Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[Saint_Iguanas]

It's obvious by these verses, taken in context, that both faith and "works" are necessary for justification, which is what the next verse says.

No, what is obvious is that James is drawing a distinction between someone who "says" they have faith but that it is not proven out by their deeds, and those who can prove their faith through their works.

[quote:8avetkdd]Would you say, along with James, that Abraham was "justified by works"?

James does not say that Abraham was justified in the eyes of God by works, as you wrongly read a works based salvation into that snippet.

James and I are in agreement that Abraham was not justified before God by his works, but by faith.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.â€Â

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.(James (RSV) 2)

James is describing those who's profession is proven out(justified) before men, not justification, or being made just in the eyes of God.

Completely in context. And as an exclamation point, one more example of justification by works done in faith

No, totally out of context.

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, James is describing that Rahab's faith was demonstrated and proven by her deeds.

we need to cooperate with the Grace of God in order to be justified.

Typical Roman Catholic answer.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.â€Â

[/quote:8avetkdd]

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

Solo…
Agreed, for the most part. The language used “secured†is not agreed with. The Holy Spirit is a down payment, an earnest, first fruits of salvation, not something that guarantees salvation

I'm afraid that the Word of God disagrees with your assessment above.

2 Corinthians 1

12 For our boasting is this: the testimony of our conscience that we conducted ourselves in the world in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom but by the grace of God, and more abundantly toward you. 13 For we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end 14 (as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

15 And in this confidence I intended to come to you before, that you might have a second benefit 16 to pass by way of you to Macedonia, to come again from Macedonia to you, and be helped by you on my way to Judea. 17 Therefore, when I was planning this, did I do it lightly? Or the things I plan, do I plan according to the flesh, that with me there should be Yes, Yes, and No, No? 18 But as God is faithful, our word to you was not Yes and No. 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by usâ€â€by me, Silvanus, and Timothyâ€â€was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes. 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

The question is not whether one's salvation is assured, and accomplished solely by God who is Faithful as Paul says, but whether one is truly established in Christ.


2 Corinthians 5

[quote:3lhnovg9]1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

I will address all you have said to me, but let me first ask you what Bible you read from. I use the KJV and neither 2 Cor.1:22, nor 2 Cor.5:5 end with "as a guarantee" in my Bible.

I use the New King James.

As a matter of fact, let me address those passages; the last verse from the 2 Cor. 1 passage and then the verse of 2 Cor.5:5 itself, then we can move on....

2 Corinthians 1:24
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
It is by faith that saved men will stand forever. But here’s the kicker; faith has to be continued in by obedience to the Word if you expect to abide with God forever.

Where you are making a fatal mistake is you are describing a faith that is of human origin, when Scripture clearly teaches that faith is the gift of God, that is given, as Augustine says, "So that believers can and do believe and continue to believe because it is God who gives the gift and increases the gift".

The benefits of faith won’t remain if you discontinue the practice of your faith. The word ‘faith,’ as used in this verse, comes from the Greek word ‘pistis,’ which means one has constancy in their profession by the walk in obedience toward Christ, who they rely on for salvation. The word for ‘stand’ comes from the Greek word ‘histemi,’ which means abide, continue, covenant, appoint, establish and hold up. So it is by a constant obedience that one is held up in the covenant with Christ.

And all of that is performed by God for and in the believer.

It is God's Work, not mans.

2 Corinthians 5:5
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the earnest of excepting Christ as the only sacrifice for sin, which is also what Ephesians 1:13-14 says; a favorite of the holders of the doctrine of eternal security. It says, “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.†The word ‘earnest’ comes from the Greek word ‘arrabon,’ meaning earnest money, pledge, or first-payment. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of adoption. Sonship through this phase of the Spirit in the life of a believer is the first-payment or first-measure of the Spirit and of our inheritance until the fullness of the Spirit is received and the fullness of redemption is complete (Rom.8:17-24; 2 Cor.1:21-22; 1 Pt.1:4-13). 1 Thessalonians 5:19 tells us to not quench the Spirit. That means we are not to extinguish or let Him go out.

