Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[MarkT]

I have never questioned an individual's salvation or walk. I am addressing the teaching that "once saved always saved" twists the Bible's intent. To maintain it, one must completely avoid dozens of verses that tell us Christians can return to a life of sin, losing the whole effort of salvation in the first place ("better to have not been enlightened", Peter said).

Not true francis. Those things can be incorporated into our understanding. Let me get this straight. Are you saying OSAS is too generous; it lets anyone who ever believed into the kingdom, including unbelievers? I don't think that is true. I don't think OSAS by itself lets anyone into the kingdom. Only those who follow Jesus enter and find pasture.

However, if as a result of hearing the Shepherd's voice, the sheep are assured, then I am gladdened.

Or are you saying this teaching (or understanding) leads men to behave immorally. If so, do you have any evidence that supports your conclusion? Are the OSAS people behaving immorally?

We are both interpreting OSAS. Maybe it means something different to you than it does to me. We might both be wrong. The OSAS person could argue that he follows his master's voice, and that he doesn't follow anyone but him. But I suppose, being a Calvinist, you could say he is following Calvin just as you are following the Pope. If you wouldn't say that, then how is it different?

I am teaching what the Scriptures teach. One must persevere until the end, done ONLY through Jesus Christ. Is this such a difficult thing to understand??? One must die to self, dedicate themselves to God, love others. It is WORK, by God! (literally.)

No. 'Done' in Jesus Christ. There's a huge difference. Through Christ we have access to the Father, but we must abide in Christ to work and to receive; he is the true vine. Would you agree that we are made righteous by faith and by works of love?

I agree. Branches are cut off. Believers fall into unbelief. The rain falls on the good and the bad. The land that brings forth thorns and thistles is cursed. Many sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness.

There is only one way to enter the kingdom, and that is if you are spirit yourself. Do you think you are a spiritual man? No. Not yet. Take up the words of our Master. Then you will find security. Do not be anxious.

 

[francisdesales]

Not true francis. Those things can be incorporated into our understanding.

No they can't. That is why the OSAS group has totally ignored 2 Peter. It bursts their fuzzy fantasy bubble.

Let me get this straight. Are you saying OSAS is too generous; it lets anyone who ever believed into the kingdom, including unbelievers? I don't think that is true. I don't think OSAS by itself lets anyone into the kingdom. Only those who follow Jesus enter and find pasture.

OSAS is just false and misrepresents Scriptures so as to give a false sense of security. Nothing to do with "too generous".

Yes, only those who follow Jesus enter into the pasture. TODAY. Not 20 years ago but not anymore. Is this so difficult to comprehend?

However, if as a result of hearing the Shepherd's voice, the sheep are assured, then I am gladdened.

...And many will say "Lord, Lord", and Jesus will say "I never knew you..."

Salvation such as "I heard the Shepherd's voice" is purely wishful fanciful thinking. Only by our obedience to God do we KNOW Christ abides in us, not just SAYING He abides in us. Obedience is the SIGN of HIS ABIDING PRESENCE! When one examines their walk, they'll know whether they are in Christ or not, if they are completely honest and do not fool themselves. If they deem they are not walking in Christ, they can return to Him. If they fool themselves, they remain apart.

Or are you saying this teaching (or understanding) leads men to behave immorally. If so, do you have any evidence that supports your conclusion? Are the OSAS people behaving immorally?

It can, but not necessarily. It is common sense that if a person believes they already have a free bus ticket, they will not strive to obtain one... There is less likely the effort put forth to "persevere until the end" IF hope has already been supposedly fulfilled.

We are both interpreting OSAS. Maybe it means something different to you than it does to me. We might both be wrong. The OSAS person could argue that he follows his master's voice, and that he doesn't follow anyone but him. But I suppose, being a Calvinist, you could say he is following Calvin just as you are following the Pope. If you wouldn't say that, then how is it different?

Man is very easily deluded. People do not like to contemplate that they could be wrong. Thus, in religious matters, especially, it is difficult to convince people that they are wrong. Look at the Pharisees! The point is that using the "I am following the Master's voice" concept is purely subjective and betrays what Scriptures say about ONLY those who obey the Father's will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We have a sure-fire way of KNOWING we are of God - we are obeying His Will. When we are not obeying His Will, we are not in His abiding presence. While sinning and turning our back on God, we are not saved! This is why we are told to repent, even after we first receive the Spirit.

No. 'Done' in Jesus Christ. There's a huge difference. Through Christ we have access to the Father, but we must abide in Christ to work and to receive; he is the true vine. Would you agree that we are made righteous by faith and by works of love?

The only thing that is "done" is Christ's work while He walked in the flesh before ascending to heaven. Mankind has been granted access to redemption. But IF everything is "done" like you said, WHY does Scriptures tell us that Christ CONTINUES TO INTERCEDE FOR US???

Apparently, Christ is NOT done working. Nor is the Church, until all is in the Father.

I agree. Branches are cut off. Believers fall into unbelief. The rain falls on the good and the bad. The land that brings forth thorns and thistles is cursed. Many sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness.

You again got me confused on your stance... Can believers fall into belief and be cut off and remain so? Or not?

There is only one way to enter the kingdom, and that is if you are spirit yourself.

[/quote]

??? Verse, please.

Do you think you are a spiritual man? No. Not yet.

Funny, I have never discussed your walk, never said you were a man of the flesh, on your way to hell, anything like that...

...but because I disagree with your stance on OSAS, I am "not a spiritual man".

I see. Being a "spiritual man" enables you to judge other people so freely over miles and miles of fiber and copper cables. Good for you. God has been granting me MANY graces/crosses today (long story) and I guess one of them is to not lower myself to your level.

 

[Solo]

What is interesting is that those who believe in a conditional salvation lump born again, born from above, born of God believers in with the unbelievers as if God has not done a work in their life. This is simple unbelief, and a dangerous place to be in. If God is not correcting this incorrect teaching in ones life, they better examine themselves fully to see that they are in the faith.

An unbeliever is not lumped in with a born from above believer. Although a born again person CAN become an unbeliever, as the Scriptures very clearly and repeatedly note.

Not true. The Scriptures do not teach anywhere that a born again believer can lose one's salvation. Your misinterpretation of Scripture and tradition of men lead you to that interpretation.

I think you are doing the "lumping" here by saying a person who is born from above has ALREADY won eternal salvation.

A person who has been born again HAS won eternal salvation because he/she is now seated IN CHRIST JESUS, not his/her sinful self. A born again believer is a SINNER SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

What EVER happened to hope in THAT forumula? This thought process also eliminates the NEED for santification! This makes all of those exhortations and warnings to persevere POINTLESS. WHY NOT drink and be merry - since Christ "did it already"??? No, that is not Christianity. Christ opened the door to us, showed us the path. Now, the narrow path has opened before us, and in Christ, we WILL succeed. But only if we remain in Christ. We know we are in Christ when we are obeying the Commandments. That is our sign, not wishful thinking.

Conditional Salvation proponents obey Christ Jesus because they have to, in their mind; Born again believers obey Christ Jesus because they are His workmanship and ordained by God to walk in good works.

One can base their hope on faith or they can base their hope on their works. Those who have been born again have Faith, Hope, and Love because they have been born of God, and the OLD NASTY FLESH now has the HOLY SPIRIT dwelling within it. The Holy Spirit is driving the vehicle around until it is changed into a righteous, glorified, eternal body like the new creature that has been born from above.

