Eternal security or conditional security?

[JLB]

Gills exposition of the entire bible puts it this way....

There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state.

Jesus says it this way - I am the vine, you are the branches.

Branches that are "in Him" are saved.
Branches that are not "in Him", are not saved.


If you can find a scripture that teaches us that people who are not "in Christ" are saved, then please share it and we will discuss it.

If you can find a scripture that teaches us that unsaved people are "in Christ" then please share it and we will discuss it.



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

If I built a house and you were to appraise my work, you would not come to me, you would go to that which I built and test/appraise it. And that is exactly what Paul is saying. God will judge the quality of his craftsmanship in the building of God. Everything that doesn't pass the test of fire will be burned away, and if that happens, Paul will have no reward for work that isn't there anymore because it got burned up. So Paul says, 'be careful how you build'.

With all due respect...I find that to be very unbiblical. Please, please correct me if I'm wrong...but you're telling me people's salvation is based upon how well a job Paul did? If Paul doesn't instruct them properly ...they'll fail this test of yours and be burned up?

You said "Paul says, 'be careful how you build".....so, if I do a bad job at presenting the gospel to someone...not being careful in how I build...that person may end up in the fire? Even though I'm saved....my failure to convert them causes them to end up in hell? Where's the Holy Spirit?

 

[Cygnus]

Jesus says it this way - I am the vine, you are the branches.

Branches that are "in Him" are saved.
Branches that are not "in Him", are not saved.


If you can find a scripture that teaches us that people who are not "in Christ" are saved, then please share it and we will discuss it.

If you can find a scripture that teaches us that unsaved people are "in Christ" then please share it and we will discuss it.



JLB

Did you NOT read my reply?

I don't think "in me" is being used correctly by you in this instance. I tried to point that out to you in my earlier reply.
Romans 8:1 tells us....."There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
If there is no condemnation of those who are in Christ Jesus......how can you be condemned and chucked into the fire?

 

[JLB]

With all due respect...I find that to be very unbiblical. Please, please correct me if I'm wrong...but you're telling me people's salvation is based upon how well a job Paul did? If Paul doesn't instruct them properly ...they'll fail this test of yours and be burned up?

You said "Paul says, 'be careful how you build".....so, if I do a bad job at presenting the gospel to someone...not being careful in how I build...that person may end up in the fire? Even though I'm saved....my failure to convert them causes them to end up in hell? Where's the Holy Spirit?

Building a house is a process.

A person can be taught to believe in Christ for salvation, thus the foundation is laid.

Then another can continue building the house [the person who was saved], but with false doctrine, so the rest of the house is nothing as the Lord intended. The people who were saved by believing in the Lord, if they came under persecution and turned away from Christ, rather than be persecuted, that person who was saved, but taught incorrectly [built with hay and stubble] fell away.

These who at one time early on in their life were in Christ, but due to false teaching, then departed from Christ, thus they did not abide [remain] in Him.


James, the Lord's brother said it this way -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Christians who wander from the truth, have returned to being sinners, and are in danger of death, and therefore need saving from death.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Did you NOT read my reply?

I don't think "in me" is being used correctly by you in this instance. I tried to point that out to you in my earlier reply.
Romans 8:1 tells us....."There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
If there is no condemnation of those who are in Christ Jesus......how can you be condemned and chucked into the fire?

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Building a house is a process.

A person can be taught to believe in Christ for salvation, thus the foundation is laid.

Then another can continue building the house [the person who was saved], but with false doctrine, so the rest of the house is nothing as the Lord intended. The people who were saved by believing in the Lord, if they came under persecution and turned away from Christ, rather than be persecuted, that person who was saved, but taught incorrectly [built with hay and stubble] fell away.

These who at one time early on in their life were in Christ, but due to false teaching, then departed from Christ, thus they did not abide [remain] in Him.


James, the Lord's brother said it this way -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Christians who wander from the truth, have returned to being sinners, and are in danger of death, and therefore need saving from death.



JLB

You said "These who at one time early on in their life were in Christ, but due to false teaching, then departed from Christ, thus they did not abide [remain] in Him."

What you are saying is that people with false teachings have the ability to snatch you out of Christ hand? Despite what John 10:28 says?
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand

John 6:39 informs us....And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

[edited]

Theology that squarely contradicts scripture must be thrown away.

 

[JLB]

What you are saying is that people with false teachings have the ability to snatch you out of Christ hand? Despite what John 10:28 says?
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand

What I am saying is people who are false teachers, can convince you through through false teaching, to depart from Christ, while thinking you are still saved, though you no longer believe.