Oh, but that "earnest" or "pledge" is a deposit that seals, as Paul says in chapter one, that does guarantee that the promise is good.

The Holy Spirit is the only guarantee, not eternal life

You cannot have a guarantee by seal and earnest pledge on a promise, that excludes eternal life because the promise includes eternal life.

You see, your construct has God making a promise, then sealing that promise with an earnest "pledge", and then does not make good on His Promise.

(Heb.5:9; Jas.2:24-26; 1 Pt.1:9), but even the Holy Spirit can be taken away for sinning. “And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him (Judg.16:20).†“But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him (1 Sam.16:14).â€Â

[/quote:3lhnovg9]

Both of those are describing the Holy Spirit empowering Samson and Saul for service, that is to empower them to accomplish what God determined for them to accomplish according to His purpose.

The context is not the Indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit Who is the guarantee that the Promise God makes of Eternal Life is good.

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

Paul teaches the saints in Ephesus of the great work of God in Election and Preservation of the saints.

Ephesians 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earthâ€â€in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here we have a glorious truth, that salvation, from beginning to end is accomplished by God and God alone, "to the praise of His Glory", with the Holy Spirit indeed being "the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession", ie-the Resurrection of the body at the Second Coming of Christ.

------------------------------
X- wrote-
Again, what Bible are you using that has translated the word "earnest" to "guarantee" in Eph.1:14?

Earnest means guarantee.

I know doctrinal bias when I read it.

WOW, you must be praised for that. You really are special aren't you. Boy, that really strengthens your position, eh?

NOT! ;)

Having the Holy Spirit is no guarantee of salvation.

Of course He is, or God's Promise is worthless.

The Holy Spirit is a deposit on the Promise, sealing with the full Authority of the One who made the Promise, guaranteeing that what is Promised will be good to the completion of the Promise.

The Holy Spirit was taken fron Saul (1 Sam.16:14), Samson (Judg.16:20), and David knew this to be true (Ps.51:11). Let's break those words down in the original Greek form and do some cross referencing to see if the O.T. just had different standards.

Already addressed.

"These are not the droids you are looking for, move along."

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

These verses are often used as assurance of salvation verses

WOW, you do have a way of stating the obvious.

but no one has this assurance unless they meet God’s terms of the covenant.

Oh, but the Covenant is Unilateral, written in the Blood of Christ.

It is what God does for man that he cannot do for himself, which is to reverse the curse of sin, make fallen creatures who were obstinate against God, haters of God, indeed the enemies of God, into a right standing with God on account of Christ and His Righteousness.

Our names have been signed for us in the book of life when we repent and believe the gospel (Mk.1:15), but the contract is void and nullified if the conditions aren’t met: “And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Ex.32:33).â€Â

Ok, so you want to be inherently just by keeping the Old Covenant.

But God has a much better plan:

Romans 3

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Christ did what the Old Covenant could not do, which is make you righteous.

Fine, you are perfectly free to give it a shot.

Just remember, you have to keep it all, perfectly, without any faltering whatsoever, as Paul says, when you fall short of the Glory of God, you have failed.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

How is that working out for you?

“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels (Rev.3:5).â€Â

Those who overcome are these:
Romans 3

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.â€Â

Romans 4

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Those who overcome are those who are regenerated from spiritual death to spiritual life by the Holy Spirit who then believe, trust, love and obey God through the gift of faith in Christ, Who Is the Overcomer in the place of the believer.

The Reconciliation that was Promised by God was received, and God does not go back on His Promise.

Maybe your god does but not the God of the Bible and the Christian Church.

Sin negates the righteousness received from God. The possibility of not overcoming is inevitable, if you don’t walk in the Spirit (Gal.5:16-26).

I see, so you have to be born again, then die and be forn again, then die, then be born again, then die, then be born again, then die, ad nauseum.

No, the Righteousness of God apart from the law comes from God to men, without fail.

