Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[destiny]

I didn't read every post here so I'm not sure if this verse has been used or not..

Hebrews 3:14- For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end...

 

[Good News Brown]

Good News Brown, I overlapped some of what you were saying, but I was reading this chapter this morning and wanted to share it here even though I saw you already posted.

Hi lovely!

No problem. I appreciate your entire post, and I don't think you overlapped my post at all. And even if you do at any time, I'll take it as a compliment.

 

[Solo]

I didn't read every post here so I'm not sure if this verse has been used or not..

Hebrews 3:14- For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end...

Destiny,

Hebrews 3:14 is a good verse to discuss, as it can be used to understand other conditional sentences in the Scriptures.

• 4 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

The context of this Scripture is that the letter is written to Jewish persons who know the Mosaic law, and the provocation during the 40 years in the wilderness where some Israelites hardened their heart.

Verse 4 can be taken two ways, therefore, we must rightly divide the word of truth and use the whole counsel of God's Word to determine the meaning.

Verse 4 can be taken as a conditional salvation statement that IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end, we are made partakers of Christ. This rendition would mean that we are not partakers of Christ until the end, at which time we will then be judged to have held the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.

A better interpretation which is confirmed by other portions of God's Word would be that one's salvation is revealed by the faith of an enduring confidence that one's hope is secure and inevitable for the born again, born from above believer. A verse of Scripture that depicts this is 1 John 2:19.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Therefore, Hebrews 3:14 should be interpreted as revealing one's salvation status, rather than proposing or maintaining one's salvation upon one's performance. The Scriptures are clear that the salvation that we enjoy is not based on our works, but on the works of Jesus Christ.

God bless,

Solo

 

[destiny]

Colossians 1:21-25

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister..


It's conditional, and it ain't rocket science.

 

[Solo]

Colossians 1:21-25

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister..


It's conditional, and it ain't rocket science.

Destiny,

Verses 21 through 23 are preceded by Paul addressing "the saints in Colossae" who he calls "faithful brethren in Christ".

He greets them as brothers and sisters in Christ saying, "Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!"

Paul tells the saints at Colossae that Timothy and he pray for them, and that they have heard of their "faith in Christ Jesus," and "the love that is to all the saints, because of the hope that is laid up" for them "in the heavens" which they "heard of before in the word of truth of the good news which is present" to them "and is bearing fruit."

Paul writes that the saints at Colossae "knew the grace of God in truth," and that their faithful ministrant in Christ, Epaphras, declared to Paul of their love in the Spirit.

Paul states that Timothy and he do not cease from praying for them, and asking that they "may be filled with the full knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding" so that they would walk "worthily of the Lord to all pleasing, in every good work being fruitful, and increasing to the knowledge of God," to "all endurance and long-suffering with joy."

According to Paul, the saints at Colossae were "once being alienated, and enemies in the mind," and "in the evil works," but that God did reconcile them through "the body of his flesh through his death to present them "holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself, IF they also remain in the faith, being founded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the good news, which they heard, and was preached in all the creation that is under the heaven.

What does the conditional sentence say with the "IF" and "THEN" cause and effect point.

The saints of Colossae are no doubt born again with the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in their lives, and the affirmation of Paul's statements in his letter to them. Paul praises the saints at Colossae for 22 verses, and then tells them that if they remain in the faith (which they will because they were born again and their faith is in Christ Jesus), being founded and settled (which is what occurs as they mature in the walk with the Holy Spirit teaching them all things), and not moved away from the hope of the good news (being led astray by false teachings that take their eyes off of their hope of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they will be presented holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself. These verses of Scripture strengthen the security and assurance of those who are born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day that they are presented to Jesus Christ at His coming.

• 
  21 And you -- once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile, 22 in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself, 23 if also ye remain in the faith, being founded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the good news, which ye heard, which was preached in all the creation that [is] under the heaven, of which I became -- I Paul -- a ministrant. Colossians 1:21-23

Again, John tells us that those who are born again will continue in the faith; but those who were not born again will leave.

