Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[lovely]

shad,

Thank you so much for your response to me. I think believers who believe that the Word says that we can only be born again once are also saying "those who are faithful to the Lord have eternal security." Solo's title is, "Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer." That's why I asked Xtruth to define a sincere believer's faith, because aparently we agree that eternal life is for the born again believer, but maybe we disagree on something else.

You mentioned OSAS, and I am a believer who understands the Word to say that we are only born again once, I am not OSAS. (Though I have been many things at one point or another over the years.)

Apostasy, or one who does not abide, or overcomes, will happen, but this by nature seems to indicate that faith once lost can not be retored.....are they sons or has God simply just given them over to their sin by not chastising them? I think that Scripture says they aren't, but it also indicates some sort of faith being in them, some sort of truth, even gifts...but I am still studying these things because I can't understand how they can have gifts and some truth, but also be considered workers of iniquity never known by Christ. I do not believe that people who are hearers and not doers are saved. I believe that conversion dictates the fruit of obedience and good works done in Christ, and that repentance should characterize our walk. Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments." The bible seems to also indicate that if we are of His Seed, we will bear fruit, if we are not we won't. The apostate is called a thorn or thistle too. sigh.

Some of my questions to hold up to the light of the Word...

Is a believer (assume believer to mean true believer) only born again once?
Is a faith lost, or a form of faith (still a question) lost, lost forever?
Can a person who has lost faith return to Christ?
Will some remain in the faith as tares, never bearing fruit, and go to eternal destruction in the end?
Will some remain in the faith as tares, never bearing fruit, and go on to eternal life?
Will some leave the faith, having born fruit, and go to eternal destruction in the end?
Will some remain in the faith, bearing fruit, and go on to destruction?
Who are the overcomers?
Are some elected, or chosen, by God?
Are some passed over by God?
Do we come to faith by decision or will?
Do we leave the faith by decsion of will?
Are those who loose faith elected?
Are those who overcome elected?
What would cause someone to decide to reject their faith?
Will some backslide, or fall into temptation, but be restored by God's chastening and the discipline of the church? Is this putting Christ to open shame? If it is, are they simply lost an unable to return?
Will some backslide because they do not know God and never have?
Will some backslide, meaning loose their faith and putting Christ to open shame, but return?
Will some backslide, loose their faith, but are not guilt of putting Christ to open shame and free to return?
Will some have true belief, living a sinful life in grace, and still have eternal life?
Will some have true belief, living a sinful life, and go on to eternal destruction?
What is rededication?
Is God the only one who knows, who is supposed to know, and a person who lives outside the realm of man's ideas and doctrines...ALL of them? Can God do what He desires in a persons life as long as He does not violate His nature? Do I know what those things are, and can they be pinned down in the Word?

I am pondering all of these questions, and many more, but the only chance I have of getting an answer for my mind is with the word, and from those who can show me in the word. It's difficult for me to be sure anymore when scripture seems to support different views...something must be flawed in the views...but instead of acknowledging the truth of the Word we seem to want to explain those verses away. I am personally being humbled in these things, and so maybe I am the one lacking somehow.

Michael, you did a good job of presenting the Word here, and showing God's faithfulness in rewarding eternal life to the born again believer.

The Lord bless you all.

 

[Solo]

Salvation by man's keeping is not, and never has been God's Salvation.

Salvation by God's keeping is true Salvation, and one who believes the Word of God is a new creature never having to fear again.

Those who have heard the Word of God and have believed in the historicity of Jesus, but have not been born of the Spirit think they are saved, but are not, never have been, nor ever will be until they are born of the Spirit.

The Word of God plainly teaches that those who are born of the Spirit are NEW CREATURES; not the same sinful creature who must keep the law, but a brand NEW CREATURE who is born of God who cannot sin. This NEW CREATURE is the inward man who delights in the God's righteousness, not mans' righteousness.

Those who are born again hear Jesus when He speaks for they know His voice.

• 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. John 10:25-30 <Emphasis mine>

 

[Solo]

And on another point, Backsliding does not remove God's Salvation from anyone!

Let us be clear, however, that a lost sinner who has NEVER been born again cannot backslide. Only sinners that are saved by Grace which is the works of Jesus Christ can backslide.

No one can be plucked from the hands of Jesus Christ for the Salvation that He died for. He died for every sin that will ever be committed for all those who believe. Only those who want to pay for their own sins will be those who are not in the Kingdom of God.

Those who backslide in the Bible and what happened to them:

• Noah got passed out drunk and lay naked in his tent after getting back on dry ground. Did he lose his salvation? NO!
  [/*:m:phcmmq1c]
• Lot took part in the fellowship with wicked Sodomites, got drunk and got his own daughters pregnant. Did he lose his salvation? NO!
  [/*:m:phcmmq1c]
• Abraham lied in his deception calling his wife Sarah his sister, and was going to allow the ruler to take her for his own. TWICE! Did he lose his salvation? NO!
  [/*:m:phcmmq1c]
• Moses killed a man, and lost his temper, going against God's Word. Did he lose his salvation? NO!
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• David had Bathsheba's husband Uriah killed and committed adultery with Bathsheba. Did he lose his salvation? NO!
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• Samson was a Nazarite filled with the Holy Spirit from birth, and kept company with harlots until God left him powerless, a slave of the Philistines with his eyes burned out. Did he lose his salvation? NO!
  [/*:m:phcmmq1c]
• Peter denied Jesus Christ three times and cursed and swore. Did he lose his salvation? NO!
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• Joseph of Arimathea, a disciple of Jesus was a secret disciple because he was a coward. Did he lose his salvation? NO!
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• The Apostle Paul went to Jerusalem against the leading of the Holy Spirit. Did he lose his salvation? NO![/*:m:phcmmq1c]

Each one of these backslid and fell into sin again. Did they lose their salvation? NO! Why not? Because their salvation was not based on their actions but the actions of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

What happens to those who backslide and sin?