Romans 3

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

Again, if you want to live under the Old Covenant that is your option.

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

The Holy Spirit can be taken away (Judg.16:20; 1 Sam.16:14; Ps.51:11).

I'm afraid you are confusing the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, which God, in His Providence empowers many to accomplish a specific purpose, even a snake or a donkey, with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit as promised in Ezekiel 36:

[quote:unbuhl2i]24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Notice exactly Who is doing all the work of Redemption.

As Jesus told NIc at night, "with man this is impossible".

Therefore, those who are depending on their own deeds, works, paticipation to be the ultimate reason for their salvation rather than trusting God exclusively, are building their house on shifting sand.

[quote:unbuhl2i]Jonah 2:9
"Salvation is of the LORD.â€Â

[/quote:unbuhl2i]
No confusion at all. The Holy Spirit has been recorded as being taken away and I'm sure has happened many other times.[/quote:unbuhl2i]

Sure you are confusing the difference between empowerment and Indwelling.

You already have my writings as evidence that Eph.1:4-5, 11-14, 2 Cor.5:5, and more.

I have your misconceptions, that only prove you have misconceptions.

The Holy Spirit guarantees no one of eternal life, whether the infilling, indwelling, baptism of, or any such thing.

Of course He does. But if you want to be justified on Judgment Day by your works, have at it.

You may want to have a really good lawyer to make your case for you though.

Eze.36 passage is about the gathering of Israel in the last times...partly fulfilled and a being fulfilled prophecy. We are actually weeks away from Eze.38-39.

Wrong! That passage is about the Church, which is expanded Israel, and of the Regenerative Work of God in the Elect who believe in Christ.

Salvation is of the Lord...AGREED.

ALONE!

Your works add not one thing to the Finished Work of Christ who Redeemed His people on the Cross.

As I said, if you want to make a case that your works in keeping the old covenant have to finish the Work of Christ, then have at it.

I do not recommend it however.

Trust Christ and Christ Alone, for your works are nothing.

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

I also agree w/ francisdesales , except one thing that will help clear up a misunderstanding between you two. Rom.5:12-21 does teach us that all are born in sin, in a fallen state, condemned, b/c of the one sin of one man. That passage of verses also proves why John 3 says we must be spiritually born "again." To do something again means it's been done at least once before. While Adam was righteous, all were righteous while in his loins. When Adam sinned, all became unrighteous when he sinned. So that passage doesn't only prove that Adam's salvation was lost for a time, but that all have already lost their salvation once before and are only regaining it when they come to Christ the first time.

So, what exactly can cause the Elect to "lose" salvation?

AN EXCELLENT QUESTION!
What is the only thing God has ever condemned? What is the only reason that condemns any being, whether angelic or human? What is the only thing that God judges? What are we to fear God...because He must judge what? Why are we told repeatedly to sin no more?

DO YOU SIN?

YES OR NO?

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

So the position that all who dismiss a believer's eternal security in Christ Jesus is boiled down to the following question and answer?

So, what exactly can cause the Elect to "lose" salvation?

The answer is SIN.

If so, then that position requires that a born again believer loses his/her salvation after each and every sin; which concludes that the Holy Spirit leaves the born again believer every time the born again believer sins. And the Holy Spirit re-enters the born again believer when he/she is born again.

That means that the born again process which was developed by an all knowing God is not sufficient to overcome the world, sin, mankind, satan, and the rest of the wickedness in His creation.

What that also means is that being in Christ is dependent upon sinful man to remain in Christ, and that Christ Jesus cannot do anything to overcome this action.

What this also means is that everyone that believes that one can lose their salvation because of sin, is a liar; because their is not one single, solitary person on this planet that has confessed each and every sin that they have committed, even with a general prayer such as, "forgive me my sins"!

My Salvation rests in what Jesus Christ has done to save me, and what the Holy Spirit does to sanctify me, and what God the Father has and is doing and will do to redeem me.