• 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, F1 your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 1 Thessalonians 1:2-5
  
  6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1 Thessalonians 5:6-10

Is there a possibility that we are talking past each other on what a believer/unbeliever is??? I don't know, I just cannot believe that we are reading the SAME bible and coming up with opposite conclusions on such an issue...

How old were you when you were born again; where were you when you were born again, and what transpired to bring you to be born again?

As I stated before, only three types of people would hold to this teaching: 1)those who are babes in Christ and are being molded into the image of Christ Jesus in the maturation process, 2)those who refuse to give up the traditions of men and accept the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, or 3)those who are not born again and have no idea about the spiritual things of God.

When a person is "born from above", they do not automatically know all about the "spiritual things of God". This is clear in practically every letter written by the Apostles to their communities.

I never implied that.

The only time that a natural man of the flesh can understand spiritual things is when the Holy Spirit quickens one for understanding purposes, and then after one believes in Jesus Christ after hearing the Word of God and is born again, one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach all things.

In addition, knowing does not necessarily lead to doing. Does "knowing" always lead to "doing" for James, for example? It is strong motivation, but in the end, we do have free will. We can be lazy or complacent or place other things in our lives first. We can doubt or distrust that God really will do those things in our lives. There are a number of things that can cause a believer to become a nonbeliever. The parable of the sower tells us this is indeed the case. The anxieties of the world and the seeming inactivity of God can cause believers to doubt God's Providence, despite being formerly illuminated.

The Scriptures are clear that a born again believer must walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul speaks of the warring that goes on within a born again believer between the flesh and the spirit in Romans 7. Therefore, a born again believer is a brand new creature having never been created before. That is why Jesus teaches about one being born from above.

This new creature is not a new creature because of being a believer, never to be an unbeliever again. This new creature is born of God, never able to be unborn of God. If you can cease to having ever existed as a physical human being born on this earth, and unborn yourself physically from your fleshly parents; I will believe you when you tell me that you can unborn yourself from your Father, God Almighty.

Is not the Bible's stories of the Exodus clear enough? HOW MANY died in the desert, despite being FIRST saved from the slavery of Egypt? Paul uses this to good effect by saying that "once saved" doesn't mean we will be saved in the end. If the Jews died in the desert, their journey through life DESPITE receiving bread from heaven EVERYDAY, falling short of achieving the Promised Land, and YOU believe this has no utility for us today, WHY does PAUL use it in 1 Cor and Heb to express that this very same possibility awaits those who do not persevere? In the 1 Cor 10 case, we see that Paul considers the Jews had the "spiritual rock" to guide them - and they STILL FELL!

They died in the wilderness, and they did not enter into the promised land for the same reason that individuals will not enter into the Kingdom of God; because of UNBELIEF. Those who believe and are born again do not and will not depart from God, and the warning is not to born again believers concerning unbelief, but of those who have not believed.

• 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:7-19

• 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Hebrews 4:1-9

Does Paul say - "see, those unbelievers died in the desert, but that cannot happen to us. We are a better chosen people of God"? No... He says "beware this doesn't happen to you as well"...

I am not sure why you refuse to understand what the Spirit has taught the Church on this matter for so long...

Regards

Paul is warning those who have an evil heart of unbelief. Those who have been born again are now a new creature, and the inward man of that new creature delights in the law of God, but the sold under sin flesh in which dwells no good thing serves sin. O wretched man that I am; who is going to save me from this body of death?! Thank you Jesus for overcoming sin so that I can have eternal life through your work on the cross.

• 1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
  
  7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
  
  14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[XTruth]

bump...Solo, you seem to be the leading ambassador for the doctrine of eternal security. Will you answer??? To be completely fair, you can give me Scriptures you would like for me to respond to as well.

Eze.3:18-21
18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
(WHAT DOES THIS MEAN OTHER THAN WHAT IT SAYS?)(THE TRUE MEANING OF 1 JN.3:9 AND 5:18; the righteous don't in b/c there is no sin in righteousness (Jn.8:31-34; Gal.6:7-8; 1 Jn.1:5-6))

Rom.1:29-2:3
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
(DON’T YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE CHRISTIANS IN SIN THAT TELL OTHERS THAT THEY NEED TO BE SAVED B/C THEIR SINS CONDEMN THEM?)

Rom.6:16
“16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?â€Â
(WHY IS THIS WRITTEN TO BORN AGAIN PEOPLE IF THEIR SINS DON’T CONDEMN THEM?)

Rom.8:12-13
“12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.â€Â
(WHY DO BORN OF THE SPIRIT PEOPLE NEED TO BE WARNED TO MORTIFY DEEDS OF THE BODY IF THEIR SINS DON’T CONDEMN THEM?) Just 4 passages, can a mere 4 passages be answered by the OSAS?

 

[Solo]

XTruth,

When you come to understand what being born again really is, and who believers really are in Christ, then you will be able to understand that the flesh is corrupt, and mortal, and will be judged in this life for any and all sins that are committed in it. The born again, born of God new creature exists apart from the flesh, and does not sin. In fact, Paul states through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that the "inward man" delights in the law of God; while the flesh serves sin (Romans 7).

The physical body will die, and if one is serving sin they more than likely will die sooner. Paul speaks of turning a Christian brother over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, but that his born again spirit would be saved in the day of Jesus Christ.

• 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:5

A born again believer is warned throughout Scripture to maintain his walk in the Spirit, and to abide in Christ Jesus so that he/she can complete the race unashamed before the Lord, and gain rewards to lay down at His feet when He comes. The works that a believer does while walking in the flesh will be burnt up like wood, hay, and stubble, and perish forever; but the works that a believer does while walking in the Spirit will be as gold, silver, and precious stones remaining for eternity. If any man's work abide he will receive a reward; if any man's work shall be burned, he will suffer a loss, but he will be saved.

• 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

A righteous man is not righteous of his own works, but a righteous man is righteous only because Jesus Christ's righteousness is imputed to him when he believes and is born again.

• As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10
  
  1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Romans 4:1-8

Solo

 

[XTruth]

XTruth,

When you come to understand what being born again really is, and who believers really are in Christ, then you will be able to understand that the flesh is corrupt, and mortal, and will be judged in this life for any and all sins that are committed in it. The born again, born of God new creature exists apart from the flesh, and does not sin. In fact, Paul states through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that the "inward man" delights in the law of God; while the flesh serves sin (Romans 7).

The law of God in Rom.7:22 is the law of Moses he speaks of, not the law of liberty (Jas.2:10-13). Romans 7 is Paul's testimony before Christ. It was Paul's experience bound by sin under the law which illustrated his bondage to sin and the law (Rom.7:7-25), not that the law was sinful, but Paul was, before Christ.

The physical body will die, and if one is serving sin they more than likely will die sooner. Paul speaks of turning a Christian brother over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, but that his born again spirit would be saved in the day of Jesus Christ.

• 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:5

Wrong, The purpose of delivering him to Satan was to destroy the flesh. This required members to withdraw from him completely and permit Satan to afflict his body thus perhaps bringing him to repentance, that his spirit might be saved in the end. This was proven effective (2 Cor.2:6-7). All physical affliction that could be brought to him could not save his spirit unless it brought him to repentance. It was not, therefore, physical trouble which saved the soul, but repentance brought about by affliction.

A born again believer is warned throughout Scripture to maintain his walk in the Spirit, and to abide in Christ Jesus so that he/she can complete the race unashamed before the Lord, and gain rewards to lay down at His feet when He comes. The works that a believer does while walking in the flesh will be burnt up like wood, hay, and stubble, and perish forever; but the works that a believer does while walking in the Spirit will be as gold, silver, and precious stones remaining for eternity. If any man's work abide he will receive a reward; if any man's work shall be burned, he will suffer a loss, but he will be saved.