You can depart from Him of your own free will.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13



JLB

Some manuscripts add who walk not according to the flesh (but according to the Spirit)
Check it out..

 

[JLB]

Some manuscripts add who walk not according to the flesh (but according to the Spirit)
Check it out..

That's why I listed the context of the rest of the scriptures that continue Paul's thought from verse 1.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

What I am saying is people who are false teachers, can convince you through through false teaching, to depart from Christ, while thinking you are still saved, though you no longer believe.

You can depart from Him of your own free will.


JLB

Sure, we can walk away from Christ....but it doesn't mean you lose your salvation.

What you are telling me is that a person can be deceived...and using their free-will...walk away and lose their salvation? Deception can snatch away your salvation? I think not. Jesus will lose none that the father has given Jesus. Deception is not stronger than grace.

 

[Cygnus]

In this verse, who took them away from the Vine?

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:1-2

Your interpretation of "in Me" is wrong.
I've already cover that in a previous post.

 

[JLB]

Your interpretation of "in Me" is wrong.
I've already cover that in a previous post.

If "in Me" doesn't refer to Christ, then who is "Me" referring to?

 

[JLB]

Sure, we can walk away from Christ....but it doesn't mean you lose your salvation.

That statement is the perfect example of being deceived into "thinking" you can depart from Christ, and not lose your salvation, through unbiblical doctrines.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14

Salvation means you have Christ, the Son of God.

If you do not have Christ, then you do not have eternal life.

He who has [partakes of] the Son has life; he who does not have [partakes of] the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

That statement is the perfect example of being deceived into "thinking" you can depart from Christ, and not lose your salvation, through unbiblical doctrines.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14

Salvation means you have Christ, the Son of God.

If you do not have Christ, then you do not have eternal life.

He who has [partakes of] the Son has life; he who does not have [partakes of] the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12


JLB

If that verse talked about salvation...you might have a point. BUT, salvation isn't even mentioned in that verse.

Secondly turning away from God..isn't losing one's salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

If "in Me" doesn't refer to Christ, then who is "Me" referring to?

Christ is talking...so it refers to Him. That's not the point of the discussion.
The question is..what does "in Me" mean?
In my earlier post I showed you how it could be viewed differently...Every branch not bearing fruit in Me,...in other words, if you are a branch not bearing fruit in Christ...you get cut off. Big, big, difference than a branch already in Christ not bearing fruit.

 

[chessman]

even in non-OSAS the person is saved at the moment of belief and surely does receive everything salvation is now in this life,...
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB

Right. Which includes Eternal Life (and as the OP points out as an irrevocable gift) not a chance at Eternal Life if you mature enough in your Earthly life and bear enough fruit in accordance with your maturity level.

I know you have argued in another post that Eternal Life doesn't really mean eternal in the sense it plainly seems to mean to me.
But if 1 Cor 15:1-2 is so plain as to negate the eternal nature of the life found within eternal life, then why does Paul say their belief served NO purpose?

1 Corinthians 15:2 (LEB) by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.

On your view, Paul should have said believed to a temporary purpose or fleeting purpose or conditional purpose or revocable purpose or "everything salvation is now" purpose (which is surely not no purpose). But he doesn't say that, he says no purpose or "vain". This is fact #1 that excludes your interpretation of this passage as being valid.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1500.htm
Definition: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB, for example, plainly says that you are saved if you keep--that is hold fast--the word of God. That makes that a condition for saved people to be saved,...

Actually Paul says they must hold fast--the word I preached to you... and then lists the items of "first importance" he previously preached to them.

What's a condition then, according to this context, for receiving salvation, (whether you think it's temporary (anti-OSAS) or eternal (OSAS), either way) includes the first importance items of 1) believing in Jesus' resurrection and 2) His one sacrifice for your sins.

Therfore, A person in Corinth that holds to a firm belief in a salvific need to continue sacrificing animals (anti-2) or anti-resurrection beliefs (anti-1) or a need to meet a fruit quota (anti-2), that person had a vain belief in Paul's gospel message to begin with. Which is why the past tense verb is used; "believed in vain". This is fact #2 about this passage which precludes your interpretation of it. It should say;

by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you develope a vain belief later in life​

to be in accord with your interpretation of it.

The plain, spelled out words in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB are the more compelling evidence that overrules the vague, not spelled out words of Romans 11:29 NASB.

Romans 11:29 (NASB) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

What is vague within this verse?
What the gifts are?
What the calling of God is?
Or what irrevocable means?