The contruct being proposed here that the Atonement of Christ is not sufficient to have Redeemed the people of God, without fail, is an afront to the Cross, and is no different than the additions to faith made by the Judaizers, of whom Paul said were under anthema for their false gospel.

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

This is how its written we don't come to Jesus, God the Father brings us to his Son.
Once in the masters hand he carries out his fathers wishes. Unless I missed something
We believers are the elect and who can stand in the way of Gods elect, it is the will
of God.

John 6: 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.

Great chapter and this passage has been used over and over. Let's look at the entire chapter. How about verse 27 where we are told to labor for eternal life? How about verses 60-69 where we see that many disciples were offend by the Word of God and walked w/ Christ no more, even though Jesus called them His disciples? Does Jesus call those that are not saved/born again His disciples. We can see what Jesus' definition of a disciple is a couple chapters later in John 8:31. Until Jn. 6:60, they were His disciples.

John 6:27
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
We are to labor for eternal life. The word ‘labor’ is translated from the Greek word ‘ergazomai,’ meaning to toil (as a task, occupation, etc.), (by implication) effect, be engaged in or with, etc.: commit, do, labor for, minister about, trade (by), word. Yes, that is correct; another way to summarize this verse is by saying we must work for eternal life.

And in this one comment to follow is encapsuled the Pelagian position, showing how Pelagianism has been resurrected in these last days.

Yes, that is correct; another way to summarize this verse is by saying we must work for eternal life.

That comment makes Jesus out to be a liar:
John 5

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Yep, Jesus was confused or worse, was being deceptive for teaching false doctrine.

So, to the Pelagian, it is not good enough for God to regenerate the dead to life, give the gift of faith by which those who are made alive, believe, which is not a mere intellectual assent, but to believe in Christ is to trust in His Atonement completely and exclusively to have paid the entire, full debt owed to God for their sin, thereby the Work of Christ brought Reconciliation between those once unregenerate enemies of God, into a right standing with God on account of Christ's Work on the Cross.

No, the Pelagian has to work for eternal life by keeping the old covenant.

The following is what Paul says to that false gospel:

Romans 3

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 4

Romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.â€Â

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

When you stand before Christ on Judgment Day, explain to Him that He owes you eternal life based on your work, and see how far that gets you.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.â€Â

But we already have a glimpse of Christ's answer to those who think they are owed eternal life for their works:
Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Notice on whom is the attention given for work.

They will say, "Didn't I...Didn't I....Didn't I.....Didn't I", instead of saying:

"Thank YOU Christ for what YOU DID"

Paul condemns the false gospel that adds human works to the Work of Christ.

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be eternally damned. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be eternally damned.

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

I'm not sure how you believe what you write about James 2

Because a plain reading of James in context is what I write.

You keep neglecting the context James lays down from the beginning in describing a man who "says" he has faith.

Now, anyone who understands literature and words at all, understands that when someone "says" something, it is a proclamation, a declaration, a profession of something.

Then James juxtaposes that profession which lacks evidence of it's validity against genuine faith that does have evidence, ie-works.

The former is dead, worthless, and is giving lip service, just like a political who says he/she is going to do something, but does not back it up.

The "saying" is a lie, and that is what James is saying. Their profession is not true.

 

[Saint_Iguanas]

James is not speaking of justification in the eyes of God, but is speaking of a profession of faith that is proven to men through their deeds.

Your post was correct. The term δικαιοÅÄαι (justified) in James 2:24 has a semantic range. The term does not always speak of justification in the sense of salvation. (If needed I can easily defend that statement scripturally). The think being justified in James 2 is not the person, but the persons claim to have faith. A person can claim to have faith when he can demonstrate that faith by his works.

It is often easy to see this when looking at verse 18. Verse 18 is a key verse in understanding the context.

18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
The context can be called the "show me" context. Verse 18 hypothetically has two different people. Both of them say they have faith. One person has no works, one person has works.
Which person can justify his claim to have faith? Of course the person with works.