All who have sin in their lives will suffer the judgments of same in this life while in this world in the flesh. Those who have been born again, are a NEW CREATURE awaiting the coming of their LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ.

Look at this person who was committing such a terrible sin, even the heathens did not perform such sins. Paul told the believers at Corinth to cast this one out of their fellowship, and to all satan to destroy his flesh, but that his spirit, the NEW CREATURE born of God, would be saved on the last day.

• 1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Corinthians 5:1-6

A Christian who backslides is like a child who disobeys his parents. It does not affect his sonship but it affects his fellowship, his joy, and the approval of the Father.

ALL Christians backslide, for all Christians sin. In I John 1:8 we are told, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Every Christian is taught to pray daily in the Lord's Prayer (that model prayer for all who can look up in the face of God and call Him, "Our Father which art in heaven"), "And forgive us our sins" (Luke 11:4). All Christians sin, and that means that all Christians backslide.

Those who believe that one must work to gain salvation instead of having faith in Christ Jesus alone for salvation are sinning with having that perspective on salvation because whatever doubted and not of faith is sin.

One question that each one of us must ask ourselves is:

Am I closer to the LORD today then I have ever been before? If the answer is no, then we are backslidden. Backsliding affects our fellowship with the LORD and our works for HIM, but it does not cause us to lose our salvation in Christ Jesus!

 

[Anna1334]

my Christian friend sent me this and i think it goes well with this topic.


QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER...

1) IS IT BETTER TO ASK GOD FOR FORGIVENESS OR TO STOP DOING WHAT YOU NEED FORGIVENESS FOR?

2) IS IT BETTER TO PRAY THAT GOD HELPS SOMEONE OR TO HELP SOMEONE YOURSELF?

3) IS IT BETTER TO BELIEVE IN GOD S MIRACLES OR TO BE GOD S MIRACLE?

4) IS IT BETTER TO TELL SOMEONE YOU LOVE THEM OR TO SHOW SOMEONE YOU LOVE THEM?

5) IS IT BETTER TO SAY THAT YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN OR TO BE A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST?

6) IS IT BETTER TO GO TO CHURCH OR TO GO FEED THE HUNGRY?

7) IS IT BETTER TO LOVE THOSE WHO LOVE YOU OR TO LOVE THOSE WHO HATE YOU?

8) IS IT BETTER TO SAY THAT YOU LOVE GOD OR TO LIVE LIKE YOU LOVE GOD?

9) IS IT BETTER TO SAY WHAT YOU BELIEVE OR TO LIVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

10) IS IT BETTER TO FOLLOW YOUR DREAMS OR TO FOLLOW YOUR SAVIOR, JESUS?

Hebrews 3: 1-6
Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. He was faithful to the One who appointed Him, just as Moses was faithful in all God s house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. Moses was faithful as a servant in all God s house, testifying to what would be said in the future. But Christ is faithful as a son over God s house. And we are His house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

 

[Solo]

What does the IF mean in the New Testament Scriptures?

• CONDITIONAL SENTENCES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
  
  (Or what does that "IF" mean?)
  
  A "conditional clause" is a statement of supposition generally introduced in English by the conjunction "if". The fulfillment of the supposition is stated as a potential fact expressed in a companion clause. Grammarians call the "if" clause the "protasis", and the fulfillment clause is called the "apodosis".
  
  "IF CLAUSE" = (Protasis - condition) (Apodosis - fulfillment)
  
  Illustration: If it rains, then the grass will grow.
  
  KOINE GREEK CONDITIONAL SENTENCES
  
  When interpreting conditional sentences in the New Testament, the student of the English Bible must realize that four classes of conditional sentences are used. In other words, the writers of the New Testament had four different ways of saying "if", each one with its distinct construction, meaning and significance.
  
  There are no equivalents to these constructions in English, but in the Koine Greek, the construction tells us what the writer means.
  
  DESCRIPTION OF THE 4 CLASSES OF IF:
  
  FIRST CLASS = REALITY - "IF" and it IS TRUE (protasis), then - - - apodosis.
  
  SECOND CLASS = UNREALITY - "IF" and it is NOT TRUE (protasis), then - - - apodosis.
  
  THIRD CLASS = POSSIBILITY - "IF" and it has not happened yet, and IT MAY (protasis), and when it does - - - apodosis.
  
  FOURTH CLASS = WISH or DESIRE - "IF" and it has not happened yet, and I WISH IT WOULD (protasis), and when, and if it does - - - apodosis.
  
  KOINE GREEK CONSTRUCTION AND EXAMPLES:
  
  FIRST CLASS - "ei" (if) + indicative mood verb = True
  
  Gal 5:18 If, and you are, to some extent, being led by the Spirit.
  
  Rom 6:5 If we have been, and we have been, planted together with Christ in death.
  
  SECOND CLASS - "ei" (if) + "un" (not) = False
  
  Gal 1:10 Paul argues, if I am pleasing men, and I am not.
  
  Luke 7:39 The Pharisee shows no faith when he says if Jesus were a prophet, and he's not.
  
  THIRD CLASS - "ean" + subjunctive mood verb = Maybe yes, maybe no.
  
  Rom 7:2 If a woman's husband is dead, maybe he is and maybe not.
  
  Heb 6:3 Leaving the foundational teachings and progressing to maturity, if God will permit, maybe He will and maybe He won't. (In the context, God won't as long as they keep on sacrificing animals instead of trusting the blood of Christ.)
  
  FOURTH CLASS - "ei" + optative mood verb = Wish or desire.
  
  1 Pet 3:14 If your suffering is for righteousness sake, and I wish it was, it would be a blessing.
  
  The New Testament uses the first two classes with great frequency, the third quite often, and the fourth very rarely.