• 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:19

The only condition of Salvation is whether one believes and is born again or not. You are right; it is not rocket science.

 

[MarkT]

Colossians 1:21-25

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister..


It's conditional, and it ain't rocket science.

Right. If you continue to believe - 'shall never thirst' Joh. 6:35, 'shall never die' Joh. 11:26. The OSAS person could argue that Paul is saying don't be moved from OSAS.

 

[destiny]

...but he who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

 

[MarkT]

...but he who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Endures hardship, suffering, temptation, trial, persecution, hatred. The OSAS people could argue they do, even enduring the condemnation coming from their own brethren.

 

[Rick W]

If the seed is in fertile ground it will grow. If in stony or thorny ground it will not endure.
What's being said in many posts is that even if in good ground it may not grow anyway making Christ's parable quite untrustworthy or worthless in any case.

To endure is confirmation not a rule, ordinance or law. Endurance is a testimony of the ground in which the seed is sown. For how can seed in stony ground grow?

Is Christ's parable true or not?

 

[MarkT]

If the seed is in fertile ground it will grow. If in stony or thorny ground it will not endure.
What's being said in many posts is that even if in good ground it may not grow anyway making Christ's parable quite untrustworthy or worthless in any case.

To endure is confirmation not a rule, ordinance or law. Endurance is a testimony of the ground in which the seed is sown. For how can seed in stony ground grow?

Is Christ's parable true or not?

That's right. It's not a question of 'if' that these things happen. The parable says, he bears much fruit. This is what happens! Likewise, when the seed falls on thorns, it's not a question of if it is choked. It is choked! So what happens does not depend on our will or exertion. It depends on the soil. For example, Judas was a devil. He wasn't born by chance to betray Jesus. He was born to betray Jesus.

 

[Solo]

...but he who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Only those who endure to the end will be saved. And those who endure to the end will only be those who have been born again, born from above, born of God, sealed by God until the day of redemption.

... but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:13

... there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

• 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:13-24

 

[XTruth]

...but he who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Only those who endure to the end will be saved. And those who endure to the end will only be those who have been born again, born from above, born of God, sealed by God until the day of redemption.

... but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:13

... there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

• 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give *bleep* in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:13-24

So I guess the context was taken out of place. Except one thing; it appears in chapter 10 as well.

Mat 10:22
“22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.â€Â
This means to endure till the end of life here and the end of this age as in Matthew 24:13 and Mark 13:13.

Mat.24:13
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.â€Â
The word ‘end’ in this verse comes from the Greek word “telos,†which means the actual end of anything (also in vs.6 and 14), does not mean the joining of two ages, as has been said. The word for ‘end’ would then be from the Greek word “sunteleia†(Mat.13:39, 40, 49; 24:3; 28:20; Heb.9:26). Here, ‘telos’ means the end of life or the age as it may be.

Mark 4:17
“And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.â€Â
Some on this board continually come at this verse like we are all predestined to only be good soil, or thorny or stony ground. So if someone has been given the Word of God before and it either wasn’t accepted or was accepted for a while (most even still profess Christ), yet are obviously not in Christ, but in sin, then should we even waste our time giving them the Word again? By many’s view here, it would be a waste, b/c they act like we are forever what we are. But we all know people can change and the gospel can be accepted. Likewise, the fertile ground can spring up thorns and be unfit for the work of the kingdom any longer (Eze.3:18-21; 18:20-32; 33:8-20).

John 6:27
“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.â€Â
ENDURETH UNTO EVERLASTING LIFE

Heb.12:7
“If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?â€Â
On the flip side of chastening and always enduring, b/c we are predestined to automatically repent and do what’s righteous in the end, as some say; we may not do that, or Scripture would say, “When ye endure chastening.†And some say that the Greek language has no place for conditions, what about the biggest part of the Word of God that was written in Hebrew? The Hebrew “if’s†are 8 out of 13 of the entire “if’s in the Bible….that’s more than half.