In verse 18 the last part of the sentence has not be noted. The person who has works, what does he do with his works? He shows his faith! How else can the phrase "I by my works will show thee my faith" be read? So then the person in verse 19 who has faith like a demon is the same as the person who claims to have faith, but cannot show his faith.
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,

The person who turns away the brother might "say he has faith," but he cannot justify that claim by showing his faith by works.
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,

Verse 14 begins the hint at the contrast of the saved person who can demonstrate his faith, and the unsaved who cannot prove his has an actual faith.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
Is "saying" we have faith enough to save? No! The text ends "can that faith save him?" Never!

CONCLUSIONS
This is the whole point of the discussion. The person who does not believe in the security of the believer usually will accept any easy believism claim of faith. All you have to do is pray the sinners prayer. Just say the right words. Are you then saved? Not really. But the person who claims faith can and absolutely fall from his so called easy believism salvation.

Your reading of James 2 is absolutely right. I also notice you understand that the passage is not teaching faith and works, but a faith that results in works. The distinctions are necessary.

Eggackly, the kind of faith James is speaking of is one that is alive, and one that is followed by the works that God has established in believers to do, just as Promised in Ezekiel 36:

24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

It is God doing the Work, in and through those who are regenerated to life, and that is where the security lies, in God, not in ourselves, just as the Psalmist said;

Psalm 127:1
Unless the LORD builds the house,They labor in vain who build it

Those who are depending on their own works to complete what Christ began are building in vain.

 

[Joe67]

The examples of "works", in James, are not works of obeying the ten commandments.

Rahab betrayed her native people.

Abraham moved toward putting his own son to death.

Neither of these examples of obedient work fits into obeying the ten commandments.

In regard to a prayer of faith, Elijah's prayer led to a drought with all its calamity.

Works of faith and the works of the law are not one and the same. Faith moves against the desires of the flesh and the mind. Law gratifies the natural man.

Faith works by love and purifying the soul from the lust of the flesh and eyes.

Joe

 

[shad]

The examples of "works", in James, are not works of obeying the ten commandments.

Rahab betrayed her native people.

Abraham moved toward putting his own son to death.

Neither of these examples of obedient work fits into obeying the ten commandments.

In regard to a prayer of faith, Elijah's prayer led to a drought with all its calamity.

Works of faith and the works of the law are not one and the same. Faith moves against the desires of the flesh and the mind. Law gratifies the natural man.

Faith works by love and purifying the soul from the lust of the flesh and eyes.

Joe

Hi Joe, nice to meet you.

Obeying God is work, friend. The Bible says to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind". Loving God is utmost important work as His people.

Just my two cents.

 

[Anna1334]

Saint Iguanas wrote.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

ONLY THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIM ARE IN THAT CATEGORY NOT BACKSLIDERS.

Only if you stay in the faith; if you remove yourself from Him, He will let you go. Yahweh's Son has no prisoners only all those who are willing and obedient to follow and obey Him.
So you can't use these verses as a guaranty to your salvation.
SALVATION WILL BE YOURS WHEN YOU FINISH THE RACE.

WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE YES, BUT NOW YOU MUST BE HIS CHILD AND CONTINUE WITH HIM. Not of works; but faith without works of obedience is dead. Once saved you must trust in Him to take you to heaven, but He holds no rope around your neck; you are free to stay or free to leave. The prodigal son return and Yahweh gave him back his position.

KJV. Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to All the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Do not say but this is the Old Testament here is the New Testament. Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Same thing Yahweh is the same yesterday today and forever. How He has dealt with the Jews, the same goes for us.

 

[XTruth]

Hello Saint_Iguanas,

For the record, I do admire your passion about what you believe. But one thing must be cleared up, as you believe something about me I've never claimed or said. In fact, it is just all out untrue. I won't go into the detail and Scripture references about what I believe about the Mosaic Law that was abolished at the cross; this isn't the thread for that. I will directly say that I don't try to keep the Law of Moses, but 9 out of the 10 commandments were re-established in the New Covenant. They are moral laws that are sin if not obeyed. I do keep those...laws and commandments given by Christ for the new covenant. If you don't keep them, then you don't love (Jn.14:15-23) or know (1 Jn.2:3-6; Mat.7:21-23) Him. This is what our covenant claims, this is what I believe.