Right, 1 Cor.3:11-15. The unrighteous works a saved soul has done will be burnt up if repented of. If they have not been repented of then God will destroy them, for sin is the defilement of a Christian, also (1 Cor.3:16-17)....just have to keep reading for the whole council of God.

A righteous man is not righteous of his own works, but a righteous man is righteous only because Jesus Christ's righteousness is imputed to him when he believes and is born again.

Yes, I know. No one has ever said any differently.

• As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10

• Before coming to Christ. Lets try to understand the foundation Paul was building at this time in Romans while preaching the gospel to the Jews. They thought they were righteous b/c they had a covenant and a promise. Paul had just proved to them that they were all under sin, Gentiles and Jews (Rom.3:9). Rom.3:10 is actually quoted many O.T. Scriptures in order to clinch the argument to these Jews by their own Scripture, which they could not deny. The verses are: (Ps.14:2-3; 52:2-4; Eccl.7:20). This verse is for those who are not in Christ, so what's your point?
  
  

  1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Romans 4:1-8

Solo

Right again, justification is by faith and not by works of the Mosaic Law, for Abraham was justified 430 years before God gave that law and covenant to Moses. All of us can be justified by faith w/o law and works (Acts 10:43). Jews claimed Abraham as their father, so this was a great example for Paul to use to try and show these Jews that justification came by faith and not b/c they had a covenant and a promise....and of course, faith is a continued action (Jas.2:14-26; Abraham used as example again). Besides the appearance that you aren't precise on the timeline of the preaching, nor the exact context, you mainly just can't understand that no one on this forum believes they are saved or justified by law works, Mosaic or otherwise. This seems to be a stumblingblock to you. It is referred to in about half your post, at least, to this subject.

 

[francisdesales]

Not true. The Scriptures do not teach anywhere that a born again believer can lose one's salvation. Your misinterpretation of Scripture and tradition of men lead you to that interpretation.

I anxiously await your first explanation of 2 Peter's discussion on the subject...

To say this person was "never saved" is to ignore the clear words of Peter, who no doubt was aware of Jesus' parable of the sower and the seed.

Believed for awhile.
Fell away.

Those who fall away, who no longer believe, are condemned... Unless they beg for forgiveness.

A person who has been born again HAS won eternal salvation because he/she is now seated IN CHRIST JESUS, not his/her sinful self. A born again believer is a SINNER SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

We are seated in Christ when we obey the Commandments. We have eternal life, Christ HIMSELF, when He abides in us - which happens AS we obey the Commandments.

I never disagreed with Ephesians 2, my friend. I never said I am saved BY my works. You present another red herring. My obedience comes forth as a result of Christ within me, my will moved to do His will AND my decision to NOT return to the vomit of my former life...

Conditional Salvation proponents obey Christ Jesus because they have to, in their mind; Born again believers obey Christ Jesus because they are His workmanship and ordained by God to walk in good works.

I obey Christ because HE moves my will and I remain "neutral". Thus, the will of Christ acts within me so that I, with Christ, do good. I am judged righteous, but not without Christ, since HE moves my will and without Him, I can do nothing good.

Perhaps we need to discuss further what those who believe in 'conditional salvation' really believe. It appears you have been misinformed and we are closer together on such matters, rather than polar opposites...

From my observations of this, it appears we agree on how to attain salvation. Where we disagree on is how we MAINTAIN our salvation. It appears you think it is automatic. I believe it depends upon continued perseverance as a result of Christ within us. We would have to ACTIVELY REFUSE to follow Christ to lose salvation - something that IS possible, even after attaining salvation.

Catholics call this "mortal sin", which is spiritual death, separation from Christ. It happens ONLY as a result of WILLINGLY doing something we KNOW is a SERIOUS sin. Man CAN willingly sin, returning to the vomit of past life. That is why we must be on guard against that POTENTIAL, Mike.

One can base their hope on faith or they can base their hope on their works.

False dichotomy never presented by anyone here. Unless I missed it. WHO here believes they are saved by works, RATHER than faith/works?

Those who have been born again have Faith, Hope, and Love because they have been born of God, and the OLD NASTY FLESH now has the HOLY SPIRIT dwelling within it.

AH! YOU are lumping again...! Faith, hope and love are not the same thing. They are described DIFFERENTLY in Scriptures, and having one does NOT mean we have the others. For example, check out 1 Cor 13:2. You can have all the faith in the world, but have not love. You are then NOTHING.

I think this is a big part of our inability to speak to each other or come to agreement.

We don't see faith as synonymous with love or hope. James clearly separates faith and love, as well...

The Holy Spirit is driving the vehicle around until it is changed into a righteous, glorified, eternal body like the new creature that has been born from above.

Agreed. Without Christ's Spirit, we are doomed. Nothing of our OWN can win us salvation or any sort of sanctification.

How old were you when you were born again; where were you when you were born again, and what transpired to bring you to be born again?

No doubt, our definitions differ on 'born again".

Without ignoring my baptism in the Spirit of Christ as an infant, I believe I was 'born again' as per your definition 9 years ago. The impetus came from our Assembly of God neighbors down the street. The Spirit led me to the Catholic Church.

Are you trying to say that YOU sanctify yourself the older you get in Christ?

The only time that a natural man of the flesh can understand spiritual things is when the Holy Spirit quickens one for understanding purposes, and then after one believes in Jesus Christ after hearing the Word of God and is born again, one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach all things.

Yes, I agree that we learn about spiritual matters through experiencing the Spirit, whether it is through other people, the Scriptures, or Divine Liturgy. Length of time, however, is not indicative of one's advancement in the Spirit. First of all, one can fall into error and their conscience diverted away from truth. ALL Christians do not have the gift of prophesy or interpretations (of Scriptures). There are more "voices" within our spirit than just God's...

I have learned that man is easily deluded, which, to me, further shows the wisdom of Christ's establishment of a visible Church. (Mat 18:16-17)

The Scriptures are clear that a born again believer must walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul speaks of the warring that goes on within a born again believer between the flesh and the spirit in Romans 7. Therefore, a born again believer is a brand new creature having never been created before. That is why Jesus teaches about one being born from above.

I agree.

This new creature is not a new creature because of being a believer, never to be an unbeliever again. This new creature is born of God, never able to be unborn of God. If you can cease to having ever existed as a physical human being born on this earth, and unborn yourself physically from your fleshly parents; I will believe you when you tell me that you can unborn yourself from your Father, God Almighty.

Were the Jews in the desert "unborn of God" when they fell away? Remember, Paul CLEARLY warns Christans that we COULD suffer the same fate.

I think the idea of "born of God" is meant as an analogy that some take TOO far in its application... As all analogies, they are not meant to be literal in EVERY sense.

Otherwise, you have a very confused 1 John reading with those who "never were of God" "one can never sin if they are of God" "those who never say they sin are liars", etc... If the analogy is taken too far, too literally, your head begins to spin...

They died in the wilderness, and they did not enter into the promised land for the same reason that individuals will not enter into the Kingdom of God; because of UNBELIEF.

Exactly. Or rather, they believed - and then did not believe any longer. Certainly, they passed through the Reed Sea (a prefigurement of baptism, which saves and saved ALL the Jews) and were saved from slavery (as we are regarding sin). They believed - how could they not! THEY EXPERIENCED the works of God through the passage, the manna, the Decalogue. And yet...