Retrieved from http://www.biblefood.com/condsent.html

 

[Solo]

Jesus said, "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."(Matthew 5:29) So shouldn't there be a whole lot of one-eyed believers walking around today, for IF they go by the "Conditional Salvation" teaching they should pluck out their right eye so that they are not cast into hell!

Or is it okay to choose ones own verses that fit according to one's own interpretation and traditions?

 

[XTruth]

Jesus said, "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."(Matthew 5:29) So shouldn't there be a whole lot of one-eyed believers walking around today, for IF they go by the "Conditional Salvation" teaching they should pluck out their right eye so that they are not cast into hell!

Or is it okay to choose ones own verses that fit according to one's own interpretation and traditions?

Yes, we have no authority to change the literal meaning of this verse.

Jesus gives the reason why one should get rid of offending members. Would it not be more profitable to do this literally than to have all members cast into eternal hell? Jesus is simply emphasizing the terribleness of eternal hell. There is a better method than this provided in the gospel. If one will become a new creature in Christ by the new birth, this problem of sinful members will be solved (2 Cor.5:17-18; Gal.5:16-26; Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; 1 Jn.1:7; 2:29; 3:6-10; 5:1-5, 18).

The whole idea is to get rid of offending members that constantly cause sin.

Mat.18:8-9 "8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

 

[XTruth]

What does the IF mean in the New Testament Scriptures?

• CONDITIONAL SENTENCES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
  
  (Or what does that "IF" mean?)
  
  A "conditional clause" is a statement of supposition generally introduced in English by the conjunction "if". The fulfillment of the supposition is stated as a potential fact expressed in a companion clause. Grammarians call the "if" clause the "protasis", and the fulfillment clause is called the "apodosis".
  
  "IF CLAUSE" = (Protasis - condition) (Apodosis - fulfillment)
  
  Illustration: If it rains, then the grass will grow.
  
  KOINE GREEK CONDITIONAL SENTENCES
  
  When interpreting conditional sentences in the New Testament, the student of the English Bible must realize that four classes of conditional sentences are used. In other words, the writers of the New Testament had four different ways of saying "if", each one with its distinct construction, meaning and significance.
  
  There are no equivalents to these constructions in English, but in the Koine Greek, the construction tells us what the writer means.
  
  DESCRIPTION OF THE 4 CLASSES OF IF:
  
  FIRST CLASS = REALITY - "IF" and it IS TRUE (protasis), then - - - apodosis.
  
  SECOND CLASS = UNREALITY - "IF" and it is NOT TRUE (protasis), then - - - apodosis.
  
  THIRD CLASS = POSSIBILITY - "IF" and it has not happened yet, and IT MAY (protasis), and when it does - - - apodosis.
  
  FOURTH CLASS = WISH or DESIRE - "IF" and it has not happened yet, and I WISH IT WOULD (protasis), and when, and if it does - - - apodosis.
  
  KOINE GREEK CONSTRUCTION AND EXAMPLES:
  
  FIRST CLASS - "ei" (if) + indicative mood verb = True
  
  Gal 5:18 If, and you are, to some extent, being led by the Spirit.
  
  Rom 6:5 If we have been, and we have been, planted together with Christ in death.
  
  SECOND CLASS - "ei" (if) + "un" (not) = False
  
  Gal 1:10 Paul argues, if I am pleasing men, and I am not.
  
  Luke 7:39 The Pharisee shows no faith when he says if Jesus were a prophet, and he's not.
  
  THIRD CLASS - "ean" + subjunctive mood verb = Maybe yes, maybe no.
  
  Rom 7:2 If a woman's husband is dead, maybe he is and maybe not.
  
  Heb 6:3 Leaving the foundational teachings and progressing to maturity, if God will permit, maybe He will and maybe He won't. (In the context, God won't as long as they keep on sacrificing animals instead of trusting the blood of Christ.)
  
  FOURTH CLASS - "ei" + optative mood verb = Wish or desire.
  
  1 Pet 3:14 If your suffering is for righteousness sake, and I wish it was, it would be a blessing.
  
  The New Testament uses the first two classes with great frequency, the third quite often, and the fourth very rarely.

Retrieved from http://www.biblefood.com/condsent.html

Well, ya wrote something, and that will suffice for people who want to believe like you, but you haven't proven a thing. And what about Hebrew. There are still hundreds of "if's" in the Bible that this explanation ignores?

There are 1,522 “if’s in Scripture, most of them definitely expressing the conditions upon which God will bless men. Not one unconditional covenant, promise, or blessing is to be found in all the Bible. Examples of cursing for disobedience and blessing for obedience are plainly stated in Dt.27:14-26; 28:1-58; Lev.26; Isa.58 and elsewhere, so we may know w/o a doubt that God will not bless men who transgress His Word and His will. Note the “if’s,†“when’s,†and “then’s†of 1 Ki.8:31-53. Note the “if’s,†“when’s,†and “then’s†of 2 Chr.6:22-39.

Jn.8:31-34
“31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.â€Â

And again, there are 1,522 “if’s†in the Bible and all of them express a condition if one of them does. The condition to be met if these new believers were to remain as true disciples and have freedom from sin was: “continue in My Word†(vs.31-32); for if any man “committeth sin†he “is a servant of sin†(vs.34).

Take a look at these and say there is even one unconditional covenant or promise in the Word of God. (Dt.8:19; Eze.33:13, 18; Jn.8:31-36; 15:6, 10, 14; Rom.8:12-13; 11:23; 1 Cor.3:17; 15:2; Gal.6:1; Col.1:23; 1 Thes.3:8; 2 Tim.2:11-13, 21; Heb.3:6, 12-14; 6:4-9; 10:26-39; 2 Pt.1:4-10; 2:20-22; 1 Jn.1:7; etc.)

All blessings from God are contingent upon meeting certain conditions.