On the issue at hand, being this thread, you happened to have all of Romans 3:25 written out. In the version you printed, it said Jesus cleansed us from all our previous sins. My Bible says "past sins." This is the same thing. Can we narrow this debate down a bit and look at this verse we have both referenced for our position in previous posts? This verse (Rom.3:25) seems to say nothing about future sins being forgiven, only mentioning past sins. What are your thoughts on future sins since our covenant with Christ also tells us that sin condemns us also? If only past sins are forgiven, then the implications are undeniable. Please talk with me about this, and I'll address any of your statements if you'll narrow them down a bit.

Thanks

 

[MarkT]

In my Bible, it does...

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13 KJV

NKJV, NIV, ESV, NASB, RSV, ASV, Young, NAB, DBY, WEB, and HNV end verse 13 the same way. They fall away. I haven't checked others, maybe your version has something else...

Verse 13 says it all.

They hear the word with joy. They believe for awhile. They fall away.

What more needs to be said? We can end this thread with that simple little verse...

Sure they believe. But what do they believe? Many people believe Jesus is the Son of God, but they don't believe in eternal security which is what he taught. If you don't believe his teachings, then it's easy to fall away. If you don't receive the promise, then you can't lose it, and you won't even notice that you don't have it. Some only hear the word of the kingdom. The word falls on poor soil without any depth or among thorns and false teachers. Then because they fear persecution or they desire riches, they fall away. But some seek the kingdom of God, and finding it, they give away all that they have to possess it.

Would you agree that if a man abides in Christ, he has eternal security? And if he believes he has eternal security then Christ's word abides in him and he abides in Christ? And unless he continues to abide in Christ, which means unless he continues to believe he has eternal security, then he has no security? Jesus said, 'You are already made clean by the word I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you.' John 15:3,4

'If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers.' John 15:6

 

[MarkT]

Technically speaking, if the question is - do people fall away? - the answer is yes. But does that mean there is no such thing as eternal security? No. Just because most don't find it doesn't mean it's not there. You can find it.

 

[francisdesales]

Sure they believe. But what do they believe? Many people believe Jesus is the Son of God, but they don't believe in eternal security which is what he taught.

The parable calls the seed the "Word", presumably, the entire Gospel taught by Christ. You are really reaching to resort to "well, they didn't believe 'x', only 'y'" What evidence do you find that they didn't believe "enough" of the Gospel? Jesus says "they believed". We can surmise they believed ENOUGH, as there is absolutely no distinction made between the "amount of belief" of the last group, the fruitful ones, and the group that fell away. The distinction is their perseverance or lack thereof due to unsuccessfully fighting temptation.

THUS, it is NOT the faith, one time given, that provides the fruit, but the perseverance in faith...

Simply put, these people had joy and followed Christ and must have been filled with the Spirit - but fell away. It is difficult to avoid those implications.

If you don't receive the promise, then you can't lose it, and you won't even notice that you don't have it. Some only hear the word of the kingdom. The word falls on poor soil without any depth or among thorns and false teachers. Then because they fear persecution or they desire riches, they fall away. But some seek the kingdom of God, and finding it, they give away all that they have to possess it.

Yes. But they had faith and this faith fell. It is simple, Mark. Faith is a variable attribute within us. Don't you recognize that in yourself? Do you have the same amout of faith everyday? Don't you go through moments of doubt or moments of pure joy? Temptations and the lack of apparent action of God in our lives can diminish our faith in God. Thus, the faith fails and people fall away. The faith they once had is gone. It is not a matter of "how much you believe" on day 1. It is on PERSEVERANCE in a very basic thing - that God can be trusted.

Would you agree that if a man abides in Christ, he has eternal security?

As long as a man abides in Christ, he cannot lose his inheritance - that is the guarantee that is conditionally given - and we believe God will fulfill that promise.