We know the rest of the story. Some didn't make it. MANY didn't make it. Apparently, the road REMAINS narrow to the Kingdom of God, my friend.

Those who believe and are born again do not and will not depart from God, and the warning is not to born again believers concerning unbelief, but of those who have not believed.

I disagree. It is impossible to make such a conclusion from Paul's 1 Cor 10 section unless you ignore Paul's audience. Paul writes to the Corinthian community, all of whom are believers, all had been baptized, all were in the Spirit, all were given SOME gifts of the Spirit. Paul was not writing some letter that was published on the Greek internet "to whom it may concern". He was writing to a community he and others had brought into salvation.

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Heb 3:7-12

Who are "Paul's" brethren? Is he writing to the Roman Emperor? Jews? Non-believers? No, he is writing to Hebrew Christian believers once illuminated, although still babes in the faith. Believers are "Paul's" brothers. He recognizes, unlike you, that believers can become unbelievers, IF they follow evil in their hearts.

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.[/color] Hebrews 3:19

No doubt. A warning given that those who fall away cannot enter God's rest. What more do you want? "Paul's" words have no meaning IF they CANNOT fall away into unbelief. WHO CARES about the Jews falling away if they are IMMUNE from that fate??? Really. If your idea was true, "Paul" would be GLOATING or PRAISING GOD, not WARNING believers...

Paul is warning those who have an evil heart of unbelief. Those who have been born again are now a new creature, and the inward man of that new creature delights in the law of God, but the sold under sin flesh in which dwells no good thing serves sin. O wretched man that I am; who is going to save me from this body of death?! Thank you Jesus for overcoming sin so that I can have eternal life through your work on the cross.

You seem to think that once a person is a new creation, he cannot fall, ignoring all of the exhortations to REMAIN faithful.

Was Adam, a new creation, unable to fall, as well?
Were the Jews, a new creation as a people, unable to fall?
Are Christians, ALL new creations by definition, unable to fall?

Of course not. ALL CAN FALL. That is what Paul clearly says. {YOU} BEWARE. ALL of you hearing this gospel.

Paul did not tell the audience "OK, those who are "born from above", this doesn't apply to you. Go ahead and take a break, this section, 1 Cor 10, it's only for you unbeliever Christians..."

Being a new creation doesn't mean one CANNOT fall. It means we have been given a NEW PRINCIPLE within us. Now, we are guided by the Holy Spirit, rather than by our OWN selfish and evil ways. But as any guide, HE can be ignored and WE, once enlightened, can RETURN to our previous life.

And, this condition is WORSE than before!

WORSE!

A person would have been better off had they NOT been "born again", in this case... Why? Because they were given a greater opportunity. Those who have been given, much will be expected of...

This is a crushing blow to "OSAS", my friend. I do not doubt your walk, but I fear you are mistaken here. You and I must beware of the devil and falling away into our previous lives.

Regards

 

[Good News Brown]

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
(WHAT DOES THIS MEAN OTHER THAN WHAT IT SAYS?)(THE TRUE MEANING OF 1 JN.3:9 AND 5:18; the righteous don't in b/c there is no sin in righteousness (Jn.8:31-34; Gal.6:7-8; 1 Jn.1:5-6))

However, righteous in this context refers to one who is just, lawful. For instance, Cornelius the Roman centurion was a just man (Acts 10:22) which has the same contextual meaning to the same word righteous in Ezekiel. Yet, Peter was summoned to give the Word to him to which he and his household would be saved.

 

[MarkT]

francis

When Paul went to Corinth, he decided to know nothing among the Corinthians except they knew Jesus Christ and him crucified. He laid a foundation to build on, and he expected that each man would build on the foundation. He was hoping by his return that they would be mature men; each man building on the foundation he laid; increasing in faith and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Of course he found quarreling instead.

What bothers me is the CC is stunting your growth by telling you you can't believe what the Bible says. Jesus said, 'He who hears the word and understands it, he indeed bears fruit.' The man who hears this, understands that understanding the word is important - not just hearing the word. Today, reading the Bible is the only way, probably because there are so many false teachers - how are you going to know who is false?

Jesus said, 'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.' John 10:27,28 Notice he says, 'I know them', as opposed to, 'I never knew you', and he says, 'they follow me', as opposed to strangers. Will Jesus lose any of them? No.

Jesus said, 'the sheep follow him for they know his voice', John 10:4 You say his voice can't be known. It is subjective. You have to listen to the CC. Not true. The sheep do not follow strangers.

Yet this does not mean they can not be tempted. We are here to be tempted, to overcome, to learn, to grow; holding fast our confidence.

Peter walked on water. Who was there to remind him he could fall? - 'Hey Peter! Don't forget you can fall!' Who said that? Jesus didn't say, 'while you're walking on water, don't forget you can fall'. No. He said, "Come." But when Peter saw the wind, he was afraid, and he began to sink. Jesus reached out his hand, and caught him, saying to him, "O man of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Warnings are given to men who are behaving like ordinary men. But Peter wasn't behaving like an ordinary man. Even so, he began to sink. We don't beat our brothers over the head telling them they can fall. We are not supposed to be ordinary.

The sheep are well aware of the ones who have fallen. We know Satan is trying to get us to fall. We know the fallen would love to see us fall, and ordinary men would love to make us ordinary. But we are not of this world. We are more than just conquerors. We are sons of the Most High!

As far as OSAS goes, my view is that it is over simplified and without context, so as a teaching, I would reject it. But as an expression of faith, I have to admire their confidence.

I'm not going to tell them they can fall. Are you? If you want to insist on your way, you will answer for your words. If you cause any who believe in him to fall away, you will be held responsible.

I have to chide Solo for even bringing up this thread. Maybe not.

Sorry, I should have put 'in' in quotes, not 'done'. My mistake.

 

[Solo]

Not true. The Scriptures do not teach anywhere that a born again believer can lose one's salvation. Your misinterpretation of Scripture and tradition of men lead you to that interpretation.

I anxiously await your first explanation of 2 Peter's discussion on the subject...

To say this person was "never saved" is to ignore the clear words of Peter, who no doubt was aware of Jesus' parable of the sower and the seed.

Believed for awhile.
Fell away.

Those who fall away, who no longer believe, are condemned... Unless they beg for forgiveness.

No where in 2 Peter does any born again believer lose their salvation.

A person who has been born again HAS won eternal salvation because he/she is now seated IN CHRIST JESUS, not his/her sinful self. A born again believer is a SINNER SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

We are seated in Christ when we obey the Commandments. We have eternal life, Christ HIMSELF, when He abides in us - which happens AS we obey the Commandments.

I never disagreed with Ephesians 2, my friend. I never said I am saved BY my works. You present another red herring. My obedience comes forth as a result of Christ within me, my will moved to do His will AND my decision to NOT return to the vomit of my former life...

No where in the Scriptures does it teach that one who has been born again will lose their salvation.

Conditional Salvation proponents obey Christ Jesus because they have to, in their mind; Born again believers obey Christ Jesus because they are His workmanship and ordained by God to walk in good works.

I obey Christ because HE moves my will and I remain "neutral". Thus, the will of Christ acts within me so that I, with Christ, do good. I am judged righteous, but not without Christ, since HE moves my will and without Him, I can do nothing good.

Perhaps we need to discuss further what those who believe in 'conditional salvation' really believe. It appears you have been misinformed and we are closer together on such matters, rather than polar opposites...