 

[lovely]

Michael,

Concerning backsliding, would you say that those who are truly in a backslidden state have the Law on their hearts, but are battling the flesh? You gave some good examples of people in scripture who have fallen into sins, yet were God's.

I think the problem is, who can know the backslider? We can not see hearts, and I am always concerned when I see a lack of repentance, and a lengthy stay in sin, in one's life...what if they just do not have the Law of God written on their heart at all? Why do they not fear Him? Conversion means that one is brought to their knees because they are being crushed by the weight of the sin they have been brought face to face with...they are undone knowing they are condemned to death apart from Jesus! They are desperate for Christ's ability to remove their burden of sin, to save them, and make them free and clean to go foward in Him in newnesss of life. There has been a change, a turning away from sin to Christ. I am not sure that I would say that this is a 'condition' because that seems to put the power in the hands of men instead of God, but I would say that this is the responsibility of all men to their Creator, and certainly the nature of the new man, and that when he fails the Lord he is repentant and grieved over his sin, not comfortable.

To summarize, those who have the law on their hearts, and the Spirit's witness in their spirit, may fall into sin's temptation for a time, but receive discipline from God, and the body of Christ, and come up out of it. Those who are lawless, however may have turned away from sin for a season, sort of a morality apart from truly knowing Christ, but have turned back to it in full force...having cleaned their own house the demons come back with more to inhabit. The blood of Christ was never on their doorposts, and they were never cleansed from the filth of sin.

Ephesians 2:1-10
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are created unto good works in Christ, this is who we are as His workmanship. I would rather be hard on myself, and others, about backsliding, because what if it is an occasion of one just not knowing the Lord Jesus? I don't think we can identify the 'backslider', because he could very well just be one of the lost never having a had a true conversion through the Spirit. Both should be quickly disciplined, and if they do not come under it, they should be treated as one lost. This seems to be the more compassionate and loving way. I think it is better if they have no security in their minds, because there is no evidence that they have any in this situation...they should fear and tremble at offending our Holy God, and if they don't there is likely a problem.

This is my understanding of backsliding, and I don't assume we agree or disagree just trying to define it. I would be happy to consider any scriptures about it.

I am still trying to understand the apostate.

The Lord bless you.

 

[shad]

I think the problem is, who can know the backslider? We can not see hearts, and I am always concerned when I see a lack of repentance, and a lengthy stay in sin, in one's life...

You are so right lovely. We all sin but if we are followers of Jesus sincerely, we will repent without making excuses.

 

[Solo]

Michael,

Concerning backsliding, would you say that those who are truly in a backslidden state have the Law on their hearts, but are battling the flesh? You gave some good examples of people in scripture who have fallen into sins, yet were God's.

Great post, lovely.

The point about backsliding is that every one of us backslides each time we sin, and the great thing about God's salvation that he has given to those of us who have been born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, is that it is not based on whether we sin or not. Why? Because we are sinners in this flesh.

Why do dogs bark?

Because they are dogs!

Why do people sin?

Because they are sinners!

Do dogs quit being dogs if we cut their "bark box" out?

No.

Do sinners quit being sinners because we are able now to keep the law of God every second of every day?

No.

Sinners are saved because Jesus Christ, sinless, paid the penalty of sin so that those who believe IN HIM will have everlasting life.

Those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was able to pay the price of all of their sins, and therefore, they need to live a perfect sinless life are devoid of the understanding of how great a salvation that Jesus Christ provided. Many of those are the ones who will come to Jesus telling Him how many great things that they did in His name, and Jesus will tell them, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you!" Jesus NEVER knew them because they were NEVER born again, born from above, born of God Himself.

The bottom line is that those who say they keep the commandments of Christ and that you can lose your salvation are liars for no one keeps the commandments of Christ every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every year from the time they come to know of Jesus Christ; nor do they repent of every single sin that they commit each day. If salvation is based on their beliefs and teachings, they are going to hell.


Also check this site out: http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/backslider1.html

 

[XTruth]

Michael,

Concerning backsliding, would you say that those who are truly in a backslidden state have the Law on their hearts, but are battling the flesh? You gave some good examples of people in scripture who have fallen into sins, yet were God's.

Great post, lovely.

The point about backsliding is that every one of us backslides each time we sin, and the great thing about God's salvation that he has given to those of us who have been born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, is that it is not based on whether we sin or not. Why? Because we are sinners in this flesh.

Why do dogs bark?

Because they are dogs!

Why do people sin?

Because they are sinners!

Do dogs quit being dogs if we cut their "bark box" out?

No.

Do sinners quit being sinners because we are able now to keep the law of God every second of every day?

No.

Sinners are saved because Jesus Christ, sinless, paid the penalty of sin so that those who believe IN HIM will have everlasting life.

Those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was able to pay the price of all of their sins, and therefore, they need to live a perfect sinless life are devoid of the understanding of how great a salvation that Jesus Christ provided. Many of those are the ones who will come to Jesus telling Him how many great things that they did in His name, and Jesus will tell them, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you!" Jesus NEVER knew them because they were NEVER born again, born from above, born of God Himself.

The bottom line is that those who say they keep the commandments of Christ and that you can lose your salvation are liars for no one keeps the commandments of Christ every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every year from the time they come to know of Jesus Christ; nor do they repent of every single sin that they commit each day. If salvation is based on their beliefs and teachings, they are going to hell.


Also check this site out: http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/backslider1.html

I would like to know what it takes to be "born again, born from above, born of the Spirit."

Then, I would like to know if you believe all of us who are here saying that it is only by grace, faith and repentance, not by law keeping, that we are saved; however, we must remain free from sin, the one thing that ever has and ever will condemn the soul/spirit and eventually the body of all men, or salvation from the penalty of sin will come back upon you, since ONLY PAST sins are forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9) ...are you saying that you believe we are not born again?