I don't see any ambiguity in this verse.
Or in 1 Cor 15:1-2. Although the clarity within 1 Cor 15:1-2 differs from your interpretation of Paul's statement there.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

please correct me if I'm wrong...but you're telling me people's salvation is based upon how well a job Paul did?

Yes, but only in regard to if Paul is successful and can get credit for it. If not, perhaps someone after him will do it effectively and successfully and, therefore, get the credit for it. But the opposite may also happen. Someone can come along and build the church up into that which can not withstand the coming Judgement of fire.

You said "Paul says, 'be careful how you build".....so, if I do a bad job at presenting the gospel to someone...not being careful in how I build...that person may end up in the fire? Even though I'm saved....my failure to convert them causes them to end up in hell? Where's the Holy Spirit?

Where's the Holy Spirit? In someone else's message. One that is correct and accurately articulated.

Actually, in the passage, Paul has already laid the foundation of the gospel message of Christ at Corinth. The issue is whether or not subsequent teachers are going to build the church at Corinth up into that which can withstand the coming Judgment with a gospel that can do that, or if they use a gospel that can not do that and will result in them being burned up, not saved, at the Judgment. A false gospel was circulating among the Corinthians that said Christ and the dead are not resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB). Those who were preaching such a gospel were building the household, the building of God, up into that which will not withstand the coming Judgment, for Paul said such a gospel, which he did not preach to them, can not save. It leaves you dead in your sin (1 Corinthians 15:17-18 NASB). He said they were saved "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB). But OSAS says the opposite and says they are saved even if they DON'T hold fast the gospel Paul first preached to them.

 

[chessman]

I asked: Do you feel it is necessary for every believer (every branch) to bear fruit in order to be saved?
You answered:

It's depends on the age of the person in Christ.

I see. And I see how a view like that would lead a person to believe in loss of salvation based on the person's maturation in Christ versus the fruit they bear. Good thing it's not true.

Is there a Scripture that describes the amount of fruit a saved person must produce as they mature. Is it one fruit per year? Go through one year without bearing any fruit and the vinedresser comes by and cuts your salvation off?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But if 1 Cor 15:1-2 is so plain as to negate the eternal nature of the life found within eternal life...

It negates OSAS understanding of it. Not what actually is eternal about it. I know it's going to be hard for the church to see what I'm saying. The erroneous indoctrination about it is runs very deep and powerful.

...then why does Paul say their belief served NO purpose?

1 Corinthians 15:2 (LEB) by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.

On your view, Paul should have said believed to a temporary purpose or fleeting purpose or conditional purpose or revocable purpose or "everything salvation is now" purpose (which is surely not no purpose). But he doesn't say that, he says no purpose or "vain". This is fact #1 that excludes your interpretation of this passage as being valid.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1500.htm
Definition: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing

As I've explained, Paul goes on to explain to these saved Corinthians that if they adopt a different gospel than the one they received from him, one that says their is no resurrection of the dead, they are lost. He plainly and openly says "you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you". But OSAS says they are still saved even if they don't hold fast the word Paul preached to them (the gospel that included the resurrection of Christ--1 Corinthians 15:4 NASB).

Romans 11:29 (NASB) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
What is vague within this verse?
What the gifts are?
What the calling of God is?
Or what irrevocable means?

OSAS has been arguing desperately that the verse means to include the gift of eternal life, but the verse doesn't say that--it has to be argued that's what it means. But 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 does not need to be shown to say something it doesn't already come right out and say. For it plainly and openly says what it says, and which directly contradicts OSAS's added interpretation of Romans 11:29 NASB that insists Paul was including the free gift of salvation when he penned it.

 

[JLB]

I asked: Do you feel it is necessary for every believer (every branch) to bear fruit in order to be saved?
You answered:

I see. And I see how a view like that would lead a person to believe in loss of salvation based on the person's maturation in Christ versus the fruit they bear. Good thing it's not true.

Is there a Scripture that describes the amount of fruit a saved person must produce as they mature. Is it one fruit per year? Go through one year without bearing any fruit and the vinedresser comes by and cuts your salvation off?

Now you have come to making up scenarios, and then trying to apply your scenarios to what Jesus plainly said, as if your scenarios will change His words.


To whom much is given much is expected.

Do we expect a new born infant to do anything?
What do we expect from a one year old?

The Master expects us to abide in Him. If we abide, remain connected in relationship, then He says we will produce fruit.

He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;

The focus is on abiding in Him.



JLB