you are deceived. The judgment before God at the end of the Millennium reign of Christ will be a mixed group of believers and unbelievers (Mat.7:21-23; Rev.20:11-15). All human beings with unconfessed sin left on their account at the time of their physical death will all be among the wicked (Jas.4:4). The judgment seat of Christ is only for the believers that endured temptation (Jas.1:12), and became overcomers in Christ (Rev.2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-28; 3:5, 12, 21; 21:7). If you’re a Christian that’s fallen short, then repent, lest the One you profess comes to fight against you with the sword of His mouth (Rev.2:5, 16, 21-22; 3:3, 19). (For the judgment seat of Christ, refer to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 of this book).

It has already been established in this chapter that showing any degree of partiality and injustice in judgment, then you become a transgressor of God’s law (Jas.2:9), which brings forth spiritual death at that moment (Jas.1:15; 1 Jn.3:4). But what are the laws of God, or the law of liberty? The law of liberty refers to the new covenant, not the old. The Law of Moses was faulty (Heb.7:12, 18-19, 22; 8:6-7), but the new law is perfect and consists of three main laws that all Christians must align their lives to if they expect to receive the eternal reward. Look these up and live by them: the law of mercy (Mat.5:7), the law of forgiveness (Mat.6:14-15), and the law of sowing and reaping (Gal.6:7-8). These laws are what men of this age will be judged by.

James 2:17…20…26
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Many compassionate people with a great deal of income and resources do an immeasurable amount of humanitarian work. I know Oprah Winfrey is among those who give graciously, but she has no faith, so they are dead works. I know she professes Christ as a way to heaven, but she also believes there are millions of other ways to heaven; making the blood of the only begotten Son of the only God a worthless thing in her life. I use her name so people will identify, but she is only one of millions who believe this lie. Billions of people do have millions of different beliefs and faiths, but the only faith accepted by God unto eternal life is the faith of the gospel truth.

Just as works without faith is dead, so is faith without works. If you say you have a belief, but do not live your life according to that believe, then your belief is dead, as is your spirit man (Jn.15:1-6). You can’t have one without the other. You can have a car that’ll get you to your destination, but without fuel it is worthless for a journey. You can have fuel, but without a car to put it in, it also becomes valueless. So it is that a belief without obedience is worthless and won’t get anyone to the destination they desire.

James 2:19
Example of demons
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This sixteen-word verse is all we even need to annihilate the doctrine of eternal security as unbiblical. Believing in God is no proof that you are justified by faith alone, for even the demons believe without justification. The Greek word ‘pisteuo’ is the one used for ‘believe,’ even though there is six different words for the word believe in the Greek language. This is worth noting because ‘pisteuo’ is exactly the same word used in the most widely quoted verse in the arsenal of the “once saved, always saved,†which is John 3:16. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.†You say it only takes a mere acceptance of knowing God is truth, even the demons accept this as true.

‘Pisteuo’ is used in the present tense and denotes action as a process of faith that is to be continued in to receive the full benefits. The Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ that is interpreted ‘believe,’ comes from the Greek word ‘pistis,’ meaning one is persuaded of their moral conviction to the point of being completely loyal, unwavering, and unchangeable. The Greek word ‘pistis’ comes from the word ‘peitho,’ meaning one is convinced of the truth, or lack of, with all assuredness and confidence, by completely yielding and obeying. Believing is a word that expresses action and actions must be applied or God counts you with the unbelievers. Faith or believing, without action, is dead and worthless (Jas.2:17, 20, 26).

There are too many clear verses that express this fact without word studies. When reading the Bible, you have to understand it collectively, not just by using certain verses. Jesus didn’t tell us to believe He was the Messiah, for the kingdom of God is at hand. He told us to repent and believe, which means to believe, obey, and follow the gospel (Mat.4:17; Mk.1:15). He also tells us that we aren’t his disciples, or His sheep, if we don’t keep His commandments. We don’t even love Him or know Him if we don’t obey His commandments and follow Him (Mat.7:21-23; 8:22; 9:9; 16:24; 19:21; Mk.2:14; 6:1; 8:34; 10:21; Lk.5:27; 9:23, 57-62; 18:22; Jn.1:43; 8:31, 51; 10:4-5, 27; 12:25-26, 35-36; 21:19, 22; 14:15, 21-24; 15:10). We can’t leave out other clear conditions of salvation and just point to a couple that fits into our preconceived notions. We have to interpret Scripture with Scripture; it is the only way.