The misinformation is that God Almighty is not able to keep His chosen secure. All who are born again will enter the kingdom of God.

From my observations of this, it appears we agree on how to attain salvation. Where we disagree on is how we MAINTAIN our salvation. It appears you think it is automatic. I believe it depends upon continued perseverance as a result of Christ within us. We would have to ACTIVELY REFUSE to follow Christ to lose salvation - something that IS possible, even after attaining salvation.

Perseverence of the saints is impressed upon each born gain believer by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Peter rejected Jesus Christ three time and did not lose his salvation, nor would he have. I know of no born again believer who has lost their salvation. I only know of those who are not saved, but believe they are; most of who attend the Roman Catholic church.

Catholics call this "mortal sin", which is spiritual death, separation from Christ. It happens ONLY as a result of WILLINGLY doing something we KNOW is a SERIOUS sin. Man CAN willingly sin, returning to the vomit of past life. That is why we must be on guard against that POTENTIAL, Mike.

A misinterpretation of justification and being born again. All born again believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. God says this, not I.

One can base their hope on faith or they can base their hope on their works.

False dichotomy never presented by anyone here. Unless I missed it. WHO here believes they are saved by works, RATHER than faith/works?

Not a false dichotomy, the truth of the Word of God. No one is saved by works. Only those who are saved by grace through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast.

Those who are born again are Christ's workmanship, not their own workmanship based on them keeping commandments. Those who keep Jesus commandments are those who are forever His, bought and paid for by him. The Roman Catholic church has to base their teachings on conditional salvation, otherwise they wouldn't have anything for their priests to do since the Eucharist would be shown to be unnecessary. This is one of the traditions of men that keeps people from the truth.

Those who have been born again have Faith, Hope, and Love because they have been born of God, and the OLD NASTY FLESH now has the HOLY SPIRIT dwelling within it.

AH! YOU are lumping again...! Faith, hope and love are not the same thing. They are described DIFFERENTLY in Scriptures, and having one does NOT mean we have the others. For example, check out 1 Cor 13:2. You can have all the faith in the world, but have not love. You are then NOTHING.

Those who claim to have faith, but not love, have not been born again.

John explains this precisely in 1 John:

• 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

I think this is a big part of our inability to speak to each other or come to agreement.

We don't see faith as synonymous with love or hope. James clearly separates faith and love, as well...

James does not separate faith and love as well.

James is specific that faith is not the faith of those born again if there is not good works that follow. Love is an evidence of those who are born again; for those who love the Lord have everlasting life which is by faith.

The Holy Spirit is driving the vehicle around until it is changed into a righteous, glorified, eternal body like the new creature that has been born from above.

Agreed. Without Christ's Spirit, we are doomed. Nothing of our OWN can win us salvation or any sort of sanctification.

Therefore, those who are born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

You still haven't addressed why you refuse to believe the Word of God concerning this.

• 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:3-14

How old were you when you were born again; where were you when you were born again, and what transpired to bring you to be born again?

No doubt, our definitions differ on 'born again".

Without ignoring my baptism in the Spirit of Christ as an infant, I believe I was 'born again' as per your definition 9 years ago. The impetus came from our Assembly of God neighbors down the street. The Spirit led me to the Catholic Church.

Did you test the spirit that led you to the Catholic church to see whether he was from God or not?

• Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

Are you trying to say that YOU sanctify yourself the older you get in Christ?

And what is your definition of sanctify?

The only time that a natural man of the flesh can understand spiritual things is when the Holy Spirit quickens one for understanding purposes, and then after one believes in Jesus Christ after hearing the Word of God and is born again, one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach all things.

Yes, I agree that we learn about spiritual matters through experiencing the Spirit, whether it is through other people, the Scriptures, or Divine Liturgy. Length of time, however, is not indicative of one's advancement in the Spirit. First of all, one can fall into error and their conscience diverted away from truth. ALL Christians do not have the gift of prophesy or interpretations (of Scriptures). There are more "voices" within our spirit than just God's...

Christian maturity comes with spiritual exercise. As one is obedient to the Word of God, one matures and becomes more and more like Christ Jesus who is our goal. Those who do not build according to the truth of God's Word will suffer loss, but they themselves will be saved.

• 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15

I have learned that man is easily deluded, which, to me, further shows the wisdom of Christ's establishment of a visible Church. (Mat 18:16-17)

And that, my friend, is the stumbling block set before you to keep you from the truth. Hopefully, you will overcome this error of judgment. The conditional salvation dogma was established by the "visible church" for the purpose of controlling the laity. They still parade around worshiping a dead Jesus on the cross at all of their gatherings together.

The Scriptures are clear that a born again believer must walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul speaks of the warring that goes on within a born again believer between the flesh and the spirit in Romans 7. Therefore, a born again believer is a brand new creature having never been created before. That is why Jesus teaches about one being born from above.

I agree.

Since you agree with that, when does that "new creature" fall into sin, when the Scriptures teach that the "new creature" cannot sin?

• 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

This new creature is not a new creature because of being a believer, never to be an unbeliever again. This new creature is born of God, never able to be unborn of God. If you can cease to having ever existed as a physical human being born on this earth, and unborn yourself physically from your fleshly parents; I will believe you when you tell me that you can unborn yourself from your Father, God Almighty.

Were the Jews in the desert "unborn of God" when they fell away? Remember, Paul CLEARLY warns Christans that we COULD suffer the same fate.

The Israelites in the wilderness that fell away were not born of God. They fell because of their unbelief.

I think the idea of "born of God" is meant as an analogy that some take TOO far in its application... As all analogies, they are not meant to be literal in EVERY sense.

Otherwise, you have a very confused 1 John reading with those who "never were of God" "one can never sin if they are of God" "those who never say they sin are liars", etc... If the analogy is taken too far, too literally, your head begins to spin...

Jesus was literal in his explanation of one being born of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God. To place a human perspective on it as being "too literally" only makes your head spin if you take it without faith.

First John is very clear stating that those that have been born of God do not sin, and cannot sin. He is not speaking of the flesh, he is speaking of the new born of God creature. Those who have been born again can choose to walk in the flesh where the flesh sins, or to walk in the spirit where the new creature cannot sin. If you cannot distinguish within yourself when you are walking in the spirit and walking in the flesh, then you have not been born again. If you can distinguish between the two, then you know that when walking in the spirit you cannot sin. Walk in the spirit so that you do not fulfill the desires of the flesh. The desires of the flesh are sins because the flesh is sold under sin, and in the flesh dwells no good thing. Those who walk in the flesh will reap destruction; and this destruction will be to their flesh. Only those who have been born of God will remain with Him in eternal life when the body is changed incorruptible, immortal at the coming of Jesus Christ.

They died in the wilderness, and they did not enter into the promised land for the same reason that individuals will not enter into the Kingdom of God; because of UNBELIEF.

Exactly. Or rather, they believed - and then did not believe any longer. Certainly, they passed through the Reed Sea (a prefigurement of baptism, which saves and saved ALL the Jews) and were saved from slavery (as we are regarding sin). They believed - how could they not! THEY EXPERIENCED the works of God through the passage, the manna, the Decalogue. And yet...

We know the rest of the story. Some didn't make it. MANY didn't make it. Apparently, the road REMAINS narrow to the Kingdom of God, my friend.

The Scriptures say that they did not enter into the promised land because of unbelief. They did not believe God, they did not submit to His authority, they were not born again. They did not make it into God's rest because they did not believe.