This is the reason for my first question, to understand your comment that 'it appears' you believe we will be the ones who God says He never knew. Though the ones He is talking to are clearly workers of iniquity...they were sinners, which you claim to still be...even though you also believe that the verses that say, "the righteous sin not," means you are not a sinner and you don't sin.

Also, concerning Mat.7:21-23 and Lk.13:24-27 (I never knew you verses), the very way God defines knowing Him is by keeping His commandments after coming to Him for forgiveness.

1 Jn.2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

You say that anyone who says they keep the commandments of Christ is a liar, yet Scripture clearly commands us to keep the commandments of Christ AND IF you don't, and say you know Him, then you are a liar. You have said, by your own admission, that you are still a sinner and do not keep the commandments of Christ. Have I misinterpreted you or Scripture in this matter?

 

[Solo]

XTruth,

I have stated in a previous post that those who believe that one can lose the Salvation that God has given them are either of the following three types of individuals:

• 1) Those who are babes in Christ and have not learned of God's eternal sealing of them through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
  
  2) Those who do not understand the teaching of Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.
  
  3) Those who think that they are saved but have not been born again.

I have not delineated where anyone fits who has posted on this thread.

As far as what it takes to be born again, born from above, born of the Spirit; is the will of God to draw each single individual to hear the Word of God by the Holy Spirit moving upon an individual who is dead and cannot see or hear spiritual things, and making him "awake or alive" to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. After being "quickened" to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, one then can believe or reject the truth, and this choice being made by each individual will determine whether one is born again or not. Those who are born again are those who make the choice to believe, repent and do the works of God, and follow Jesus by loving the Father with all of their heart, mind, and soul; and loving their neighbor as they love themselves.

Some believe the church saves them, some believe their works save them, some believe that God will save all mankind, some believe only certain denominations will be saved, etc. etc. etc.

The truth is that God will save who he wants by drawing individuals to himself, showing them the Word of God of truth, and sealing them with the Holy Spirit until they are redeemed. Mankind cannot save himself, nor can he keep his salvation, only God Almighty can do that.

If you could keep the ten commandments then Jesus Christ would not have had to die on the cross. The only commandment that one is committed to keep in order to gain eternal life is "believe"! After one believes they repent and follow Jesus. They then begin the process of sanctification whereby they "clean up" their act as the indwelling Holy Spirit teaches them how to transform their mind so that they are no longer conformed to the world. When one is born again, they are not turned into "little, sinless, Jesus'". They are not New Creatures living in a corrupt, mortal, sold under sin flesh which will be redeemed at Christ Jesus coming whether through the change in a twinkling of an eye or through being resurrected.

When one is born again they are justified through the work of Jesus Christ. They then begin living their life of sanctification by building upon the foundation of their faith in Christ Jesus, and when Christ Jesus comes they will be glorified in their sinless, incorruptible, immortal bodies.

Should born again believers continue in their sins that the flesh enjoys? NO! God Forbid!!!

If one sins, will they lose their salvation? NO! Each born again believer is dead to sin through Christ Jesus. The flesh is sinful, but Christ Jesus overcome the sin debt for each one that believes, so the penalty of death was paid for by God Himself so that the sinner that is born again will no longer suffer the wrath of God.

Where sin abounds, God's grace abounds more. No one can out sin God's Grace!!!!!


All are sinners and those who say that they are not are liars. Those who are not under the bondage of sin any longer are those who are in Christ Jesus through being born again, and no longer serve sin. A born again believer that serves sin will reap the judgment of those sins in this life to the ultimate point of destruction; not in eternity but in this physical life. Example: Samson.

 

[Good News Brown]

This whole eternal security issue is really quite simple, God does not allow sin into heaven right?
Now backsliders are sinners right? so if Jesus comes back while you are in a backslidden state, you are going to get left behind. And unless you repent of your sins you will never enter heaven. Why because God does not allow sin into heaven (Revelation 21:27). Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
So if you were saved before, but now are living a life of sin and have fallen away you have lost your salvation.
(Revelation 2:5). It is just that simple, I know it is the truth, but it seams that for anyone else to be convinced of this fact, it will take Jesus himself to do the convincing.

Actually, it's not quite that simple. For one, there are different variations on the viewpoint of conditional security. There seems to be different levels to where someone could possibly develop a color code. For instance, one may feel they are secure based on the fact that they are not aggressively sinning aside from losing their temper from time to time, over eating, etc. Another may feel secure based on the fact that they are constantly repenting on a regular basis, because they know they are constantly sinning on a regular basis one way or another. So, they have to hope they don't run into an immediate fatal situation at the same time they may have lost their temper. To jump to a further extreme, some will even say that no one knows (including themselves) whether or not they will be judged worthy of entering Heaven. One can easily sense a pick and choose format involving conditional security.

 

[francisdesales]

What is it to you if they believe they will be saved? So do you, don't you? And don't tell me it's because you're more righteous than they are. What's the difference between you and your brother? You both believe you will be saved.

Mark,

I have never questioned an individual's salvation or walk. I am addressing the teaching that "once saved always saved" twists the Bible's intent. To maintain it, one must completely avoid dozens of verses that tell us Christians can return to a life of sin, losing the whole effort of salvation in the first place ("better to have not been enlightened", Peter said).

I am teaching what the Scriptures teach. One must persevere until the end, done ONLY through Jesus Christ. Is this such a difficult thing to understand??? One must die to self, dedicate themselves to God, love others. It is WORK, by God! (literally.)

Regards

 

[XTruth]

This whole eternal security issue is really quite simple, God does not allow sin into heaven right?
Now backsliders are sinners right? so if Jesus comes back while you are in a backslidden state, you are going to get left behind. And unless you repent of your sins you will never enter heaven. Why because God does not allow sin into heaven (Revelation 21:27). Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
So if you were saved before, but now are living a life of sin and have fallen away you have lost your salvation.
(Revelation 2:5). It is just that simple, I know it is the truth, but it seams that for anyone else to be convinced of this fact, it will take Jesus himself to do the convincing.