The word ‘demon’ isn’t found anywhere in the Bible. This title comes from the Greek words ‘diamonion’ and ‘diamon,’ meaning evil spirits or devils. Demons are disembodied spirits that do not seem to be capable of operating in the material world except through the possession of the bodies of men or beasts. Most people believe that demons were the holy angels of God that rebelled with Lucifer. If this is true, then they were created sinless, in God’s favor and grace, and lost the eternal life they once had. Some believe these beings to be the spirits of the giants from the Old Testament, an inbred being, half human being, and half angelic being (Gen.6:1-4; Num.13:33; Dt.1:28; 2:10-11, 19-21; 3:11-13; 9:2; Josh.11:21-22; 12:4; 13:12; 14:12-14; 15:8; 18:16; Job 16:14; 26:5; Ps.88:10; Pro.2:18; Isa.17:5; etc.). Whether once possessing eternal life by being created perfect, or born damned by the ungodly and unnatural genetic engineering caused by the fallen angels impregnation of human women, one thing is for certain; they believe as we do, yet are still damned to eternal hell from their own admission of being worthy of punishment (Mat.8:29; Mk.5:9; Lk.8:28-32). Many are now in the abyss (Rev.9). Rebellion against God’s ways is the fast track to hell, whether be an angelic being, a human being, or a hybrid of both.

 

[mondar]

James is not speaking of justification in the eyes of God, but is speaking of a profession of faith that is proven to men through their deeds.

Your post was correct. The term δικαιοÅÄαι (justified) in James 2:24 has a semantic range. The term does not always speak of justification in the sense of salvation. (If needed I can easily defend that statement scripturally). The think being justified in James 2 is not the person, but the persons claim to have faith. A person can claim to have faith when he can demonstrate that faith by his works.

It is often easy to see this when looking at verse 18. Verse 18 is a key verse in understanding the context.

18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
The context can be called the "show me" context. Verse 18 hypothetically has two different people. Both of them say they have faith. One person has no works, one person has works.
Which person can justify his claim to have faith? Of course the person with works.

In verse 18 the last part of the sentence has not be noted. The person who has works, what does he do with his works? He shows his faith! How else can the phrase "I by my works will show thee my faith" be read? So then the person in verse 19 who has faith like a demon is the same as the person who claims to have faith, but cannot show his faith.
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,

The person who turns away the brother might "say he has faith," but he cannot justify that claim by showing his faith by works.
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,

Verse 14 begins the hint at the contrast of the saved person who can demonstrate his faith, and the unsaved who cannot prove his has an actual faith.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
Is "saying" we have faith enough to save? No! The text ends "can that faith save him?" Never!

CONCLUSIONS
This is the whole point of the discussion. The person who does not believe in the security of the believer usually will accept any easy believism claim of faith. All you have to do is pray the sinners prayer. Just say the right words. Are you then saved? Not really. But the person who claims faith can and absolutely fall from his so called easy believism salvation.

Your reading of James 2 is absolutely right. I also notice you understand that the passage is not teaching faith and works, but a faith that results in works. The distinctions are necessary.

 

[turnorburn]

X truth says:Great chapter and this passage has been used over and over. Let's look at the entire chapter. How about verse 27 where we are told to labor for eternal life? How about verses 60-69 where we see that many disciples were offend by the Word of God and walked w/ Christ no more, even though Jesus called them His disciples? Does Jesus call those that are not saved/born again His disciples. We can see what Jesus' definition of a disciple is a couple chapters later in John 8:31. Until Jn. 6:60, they were His disciples.

Jesus is the Good Shepherd his sheep hear his voice and follow him. What does a
Good Shepherd do when one of his sheep goes astray?

Thanks,
turnorburn