When an individual believes in Jesus Christ, they are born again and they will enter into God's rest.

Those who believe and are born again do not and will not depart from God, and the warning is not to born again believers concerning unbelief, but of those who have not believed.

I disagree. It is impossible to make such a conclusion from Paul's 1 Cor 10 section unless you ignore Paul's audience. Paul writes to the Corinthian community, all of whom are believers, all had been baptized, all were in the Spirit, all were given SOME gifts of the Spirit. Paul was not writing some letter that was published on the Greek internet "to whom it may concern". He was writing to a community he and others had brought into salvation.

Prayerfully read 1 Corinthians 10, then afterwards tell me which verses speak to a born again believer losing his/her salvation.

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. 25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: 26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. 27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: 29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? 31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. 1 Corinthians 10:1-33

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Heb 3:7-12

Who are "Paul's" brethren? Is he writing to the Roman Emperor? Jews? Non-believers? No, he is writing to Hebrew Christian believers once illuminated, although still babes in the faith. Believers are "Paul's" brothers. He recognizes, unlike you, that believers can become unbelievers, IF they follow evil in their hearts.

Born again, born of God believers cannot be unborn. Once one is born of God into the new creature, he is eternally secure in Christ Jesus sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.[/color] Hebrews 3:19

No doubt. A warning given that those who fall away cannot enter God's rest. What more do you want? "Paul's" words have no meaning IF they CANNOT fall away into unbelief. WHO CARES about the Jews falling away if they are IMMUNE from that fate??? Really. If your idea was true, "Paul" would be GLOATING or PRAISING GOD, not WARNING believers...

Paul was sent to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the unbelieving. He continually warned those who had not been born of God to not believe after hearing the truth of the gospel lest their end should worse than before they heard the truth.

Those who have been born of God do not sin, cannot sin, and are sealed unto the day of redemption in Christ Jesus. The nasty flesh that the new creature lives in is sold under sin, therefore if one chooses to walk in the flesh instead of the spirit the flesh will sin. There is a battle going on between the sinful flesh and the born of God spirit. Read Romans 7.

Paul is warning those who have an evil heart of unbelief. Those who have been born again are now a new creature, and the inward man of that new creature delights in the law of God, but the sold under sin flesh in which dwells no good thing serves sin. O wretched man that I am; who is going to save me from this body of death?! Thank you Jesus for overcoming sin so that I can have eternal life through your work on the cross.

You seem to think that once a person is a new creation, he cannot fall, ignoring all of the exhortations to REMAIN faithful.

A born again born of God believer must walk in the spirit to build upon the foundation of their faith, Jesus Christ so that their works remain for eternity, and not burned up. A successful walk with Christ is one where one submits to the Lordship of Jesus Christ every moment of every single day. And when we "fall" and sin, we must confess that as sin and repent turning to God's way again, and walk in the spirit. The times that we fall is not falling from salvation, but falling from fellowship and rewards.

Was Adam, a new creation, unable to fall, as well?

Adam was a new creation given free will and he transgressed God's commandment. Because of this he died spiritually, and was dying physically at the point of his disobedience. All mankind was now cursed with sin, and all would die and were then condemned.

Only through Jesus Christ are we able to escape this condemnation by being born again.

Were the Jews, a new creation as a people, unable to fall?

Not all of the Israelites believed.

Are Christians, ALL new creations by definition, unable to fall?

All those who have been born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. The works of these born again believers will be judged to determine rewards or loss of rewards, but salvation is guaranteed in Christ Jesus.

Of course not. ALL CAN FALL. That is what Paul clearly says. {YOU} BEWARE. ALL of you hearing this gospel.

Paul did not tell the audience "OK, those who are "born from above", this doesn't apply to you. Go ahead and take a break, this section, 1 Cor 10, it's only for you unbeliever Christians..."

Being a new creation doesn't mean one CANNOT fall. It means we have been given a NEW PRINCIPLE within us. Now, we are guided by the Holy Spirit, rather than by our OWN selfish and evil ways. But as any guide, HE can be ignored and WE, once enlightened, can RETURN to our previous life.

And, this condition is WORSE than before!

WORSE!

A person would have been better off had they NOT been "born again", in this case... Why? Because they were given a greater opportunity. Those who have been given, much will be expected of...

This is a crushing blow to "OSAS", my friend. I do not doubt your walk, but I fear you are mistaken here. You and I must beware of the devil and falling away into our previous lives.

Regards

Wrong. It will be worse for a person who has heard the truth of the gospel and rejected it, as opposed to not ever have heard it preached.

Here is the gospel out of my Saviour's own mouth:

• 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:15-18

 

[XTruth]

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
(WHAT DOES THIS MEAN OTHER THAN WHAT IT SAYS?)(THE TRUE MEANING OF 1 JN.3:9 AND 5:18; the righteous don't in b/c there is no sin in righteousness (Jn.8:31-34; Gal.6:7-8; 1 Jn.1:5-6))

However, righteous in this context refers to one who is just, lawful. For instance, Cornelius the Roman centurion was a just man (Acts 10:22) which has the same contextual meaning to the same word righteous in Ezekiel. Yet, Peter was summoned to give the Word to him to which he and his household would be saved.

Yes about Cornelius, Wrong concerning your comparison...

Some will argue that this righteousness is not personal holiness of obedience to the gospel, but mere legal righteousness; the righteousness of the law and that it does not prove a man to be saved from sin, or born again. However, this is just human theory and not at all scriptural truth. If it was the righteousness of the law, that is what must be fulfilled in born again ones (Rom.8:1-4). Whatever the kind of righteousness, it was something that: one could turn away from; if he did turn away from it, he committed iniquity or sin; he died if he left it and went into sin; it would be remembered if he did turn from it to commit sin; it gave him life as long as he abided in it and didn’t turn from it to commit sin; he had it until he did sin; it wouldn’t deliver him from death if he left it, but if he kept it he lived.

We have to conclude that if it had the power of life and death in it, depending on whether or not one kept it, the kind of righteousness here is that which God demands of born again ones in the New Testament (Mat.6:33; Acts 10:35; Rom.4:3-22; 6:13-20; 8:4; 1 Pt.2:24). We have no authority to make this righteousness different from what God has already demanded in both testaments. God demands us to fulfill the righteousness that the law demanded (Rom.8:4), so if a person was righteous under the law for keeping it and one is righteous under grace for keeping it, then what’s the difference? If all have been required to live by it, in either testament, then all must have it, or be lost (Eze.3:20; 18:24-26; 33:12-13; Jer.22:3; 33:15; Hos.10:12).

 

[francisdesales]

No where in 2 Peter does any born again believer lose their salvation.

Denial will get you nowhere... This is just a way to escape explaining it, and such ways are not the ways of the Lord, since the Lord is Truth... Rather than allowing you to get away with brushing off the Word of God and hoping I forget about it in a long post, I have decided to not bother with the rest of the post and will concentrate on how 2 Peter completely overturns your idea of a saved person not losing eternal life.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21


They have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Christ. That describes a saved person. Unsaved people do NOT escape the pollutions of the world.

I presume you have read Romans 7 and Romans 8? Does Paul explain the differences between one under the influences of the Spirit clearly enough for you?

Are you suggesting there is ANOTHER manner of salvation? ANOTHER means of escaping the entanglements "therein"?

If one has escaped the entanglements of this world, Solo, please explain how they did it WITHOUT the Spirit...