And if he believes he has eternal security then Christ's word abides in him and he abides in Christ?

NO!!! Not at all. What is the conditions for recognizing whether God abides in us? Is it our stubborn belief that we are eternally secure that saves us? Heck no. I have already given you the verses. It is reliant upon our obedience in the commandments of God. As long as we obey God, we abide in Christ. THAT is our indication, not some obstinate idea in our heads while we continue sinning...

Regards

 

[MarkT]

'You are already made clean by the word I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you.' John 15:3,4

How are you made clean francis? By the word he has spoken.

The church is cleansed by the washing of water with the word. Titus 3:5 See also 'the washing of regeneration' Ephesians 5:26

The parable calls the seed the "Word", presumably, the entire Gospel taught by Christ.

No it doesn't refer to the entire gospel taught by Christ. The word of the kingdom is what the people heard - the good news; that the kingdom of God had come upon them - the Christ had come. Then they began to fall away because they couldn't understand our Master's teachings. This is why he taught them in parables, because seeing they could not see, and hearing they could not hear. This was to fulfill the prophecy, 'you shall indeed hear but never understand' Did they understand? No. They fell away. In this case they stopped following him.

You are really reaching to resort to "well, they didn't believe 'x', only 'y'" What evidence do you find that they didn't believe "enough" of the Gospel? Jesus says "they believed".

When you say the gospels what do you mean? The gospels were written by the disciples. The people believed Jesus was the Son of God because of the miracles he did. Then, of course, they turned on him. Again, I'm saying, they did not understand. Jesus said 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' when they crucified him.

We can surmise they believed ENOUGH, as there is absolutely no distinction made between the "amount of belief" of the last group, the fruitful ones, and the group that fell away. The distinction is their perseverance or lack thereof due to unsuccessfully fighting temptation.

The distinction is the depth of understanding. 'Lest they understand with their heart' Mt. 13:15 The soil is the heart, and the depth of understanding is the depth of the soil. The first man doesn't understand the word of the kingdom - that the kingdom is inside, that it is like a grain of mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree Mt. 13:31,32 - because of his hard heart. The second man hears the word of the kingdom, but then he falls away because of the fear of persecution. In this case the soil isn't deep enough. The next man hears that the kingdom is inside, but the desire for riches chokes the word. The last man hears and understands. He bears much fruit.

 

[MarkT]

Yes. But they had faith and this faith fell. It is simple, Mark. Faith is a variable attribute within us. Don't you recognize that in yourself? Do you have the same amout of faith everyday? Don't you go through moments of doubt or moments of pure joy? Temptations and the lack of apparent action of God in our lives can diminish our faith in God. Thus, the faith fails and people fall away. The faith they once had is gone. It is not a matter of "how much you believe" on day 1. It is on PERSEVERANCE in a very basic thing - that God can be trusted.

No. They didn't have any faith because they didn't understand. What did I say about the condition of the heart and soul and mind? Indeed, who established our depth? Who gave us our understanding? Where did it come from? From above! Who gave us the willing spirit? Was it not God who circumsized our heart?

My faith increases as I grow in the knowledge of God. I'm gladdened to hear you say God can be trusted, and I agree we must persevere. All I'm saying is don't say the ones who have found eternal security have a demon. They said the same thing about Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

You are already made clean by the word I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you.' John 15:3,4

How are you made clean francis? By the word he has spoken.

I get the feeling we are going round and round, and your offerings really is a denial of what has been expressed in Scriptures over and over again. We already agree that people become saved by Christ.

The subject is that men can fall away from God, even after having received the illumination from above of the potential of going to heaven.

A boat load of Scriptures can be presented to back up this point.

No it doesn't refer to the entire gospel taught by Christ.

Based on what evidence do you say that? And why the JOY? Sorry, this is just refusing to see the obvious. Faith is had by the group that fell away and the group that remain. The difference is NOT the "level of understanding" - nowhere do we see that - but that the later group persevered in spite of tempation, while the former group did not.

Whether one falls or not depends NOT on "level of understanding" but on ADHERING to it!