2 Tim.4:3
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.â€Â
I won’t use this verse to say it is about the OSAS doctrine; it goes w/o saying that we both believe this about each other. I will use it to prove that endurance is real and something we have to do until the end. There is obviously more than the “commandment to believe,†for it is written in our holy book, that even the devils believe and shudder.

I know there are a few places in the Bible that are obviously symbolisms, and figurative, but most is very literal. Even the literal meaning should always be found when reading the symbolic and figurative. If the Bible would be read as any other book (by use of language), then the clear meaning would be clear to all. But that is not the case for most.

 

[francisdesales]

Only those who endure to the end will be saved. And those who endure to the end will only be those who have been born again, born from above, born of God, sealed by God until the day of redemption.

True, but not the other way around. Some of those saved, born from above, born of God, sealed by God, will fall away - and it would have been better off if they had NEVER been saved in the first place, which undercuts completely the idea of not being able to lose one's justification in the Eyes of God.

This concept of 2 Peter is not new. Christ teaches the same theological principles...

Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?" The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me." Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath. 0 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, "It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed." He answered them, "He who made me well said to me, 'Take up your bed and walk.' " Then they asked him, "Who is the Man who said to you, 'Take up your bed and walk'?" But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in [that] place. Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." John 5:5-14.

No doubt, John includes this in his theological work to teach Christians that being healed, saved, redeemed in the past does not imply one cannot become sick, unsaved, and fall into sin again...

"When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds [it] swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with [him] seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first." Luke 11:24-26.

Being cured, saved from sin, once does not mean a person is ETERNALLY SECURE. Returning to his former life can make his current state WORSE than his past.

Sounds a lot like Peter was paying attention to the Christ and His teachings...

Regards

 

[Solo]

It amazes me that folks can ignore the almighty power of God, ignore the Scriptures that speak of being sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, and still believe the lie that one can lose their salvation.

Now satan is saying, "Did God really say that you have eternal life if you believe in Jesus Christ, and that you are sealed until the day of redemption? He really did not mean that, he wants you to continue to build the tower of babal yourself to climb into heaven by your own strength. He doesn't want any weaklings or sinners in heaven, so get to it!"

What a terrible sad state of affairs that other spirits than the Holy Spirit hold sway on so many who are, and who claim to be Christians.

BTW I have already given Scriptures and proofs to show all conditional salvation claims to contradict the Word of God just as satan did when tempting Jesus in the wilderness by taking Scripture out of context to fit one's personal interpretation and deception.

 

[francisdesales]

It amazes me that folks can ignore the almighty power of God, ignore the Scriptures that speak of being sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, and still believe the lie that one can lose their salvation.

Scripture defines "salvation" above as that moment when we are forgiven of past sins. Not future sins. Scriptures NEVER speaks of future sins being forgiven today or in the past. How can they? God expects us to repent of future sins. We SHOULD, considering we have been illuminated. You are placing redemption and eternal salvation into the same category.

Sure, we are sealed, we are property of God. And so were the Jews... Paul speaks of THEIR fate in 1 Cor 10, if you think YOU cannot fall...

Now satan is saying, "Did God really say that you have eternal life if you believe in Jesus Christ, and that you are sealed until the day of redemption? He really did not mean that, he wants you to continue to build the tower of babal yourself to climb into heaven by your own strength. He doesn't want any weaklings or sinners in heaven, so get to it!"

Is this how you respond to 2 Peter? With red herrings?

The day of redemption is in the past. We have already been saved from the influence of sin - IF WE DESIRE TO CONTINUE IN CHRIST. We are redeemed, but we are no longer redeemed if we toss away our redemption, our inheritance. Eternal salvation is conditional - not redemption. Scriptures clearly speak about losing our inheritance IF we continue in sin. Must I continue in every post to repeat that?