Your denial shows the huge whole in the entire edifice of your theology. It claims simultaneously that only the Spirit can allow us to do good works, while denying a person has the Spirit at ANY point in their lives if they subsequently fall away. Nonsense. ONLY BY CHRIST can we do anything good. Remember Ephesians 2;8-9? John's Gospel?

The Word of God makes it clear it is about "Do you have faith in me today, my son?" not about "Lord, Lord, I praised your name 20 years ago, you owe me heaven"...

Salvation is the escape from sin. Clearly, the ENTIRE CHAPTER of 2 Peter 2 is a testimony to falling away. IF EVEN ANGELS have fallen away, what makes you think a Christian is immune???

Regards

 

[A-Christian]

No where in the Scriptures does it teach that one who has been born again will lose their salvation.

2 Peter 2: 20-22
Looks like it says that a born again believer can indeed lose thier slavation.

20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice than, after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit; and: The sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[MarkT]

No where in the Scriptures does it teach that one who has been born again will lose their salvation.

2 Peter 2: 20-22
Looks like it says that a born again believer can indeed lose thier slavation.

20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice than, after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit; and: The sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Not necessarily. False teachers - that's the subject of this part of the letter - are believers first. They have to be. They believe their teaching is true, and Peter says, 'many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.' I've encountered these people, the left wing feminists, the homosexual rights people, and I can tell you, they are the most vicious of believers; exactly what Peter says, 'Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones...Like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant...They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed.' They have the name of being alive, but inside they are dead.

I think the key thing to see is that Peter calls them dogs and sows, and according to the true proverb, the dog returns to his vomit. And in order for the proverb to be true, the dog necessarily/inevitably returns to his vomit. In other words, being a dog, that's what dogs do; they inevitably return to their vomit. So we have a sense here that these creatures are known to God, - because Peter said the Lord knows how to keep the 'unrighteous' under punishment. And being 'unrighteous' does not suggest they were saved to me. In fact Peter lumps them in with the fallen angels, and the men of Sodom and Gomor'rah. God does not destroy them yet but they are meant for destruction. The key thing to remember is that they were made for destruction; they are put on this earth to do what they do and to be destroyed.

Are dogs saved? Are swine saved? I don't think so. In fact Jesus said, 'Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.' Mt. 7:6

I can tell you from experience, that's what they do. You can go to one forum in particular, XnForums, to see what they say. But do not register or participate because I have bound them over to the nether gloom of that forum until the day of judgment. They will never escape. You don't want to be found among them.

Now if you still want to argue that they were saved and then unsaved, then you are not seeing what I am seeing.

Good soil doesn't bear evil fruit. A good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree evil fruit - no one gathers figs from thorns or thorns from a fig tree. It might be the same water (2 people hearing the same thing) but thorns spring up in one, and figs in another.

 

[Solo]

2 Peter 2:20-22

• 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Peter is talking about false prophets who come in amongst the born again believers, and he speaks of them having escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but that they are again entangled in the pollutions of the world and overcome so that the latter end of them is worse than the beginning. Peter continues to describe that it would have been better for them to not have known the way of righteousness, than, after having known the way, to have turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

First, all people who hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ gain the knowledge of escaping from the pollutions of the world through the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and as the seed that falls on the wayside, satan removes the seed lest they believe and become saved.

• 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Instead of becoming born again believers, they become false prophets, tools utilized by satan. Peter describes these folks as being overcome; and they are overcome by satan. Peter explains that it would have been better had these not known the way of Salvation than to have known it and turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

What is this holy commandment delivered unto them?

• 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
  1 John 3:20-24

In verse 22, Peter describes the dog returning his vomit, and the pig returning to her wallowing. The dog remains a dog, and the pig remains a pig; neither of these were ever born again as sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ. What did Jesus say about dogs and pigs?

• 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Matthew 7:6

They are not, nor ever have been anything other than unbelievers who knew the way of the truth, but rejected it at returned to their evil ways.

These are as those described in 2 Timothy, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.

• 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 2 Timothy 3:5-9

 

[francisdesales]

Not necessarily. False teachers - that's the subject of this part of the letter...

The beginning of the chapter speaks about false teachers. The end, the part in question, speaks about those who follow the false teachers, those who were saved and fall away...

...'many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.

Which is speaking about those who fall away.

WHO CARES why they fall away. That is not the issue. WHETHER THEY DO. That is the issue. Clearly, people fall away. In this case, they are led away by false teachers. And these false teachers continue to lead people away - OSAS being an example of that...

I think the key thing to see is that Peter calls them dogs and sows, and according to the true proverb, the dog returns to his vomit. And in order for the proverb to be true, the dog necessarily/inevitably returns to his vomit. In other words, being a dog, that's what dogs do; they inevitably return to their vomit. So we have a sense here that these creatures are known to God, - because Peter said the Lord knows how to keep the 'unrighteous' under punishment. And being 'unrighteous' does not suggest they were saved to me.

Nice try. It says they escaped entanglement. You are trying to take a proverb and apply it too literally WHILE REFUSING to account for the FACT that Peter says they were saved already...

In fact Peter lumps them in with the fallen angels, and the men of Sodom and Gomor'rah. God does not destroy them yet but they are meant for destruction. The key thing to remember is that they were made for destruction; they are put on this earth to do what they do and to be destroyed.

No doubt, God knows who of the saved last week will fall away and are "meant for destruction". WE don't. As such, we are told to persevere, which while we are in Christ, are guaranteed eternal life.

Are dogs saved? Are swine saved? I don't think so. In fact Jesus said, 'Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.' Mt. 7:6

Which, naturally, destroys OSAS, since they once WERE saved.

Can you explain who ELSE escapes entanglements of the world? Is there ANOTHER name under the earth by which someone is saved???

I can tell you from experience, that's what they do. You can go to one forum in particular, XnForums, to see what they say. But do not register or participate because I have bound them over to the nether gloom of that forum until the day of judgment. They will never escape. You don't want to be found among them.

YOU HAVE DONE WHAT???

:crazy

Please do not tempt me to say something hilarious by posting such garbage anymore...

Now if you still want to argue that they were saved and then unsaved, then you are not seeing what I am seeing.

THIS proves your point?

Good soil doesn't bear evil fruit.

Apparently, the seed was planted in a different soil. Scriptures clearly say "THEY BELIEVED FOR AWHILE".

Thus, a person can be a believer FOR AWHILE, and then fall away...

It would have been better had they NEVER been saved - which clearly means OSAS is a crock.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you for finally responding. Let's see what you got...

2 Peter 2:20-22

• 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
  

Peter is talking about false prophets who come in amongst the born again believers, and he speaks of them having escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but that they are again entangled in the pollutions of the world and overcome so that the latter end of them is worse than the beginning. Peter continues to describe that it would have been better for them to not have known the way of righteousness, than, after having known the way, to have turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Whether Peter is speaking about false prophets or those who follow the false prophets does not matter in our discussion. It doesn't matter HOW one turns away from Christ in this discussion. The point is THEY DO.

The key point, Solo, is they ONCE ESCAPED ENTANGLEMENT. Now, whether they are NOW false teachers, or just ordinary lay people, it doesn't matter. The persons in question had escaped false entanglement through the knowledge of Jesus Christ! Doesn't that describe a saved person?

Does the Bible suggest ANOTHER way, ANOTHER gate, by which a person can "escape entanglement"???

Is there another name by which we can be saved??? Isn't that what salvation is? Escaping entanglements of the world - sin?

First, all people who hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ gain the knowledge of escaping from the pollutions of the world through the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and as the seed that falls on the wayside, satan removes the seed lest they believe and become saved.