Actually, it's not quite that simple. For one, there are different variations on the viewpoint of conditional security. There seems to be different levels to where someone could possibly develop a color code. For instance, one may feel they are secure based on the fact that they are not aggressively sinning aside from losing their temper from time to time, over eating, etc. Another may feel secure based on the fact that they are constantly repenting on a regular basis, because they know they are constantly sinning on a regular basis one way or another. So, they have to hope they don't run into an immediate fatal situation at the same time they may have lost their temper. To jump to a further extreme, some will even say that no one knows (including themselves) whether or not they will be judged worthy of entering Heaven. One can easily sense a pick and choose format involving conditional security.

There are different definitions, even 36,000 different denominations, but what's the Bible say about it? Surely all the questions man can have about salvation can be answered in God's Word. Would He leave anything concerning salvation a mystery to us?

And the fallacy that all Christians are constantly sinning everyday is not found in Scripture, yet is the common belief among most Christians. Being angry is not necessarily a sin. We can be angry about things and sin not. Over eating a sin??? I hear that often, but never have found it in Scripture. For instance, Solo, has just posted to me w/o any references, yet we are trying to reason w/ eachother over Scripture. How do I know if he (or others) are teaching truth or false human philosophies and doctrines from demons taught by seducing spirits (1 Tim.4:1)?

So lets stop making our own definitions and start putting all the pieces of the Word of God together to see the WHOLE picture. Use Scripture.

Are there any Christians out there that believe they are not sinning daily and even constantly. I hope so. We are told to follow Jesus' example by being sinless (1 Pt.2:21-22) and to walk as He walked (1 Jn.2:6). He even told us to sin no more lest a worst thing come upon us (Jn.5:14; 8:11). This is the original message and still applies...sin no more (Gen.2:17; Ex.20:20). He that says he's in the light, yet walks in darkness is a liar (1 Jn.1:6). Jesus said sin defiles a man (Mat.15:18-20). I a Christian defiles himself, God will destroy him (1 Cor.3:16-17). Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting (Gal.6:7-8). Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils (1 Cor.10:21).

 

[XTruth]

XTruth,

I have stated in a previous post that those who believe that one can lose the Salvation that God has given them are either of the following three types of individuals:

• 1) Those who are babes in Christ and have not learned of God's eternal sealing of them through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
  
  2) Those who do not understand the teaching of Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.
  
  3) Those who think that they are saved but have not been born again.

I have not delineated where anyone fits who has posted on this thread.

As far as what it takes to be born again, born from above, born of the Spirit; is the will of God to draw each single individual to hear the Word of God by the Holy Spirit moving upon an individual who is dead and cannot see or hear spiritual things, and making him "awake or alive" to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. After being "quickened" to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, one then can believe or reject the truth, and this choice being made by each individual will determine whether one is born again or not. Those who are born again are those who make the choice to believe, repent and do the works of God, and follow Jesus by loving the Father with all of their heart, mind, and soul; and loving their neighbor as they love themselves.

Some believe the church saves them, some believe their works save them, some believe that God will save all mankind, some believe only certain denominations will be saved, etc. etc. etc.

The truth is that God will save who he wants by drawing individuals to himself, showing them the Word of God of truth, and sealing them with the Holy Spirit until they are redeemed. Mankind cannot save himself, nor can he keep his salvation, only God Almighty can do that.

If you could keep the ten commandments then Jesus Christ would not have had to die on the cross. The only commandment that one is committed to keep in order to gain eternal life is "believe"! After one believes they repent and follow Jesus. They then begin the process of sanctification whereby they "clean up" their act as the indwelling Holy Spirit teaches them how to transform their mind so that they are no longer conformed to the world. When one is born again, they are not turned into "little, sinless, Jesus'". They are not New Creatures living in a corrupt, mortal, sold under sin flesh which will be redeemed at Christ Jesus coming whether through the change in a twinkling of an eye or through being resurrected.

When one is born again they are justified through the work of Jesus Christ. They then begin living their life of sanctification by building upon the foundation of their faith in Christ Jesus, and when Christ Jesus comes they will be glorified in their sinless, incorruptible, immortal bodies.

Should born again believers continue in their sins that the flesh enjoys? NO! God Forbid!!!

If one sins, will they lose their salvation? NO! Each born again believer is dead to sin through Christ Jesus. The flesh is sinful, but Christ Jesus overcome the sin debt for each one that believes, so the penalty of death was paid for by God Himself so that the sinner that is born again will no longer suffer the wrath of God.

Where sin abounds, God's grace abounds more. No one can out sin God's Grace!!!!!


All are sinners and those who say that they are not are liars. Those who are not under the bondage of sin any longer are those who are in Christ Jesus through being born again, and no longer serve sin. A born again believer that serves sin will reap the judgment of those sins in this life to the ultimate point of destruction; not in eternity but in this physical life. Example: Samson.

There are tooo many things biblically wrong with this new post. Applying Scripture references would be ideal when discussing Scripture beliefs. I see so much human philosophy my head hurts. Just answer the questions at the bottom in a clear way. I know some say this and some say that, but what say you? The last post I gave to you showed your own words which very clearly contradict thie following passage...mind you, I only used one passage so there would be no dodging of the questions, but you did anyway and again.

1 Jn.2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

You say that anyone who says they keep the commandments of Christ is a liar, yet Scripture clearly commands us to keep the commandments of Christ AND IF you don't, and say you know Him, then you are a liar. You have said, by your own admission, that you are still a sinner and do not keep the commandments of Christ. Are we to keep His commandments or did Jesus just like hearing His own voice?? By the way...one of the main stumbling blocks in front of you is thinking that the 10 commandments are what we are to keep when Jesus says to keep His commandments (Jn.14:15-23; 15:14). The 10 commandments have been abolished and Jesus re-established most, but not all...a different thread perhaps.