What good is redemption as "eternal security" if we CAN be WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE??? HOW can redemption be something we can "never lose" if we are WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE??? Redemption means the effect of sin need no longer condemn us. Is one "redeemed" when they return to a life of sin? Please...

How much clearer can one make this? A person can throw away their justification, making them WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE...

What a terrible sad state of affairs that other spirits than the Holy Spirit hold sway on so many who are, and who claim to be Christians.

Yea, my thoughts exactly. How, after being fed over and over with the SAME Scriptures, you still refuse to answer to them?

BTW I have already given Scriptures and proofs to show all conditional salvation claims to contradict the Word of God just as satan did when tempting Jesus in the wilderness by taking Scripture out of context to fit one's personal interpretation and deception.

First, I disagree with your "proofs". Numerous Scriptures have been given to counter your "proofs". Secondly, how can you take 2 Peter any differently? The parable of the sower and the seed? The words of Christ that one must CONTINUE to believe? I have not seen you address 2 Peter yet other than some cryptic attempt to say they were fools and not believers, despite Peter saying they were believers...

Regards

 

[Good News Brown]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast.

The word boast in this text is the Greek word Kauchaomai which is synonymous with glory. This is more in line with the dictionary definition as a means to express pride in oneself or one's accomplishments that may imply a claiming with proper and justifiable pride, as opposed to ostentation and exaggeration.

2 Corinthians 11:16-18 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord, but as a fool. Since many are boasting in the way the world does I too will boast.

Obviously boasting in itself is okay in it's proper context, like boasting in the things of the Lord, or even mentioning personal attributes as long as God is given the glory. Boasting in the self-glorifying (bragging, crowing) sense would of course be the flip side to boasting. However, the latter doesn't seem to be the problem in Ephesians in that if one's personal contribution to their salvation were justifiable.

2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished my coarse, I have kept the faith, henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me on that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.

Paul certainly spoke in the positive concerning himself on a number of occasions (proper and justifiable). However, In light of Ephesians 2:8-9, how could Paul when referencing his crown of righteousness waiting for him have anything to do with glorying in his accomplishments contributing to his salvation? Even in his self-confident boasting, he clearly states in 2 Corinthians that he does not speak as the Lord would, but as a fool.

1 Corinthians 1:30 Therefore as it is written, "The person who boasts must boast in the Lord".

It would appear that Paul's statement in Ephesians 2:8-9 is refuting any reference to an individual having anything to do with their salvation. If one had anything to do with it (persevering, remaining faithful, doing good works), wouldn't those be a means to glory in on a personal level?

 

[francisdesales]

It would appear that Paul's statement in Ephesians 2:8-9 is refuting any reference to an individual having anything to do with their salvation. If one had anything to do with it (persevering, remaining faithful, doing good works), wouldn't those be a means to glory in on a personal level?

I think Paul means that we cannot glory on good works because we can do NOTHING without the Lord. Thus, we cannot glorify works as if they were OUR OWN. ANYTHING we do good is Christ and I doing it. Without Him, I cannot do anything good. Thus, I cannot glorify in works unaided because I can do not good unaided.

This does not mean that works are not necessary for eternal salvation. No one will reach heaven without love, even with all the faith to move mountains. (1 Cor 13:2).

Regards

 

[XTruth]

Eze.3:18-21
18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
(WHAT DOES THIS MEAN OTHER THAN WHAT IT SAYS?)(THE TRUE MEANING OF 1 JN.3:9 AND 5:18; the righteous don't in b/c there is no sin in righteousness (Jn.8:31-34; Gal.6:7-8; 1 Jn.1:5-6))

Rom.1:29-2:3
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
(DON’T YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE CHRISTIANS IN SIN THAT TELL OTHERS THAT THEY NEED TO BE SAVED B/C THEIR SINS CONDEMN THEM?)