The word of the kingdom is what the people heard - the good news; that the kingdom of God had come upon them - the Christ had come. Then they began to fall away because they couldn't understand our Master's teachings.

:biglol

Pure invention.

What will be your next trick? A rabbit out of the hat?

Nothing is mentioned at all about understanding the gospel. Can you find that in Scriptures, rather than your denominational interpretation?

This is why he taught them in parables, because seeing they could not see, and hearing they could not hear. This was to fulfill the prophecy, 'you shall indeed hear but never understand' Did they understand? No. They fell away. In this case they stopped following him.

There is no indication that the reason they fell away is lack of understanding. The ENTIRE PARABLE is given to test people and their openness, their "soil", to the Word of God and its message. One doesn't have to be a brain surgeon or a theologian to "understand" the Gospel. It is quite simple. Jesus came to save mankind. Believe in God, repent and you'll be freed from sin.

It is not a matter of "understanding", but a matter of persevering in that belief.

Note, the group that fell away began in joy. They believed. Believed what? Believed in the Word. What was the Word? The Gospel message that Jesus came to save mankind from sin. They believed it and were joyous. For awhile. However, the temptations of the world set in, NOT the "lack of understanding".

When you say the gospels what do you mean? The gospels were written by the disciples. The people believed Jesus was the Son of God because of the miracles he did. Then, of course, they turned on him. Again, I'm saying, they did not understand. Jesus said 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' when they crucified him.

Which of the Romans nailing Christ to the Cross "knew" the Gospel message???

We already know that the Jews guilty of handing Him over REFUSED to believe. It was not a matter of "understanding" but a matter of not believing the CLEAR words that Christ was the Messiah.

The distinction is the depth of understanding. 'Lest they understand with their heart' Mt. 13:15

"understand with the heart" has very little to do with what you and I would consider "understanding" something with the intellect. "Understanding with the heart" is to believe in something AND to walk in the ways of that belief. This is not just a matter of intellectual understanding, but something meant to be morally life-changing.

There is no indication that the group that fell away ALSO did not have an "understanding with the heart".

FOR AWHILE.

That is key. They believed for awhile. It is not that they "didn't understand with the heart" but that the TIMING was inadequate. There was no perseverance. Jesus said only those who persevere UNTIL THE END will be saved (for heaven). Not those who understand my gospel. It is a desperate and contrived interpretation of what is plainly in Scriptures.

They had faith for awhile and they fell away. Absolutely no commentary on different levels of faith or understanding. Christ places the difference upon those who persevered and resisted temptation. It was THEY who were fruitful.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

No. They didn't have any faith because they didn't understand. What did I say about the condition of the heart and soul and mind? Indeed, who established our depth? Who gave us our understanding? Where did it come from? From above! Who gave us the willing spirit? Was it not God who circumsized our heart?

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

FOR A WHILE BELIEVE...

Repeat and believe. Mark, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you are wrong. Accept the Word of Christ, not your word. Open your heart and mind to what the Bible says, not to what you say.

FOR A WHILE BELIEVE...

This one verse (among numerous others by themselves) destroys the entire rotten false teaching of "once saved always saved". Man can believe in the Word and fall away. There is no "magic point of understanding" that MAN must achieve before he is "officially" saved. The bible says repent and believe - desire to be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit, and you will be saved - past sins are washed away.

Nowhere does the Bible suggest that a person had to FIRST have full understanding of the Gospel, to include all of the mysteries of faith given to the Apostles, before they could receive the Spirit.
Consider the Eunech in Acts. He merely desired to be baptized, and so he was. No "test", no "trial period", nothing about "depth of understanding". He realized and came to believe that the Christ was offering salvation from sin.

Whether you REMAIN saved (free from sin) will depend upon the "depth of your roots..." How strong is the saved person's faith, that, in the time of temptation, they can turn away from the world. Such people will persevere. This perseverance is based upon the depth of one's faith and love in God, not in one's "understanding" of intellectual concepts...

Regards