 

[Solo]

XTruth,

I have stated in a previous post that those who believe that one can lose the Salvation that God has given them are either of the following three types of individuals:

• 1) Those who are babes in Christ and have not learned of God's eternal sealing of them through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
  
  2) Those who do not understand the teaching of Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.
  
  3) Those who think that they are saved but have not been born again.

I have not delineated where anyone fits who has posted on this thread.

As far as what it takes to be born again, born from above, born of the Spirit; is the will of God to draw each single individual to hear the Word of God by the Holy Spirit moving upon an individual who is dead and cannot see or hear spiritual things, and making him "awake or alive" to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. After being "quickened" to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, one then can believe or reject the truth, and this choice being made by each individual will determine whether one is born again or not. Those who are born again are those who make the choice to believe, repent and do the works of God, and follow Jesus by loving the Father with all of their heart, mind, and soul; and loving their neighbor as they love themselves.

Some believe the church saves them, some believe their works save them, some believe that God will save all mankind, some believe only certain denominations will be saved, etc. etc. etc.

The truth is that God will save who he wants by drawing individuals to himself, showing them the Word of God of truth, and sealing them with the Holy Spirit until they are redeemed. Mankind cannot save himself, nor can he keep his salvation, only God Almighty can do that.

If you could keep the ten commandments then Jesus Christ would not have had to die on the cross. The only commandment that one is committed to keep in order to gain eternal life is "believe"! After one believes they repent and follow Jesus. They then begin the process of sanctification whereby they "clean up" their act as the indwelling Holy Spirit teaches them how to transform their mind so that they are no longer conformed to the world. When one is born again, they are not turned into "little, sinless, Jesus'". They are not New Creatures living in a corrupt, mortal, sold under sin flesh which will be redeemed at Christ Jesus coming whether through the change in a twinkling of an eye or through being resurrected.

When one is born again they are justified through the work of Jesus Christ. They then begin living their life of sanctification by building upon the foundation of their faith in Christ Jesus, and when Christ Jesus comes they will be glorified in their sinless, incorruptible, immortal bodies.

Should born again believers continue in their sins that the flesh enjoys? NO! God Forbid!!!

If one sins, will they lose their salvation? NO! Each born again believer is dead to sin through Christ Jesus. The flesh is sinful, but Christ Jesus overcome the sin debt for each one that believes, so the penalty of death was paid for by God Himself so that the sinner that is born again will no longer suffer the wrath of God.

Where sin abounds, God's grace abounds more. No one can out sin God's Grace!!!!!


All are sinners and those who say that they are not are liars. Those who are not under the bondage of sin any longer are those who are in Christ Jesus through being born again, and no longer serve sin. A born again believer that serves sin will reap the judgment of those sins in this life to the ultimate point of destruction; not in eternity but in this physical life. Example: Samson.

There are tooo many things biblically wrong with this new post. Applying Scripture references would be ideal when discussing Scripture beliefs. I see so much human philosophy my head hurts. Just answer the questions at the bottom in a clear way. I know some say this and some say that, but what say you? The last post I gave to you showed your own words which very clearly contradict thie following passage...mind you, I only used one passage so there would be no dodging of the questions, but you did anyway and again.

1 Jn.2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

You say that anyone who says they keep the commandments of Christ is a liar, yet Scripture clearly commands us to keep the commandments of Christ AND IF you don't, and say you know Him, then you are a liar. You have said, by your own admission, that you are still a sinner and do not keep the commandments of Christ. Are we to keep His commandments or did Jesus just like hearing His own voice?? By the way...one of the main stumbling blocks in front of you is thinking that the 10 commandments are what we are to keep when Jesus says to keep His commandments (Jn.14:15-23; 15:14). The 10 commandments have been abolished and Jesus re-established most, but not all...a different thread perhaps.

XTruth,
I explained in an earlier post that the English language has the one word "IF" to express four different meaning of the Greek words. These four meanings of the Greek rendition of the English Scripture text "IF" are called; First Class, Second Class, Third Class, and Fourth Class. The meaning of these four classes are not the same translation of the conditional "IF," "Then" statements in the English language. There are no equivalents to these constructions in English, but in the Koine Greek, the construction tells us what the writer means.

If you really want to learn what the Word of God says, then do so willingly accepting the possibility of ridding yourself of false perceptions pertaining to the Word of God. I used to believe that one could lose their salvation also, until God taught me that it was not my Salvation, it was His Salvation given to me. Also He showed me where each and every sin that I had committed, that I was committing, and that I would commit was paid for at the cross of Jesus Christ.

I gain not one single solitary thing for teaching the truth concerning God's Salvation and the justification of mankind through Jesus Christ, sealed by Himself, the Holy Spirit.

Now concerning the commandments that a born again believer should follow is what? What commandments is a believer to follow? Read my post again, and you will see that I stated that the commandments that we are told to follow are believe on the name of Jesus Christ and we will be born again. After that God the Spirit will teach us all things to mold us into the image of Christ. In that we will be taught to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, with all of our strength; and we will be taught to love our neighbor as ourselves. Jesus said that all of the commandments, the ten commandments, hinge on these two. Are we not to keep the sabbath day holy? Yes. We are to keep the Sabbath day holy and the other six day holy as well. Are we to rest from our work one day a week? Yes. We are also to rest from our work the other six days a week as well. Are we not to murder? Yes we are not to murder. We are also not to hate our brother for it is equal to murder. The ten commandments were not abolished; they were fulfilled so that when one is born again, they can be written on the heart, not on stone.

What commandments do you believe Jesus commanded that you keep, otherwise you will go to hell?