Solo, it says they escaped entanglements. It doesn't say they read about stuff in a book as an atheist would, and then REMAIN within the entanglement of sin...

In verse 22, Peter describes the dog returning his vomit, and the pig returning to her wallowing. The dog remains a dog, and the pig remains a pig; neither of these were ever born again as sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ. What did Jesus say about dogs and pigs?

As I told Mark, nice try, but in the end, exegesis will NOT allow it. This is a proverb. Peter SPECIFICALLY says that. You are trying to apply metaphors in the Bible to a proverb. The proverb's intent is to show the CURRENT state. They have returned to the vomit AS a dog would. THAT IS AS FAR AS YOU CAN GO WITH THIS PROVERB! It doesn't comment on the previous life of the "believer".

Why? Because this proverb suggests (as the "escape entanglement" part does) that they HAD escaped their former life BEFORE. Thus, you go too far while ignoring what is already there...

Is there ANOTHER way to escape one's former life of sin???

Your defense of this Scripture depends upon ANOTHER means of being saved. Please cite Scriptures that tell us there is another way of escaping entanglements of sin THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS CHRIST - but are not 'saved'

No, yours is eigesis, pure and simple. It is a denial of what is plainly there. These verses clearly destroy OSAS, because they discuss a saved individual, a person who escaped sin, only to fall again into sin again. Even the proverb states that! This condition is worse than before. The fact that it is worse than before is another nail in the coffin of one-time and one-time only justification.

2 Peter 2 puts a fork in OSAS...

"It is finished"

Regards

 

[MarkT]

The beginning of the chapter speaks about false teachers. The end, the part in question, speaks about those who follow the false teachers, those who were saved and fall away...


MarkT wrote:

...'many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.


Which is speaking about those who fall away.

WHO CARES why they fall away. That is not the issue. WHETHER THEY DO. That is the issue. Clearly, people fall away. In this case, they are led away by false teachers. And these false teachers continue to lead people away - OSAS being an example of that...

No. He's still talking about false teachers of the word. We know that because he calls them 'waterless springs' which means the word of God is not in them - the truth is not in them, therefore they are 'false', and they are 'springs', meaning they are teachers of the word, and 'unrighteous', meaning they were never saved. This requires some spiritual insight. If the truth isn't in them, then they are 'waterless' and they are 'springs' if men come to them for 'water' which again means they are teachers because men go to teachers to be taught. Peter is using the spiritual term 'water' which Jesus used when he said, 'Everyone who drinks of this water will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.' John 4:13,14 Indeed, we can not survive without water. The branches wither without water. So are many of you near death. You have to see this or you will never understand. The words of life are life giving.

Being teachers, true or false, nevertheless, they would have to be believers, though I acknowledge that calling them believers leaves a bad taste in my mouth; calling them believers gives the true believer a bad name. Yet two men can be 'watered' by the same words, and one will bear thorns while the other one will bear fruit. Indeed Peter says, because of them, 'the way of truth' will be reviled. What I can see is that many people revile the way of truth, even the godless, but it is especially hurtful when it comes from our own brethren.

Now gaining knowledge of something, if it meets with an evil heart, doesn't necessarily mean they were saved. What they believed wasn't necessarily a saving belief. And 'escaped the defilements of this world' doesn't necessarily mean they were saved. It just means that they resisted the temptation to sin for a while. But they are dogs, like I said, and the dog returns to his vomit according to the proverb.

Now your entire argument is premised on the first thing you said, so it follows that if your statement is false then your argument falls apart.

Let's observe some rules. Unless the word 'saved' appears in the writing, we can not use the writing to support an argument. Unless the word 'saved' appears in the verse, let's not assume it is about salvation. And let's not ignore the writing where it is used, like - 'If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be 'saved.' 1 Cor. 3:15

 

[XTruth]

The beginning of the chapter speaks about false teachers. The end, the part in question, speaks about those who follow the false teachers, those who were saved and fall away...


MarkT wrote:

...'many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.


Which is speaking about those who fall away.

WHO CARES why they fall away. That is not the issue. WHETHER THEY DO. That is the issue. Clearly, people fall away. In this case, they are led away by false teachers. And these false teachers continue to lead people away - OSAS being an example of that...

No. He's still talking about false teachers of the word. We know that because he calls them 'waterless springs' which means the word of God is not in them - the truth is not in them, therefore they are 'false', and they are 'springs', meaning they are teachers of the word, and 'unrighteous', meaning they were never saved. This requires some spiritual insight. If the truth isn't in them, then they are 'waterless' and they are 'springs' if men come to them for 'water' which again means they are teachers because men go to teachers to be taught. Peter is using the spiritual term 'water' which Jesus used when he said, 'Everyone who drinks of this water will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.' John 4:13,14 Indeed, we can not survive without water. The branches wither without water. So are many of you near death. You have to see this or you will never understand. The words of life are life giving.

Being teachers, true or false, nevertheless, they would have to be believers, though I acknowledge that calling them believers leaves a bad taste in my mouth; calling them believers gives the true believer a bad name. Yet two men can be 'watered' by the same words, and one will bear thorns while the other one will bear fruit. Indeed Peter says, because of them, 'the way of truth' will be reviled. What I can see is that many people revile the way of truth, even the godless, but it is especially hurtful when it comes from our own brethren.

Now gaining knowledge of something, if it meets with an evil heart, doesn't necessarily mean they were saved. What they believed wasn't necessarily a saving belief. And 'escaped the defilements of this world' doesn't necessarily mean they were saved. It just means that they resisted the temptation to sin for a while. But they are dogs, like I said, and the dog returns to his vomit according to the proverb.

Now your entire argument is premised on the first thing you said, so it follows that if your statement is false then your argument falls apart.

Let's observe some rules. Unless the word 'saved' appears in the writing, we can not use the writing to support an argument. Unless the word 'saved' appears in the verse, let's not assume it is about salvation. And let's not ignore the writing where it is used, like - 'If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be 'saved.' 1 Cor. 3:15

I'll let francis respond to your post, but I keep on seeing 1 Cor.3:11-15 verses posted. I admit, by themselves, it appears that OSAS, but not if you keep reading the following 2 verses.

1 Cor.3:16-17
"16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Sin is defilement of the temple of God, which the new creature, born from above believer is (Mat.15:18-20; 1 Cor.6:9-20; 2 Cor.6:16).

1 COR. 3:11-15 must be understood that all things are written down in books (Rev.20:11-15) and that everything an overcoming Christian has ever done will be burned...the repented and forgiven sin is devoured i n this fire, but the righteous works will remain and be rewarded. This is the judgment seat of Christ that takes place after the Rapture. All people "any man" with unrepented sin left on their account at the end of their life or the Rapture will not take part in this, but will appear at the white thrown judgment at the end of the thousand year reign (Eze.18:24-26; Rev.22:11). If OSAS, then God would never destroy any Christian, as 1 Cor.3:11-15 says....whole council of God :yes :eyebrow Hope you see it :amen

 

[MarkT]

Re 22:15
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

'Dog' is a metaphor for evildoer, and we know all evildoers will be gathered out of the kingdom. Mt. 13:41 'Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of evildoers.' Ps. 22:16 If you think dogs are saved, then that's up to you. Nevertheless, the proverb says the dog returns to his vomit. And Peter calls them dogs. There is nothing there that teaches that they were saved. In fact his letter isn't about losing salvation. It's about the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord, 'Beware of false prophets'.