Rom.6:16
“16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?â€Â
(WHY IS THIS WRITTEN TO BORN AGAIN PEOPLE IF THEIR SINS DON’T CONDEMN THEM?)

Rom.8:12-13
“12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.â€Â
(WHY DO BORN OF THE SPIRIT PEOPLE NEED TO BE WARNED TO MORTIFY DEEDS OF THE BODY IF THEIR SINS DON’T CONDEMN THEM?) Just 4 passages, can a mere 4 passages be answered by the OSAS?

 

[Solo]

What is interesting is that those who believe in a conditional salvation lump born again, born from above, born of God believers in with the unbelievers as if God has not done a work in their life. This is simple unbelief, and a dangerous place to be in. If God is not correcting this incorrect teaching in ones life, they better examine themselves fully to see that they are in the faith.

As I stated before, only three types of people would hold to this teaching: 1)those who are babes in Christ and are being molded into the image of Christ Jesus in the maturation process, 2)those who refuse to give up the traditions of men and accept the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, or 3)those who are not born again and have no idea about the spiritual things of God.

 

[francisdesales]

What is interesting is that those who believe in a conditional salvation lump born again, born from above, born of God believers in with the unbelievers as if God has not done a work in their life. This is simple unbelief, and a dangerous place to be in. If God is not correcting this incorrect teaching in ones life, they better examine themselves fully to see that they are in the faith.

An unbeliever is not lumped in with a born from above believer. Although a born again person CAN become an unbeliever, as the Scriptures very clearly and repeatedly note.

I think you are doing the "lumping" here by saying a person who is born from above has ALREADY won eternal salvation. What EVER happened to hope in THAT forumula? This thought process also eliminates the NEED for santification! This makes all of those exhortations and warnings to persevere POINTLESS. WHY NOT drink and be merry - since Christ "did it already"??? No, that is not Christianity. Christ opened the door to us, showed us the path. Now, the narrow path has opened before us, and in Christ, we WILL succeed. But only if we remain in Christ. We know we are in Christ when we are obeying the Commandments. That is our sign, not wishful thinking.

Is there a possibility that we are talking past each other on what a believer/unbeliever is??? I don't know, I just cannot believe that we are reading the SAME bible and coming up with opposite conclusions on such an issue...

As I stated before, only three types of people would hold to this teaching: 1)those who are babes in Christ and are being molded into the image of Christ Jesus in the maturation process, 2)those who refuse to give up the traditions of men and accept the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, or 3)those who are not born again and have no idea about the spiritual things of God.

When a person is "born from above", they do not automatically know all about the "spiritual things of God". This is clear in practically every letter written by the Apostles to their communities.

In addition, knowing does not necessarily lead to doing. Does "knowing" always lead to "doing" for James, for example? It is strong motivation, but in the end, we do have free will. We can be lazy or complacent or place other things in our lives first. We can doubt or distrust that God really will do those things in our lives. There are a number of things that can cause a believer to become a nonbeliever. The parable of the sower tells us this is indeed the case. The anxieties of the world and the seeming inactivity of God can cause believers to doubt God's Providence, despite being formerly illuminated.

Is not the Bible's stories of the Exodus clear enough? HOW MANY died in the desert, despite being FIRST saved from the slavery of Egypt? Paul uses this to good effect by saying that "once saved" doesn't mean we will be saved in the end. If the Jews died in the desert, their journey through life DESPITE receiving bread from heaven EVERYDAY, falling short of achieving the Promised Land, and YOU believe this has no utility for us today, WHY does PAUL use it in 1 Cor and Heb to express that this very same possibility awaits those who do not persevere? In the 1 Cor 10 case, we see that Paul considers the Jews had the "spiritual rock" to guide them - and they STILL FELL!

Does Paul say - "see, those unbelievers died in the desert, but that cannot happen to us. We are a better chosen people of God"? No... He says "beware this doesn't happen to you as well"...

I am not sure why you refuse to understand what the Spirit has taught the Church on this matter for so long...

Regards