 

[Good News Brown]

This whole eternal security issue is really quite simple, God does not allow sin into heaven right?
Now backsliders are sinners right? so if Jesus comes back while you are in a backslidden state, you are going to get left behind. And unless you repent of your sins you will never enter heaven. Why because God does not allow sin into heaven (Revelation 21:27). Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
So if you were saved before, but now are living a life of sin and have fallen away you have lost your salvation.
(Revelation 2:5). It is just that simple, I know it is the truth, but it seams that for anyone else to be convinced of this fact, it will take Jesus himself to do the convincing.

Actually, it's not quite that simple. For one, there are different variations on the viewpoint of conditional security. There seems to be different levels to where someone could possibly develop a color code. For instance, one may feel they are secure based on the fact that they are not aggressively sinning aside from losing their temper from time to time, over eating, etc. Another may feel secure based on the fact that they are constantly repenting on a regular basis, because they know they are constantly sinning on a regular basis one way or another. So, they have to hope they don't run into an immediate fatal situation at the same time they may have lost their temper. To jump to a further extreme, some will even say that no one knows (including themselves) whether or not they will be judged worthy of entering Heaven. One can easily sense a pick and choose format involving conditional security.

There are different definitions, even 36,000 different denominations, but what's the Bible say about it? Surely all the questions man can have about salvation can be answered in God's Word. Would He leave anything concerning salvation a mystery to us?

And the fallacy that all Christians are constantly sinning everyday is not found in Scripture, yet is the common belief among most Christians. Being angry is not necessarily a sin. We can be angry about things and sin not. Over eating a sin??? I hear that often, but never have found it in Scripture. For instance, Solo, has just posted to me w/o any references, yet we are trying to reason w/ eachother over Scripture. How do I know if he (or others) are teaching truth or false human philosophies and doctrines from demons taught by seducing spirits (1 Tim.4:1)?

My references to anger and overeating are not so much to pinpoint what is sin, and what isn't. They were more examples of how some sins are overlooked. Naturally, there is a type of anger that is good or right which doesn't lead to hate, etc. However, as far as overeating, there is a sin of gluttony Proverbs 23:20-21. Where the line is drawn on that, as well as with alcohol consumption, I don't know. However, as far as sinning every day, let's look at Hebrews 12:6 "For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth", and scourgeth every son He receiveth".
While this may not necessarily indicate a 24/7 constant sinning, this does indicate an ongoing correction. Why would we need constant chastening and scourging? Did Jesus need chastening? Scourging? If a believer has a tidbit of pride, it's a sin worthy of damnation. Whether the person is aware of it or not.

When looking at:

Revelations 2:1-5 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things sayeth He that holdeth the seven stars in His right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: and hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast labored, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love".

Revelations 2:18-20 "And unto the angel of the church in Thy-a-ti'ra write; These things sayeth the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, which callest herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols".

In both these cases, were these believers at all aware of their sin? Or did they merely feel it was not significant enough to make an immediate change? Either way, I doubt that they were blatantly sinning in the context of one who willfully or knowingly is in direct violation. Even in the case of the Laodicians, I would dare to say that they were not blatantly acting out on a sin which in that case was lukewarmness. Interestingly enough, the one rebuke among the seven churches that seems to get identified the most with losing salvation is the Laodiceans. Even though after the rebuke, Jesus clearly stated (as always) that those He loves he chastens.

How many of the churches that received rebuke were in danger of losing their salvation? All of them? Just the Laodiceans? How about if each one of us were to receive a personal revelation letter in similar fashion. Could anyone here say for sure that although there are perhaps some good points worth mentioning, there wouldn't be any rebuke? And if there was rebuke, there must be sin involved. If one who holds to a conditional security viewpoint, and is not sure that they would be without rebuke, they should conclude that if they died tonight prior to a revelation of correction, they would die in their sin(s). Keep in mind, in the two churches I identified, they had some very strong good points. Even still, in both cases, Jesus had something against them. Were they not in sin? This is why I feel some tend to set their own boundaries on what is sin, or what is walking in darkness. And thus, why we would need to rely solely on the saving grace of Jesus Christ, minus the notion that we can contribute to our salvation in any form or fashion.

 

[lovely]

1 John 5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Our love for the brotherhood, because they are Christ's, shows we are born of God, and we know we love the children of God when we love God and follow Him. It is sort of an unbroken circle. Those born of God, overcome the world, we have victory in faith. The one who believes on Jesus, of which we just read how they can be identified, are those who overcome.

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If we are believers, it's because we have the witness of God in us through the Holy Spirit, those who don't believe, have not that record and they make God a liar. What's that witness? God has given us eternal life in the Son, if we have the Son we have eternal life, if we do not have Him as defined by the lack of the witness of the Holy Spirit, we do not have eternal life. John's whole reason for writing was to cause people to believe, and to make it known that we have eternal life if you believe on the Son.

14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We are to intercede for our brothers when they fall into sin, and Good News Covered the idea that God will chasten them if they know Him. These people are identified as out brothers, and John spends the whole book telling us to have love for them...now we are called to intercede for them. There is a sin unto death that we should not pray for...unrighteousness, this presumptuous sin that denies the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and leads to striving for righteousness apart from Christ, and from the work of the Holy Spirit in us that is teaching, leading, and conforming us to Christ's image as we behold the grory of God.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

If we are born of God we do not sin, not because we are perfect, but because we do not sin willfully as the Spirit changes us we continue to conform. We do not sin because Jesus keeps us, His righteousness through the blood, and satan can no longer claim us even with our sins. We do not lie in wickedness like the world any longer, because we know Jesus has come, and He has given us the ability to know Him, and to know the Father, because we are in His Son. John says this is the true God. I do not think that John's words are mocking sin here, but he is explaining in this whole book that the righteousness in us, that causes the change and to desire to stop sinning completely, is the Righteous One in us, not our efforts. He identifies the sin of blaspheme, of walking in our own presumptuous righteousness, as the sin we should not pray for...the one that leads to death.

Good News Brown, I overlapped some of what you were saying, but I was reading this chapter this morning and wanted to share it here even though I saw you already posted.