Eternal security or conditional security?

[Cygnus]

Yes, but only in regard to if Paul is successful and can get credit for it. If not, perhaps someone after him will do it effectively and successfully and, therefore, get the credit for it. But the opposite may also happen. Someone can come along and build the church up into that which can not withstand the coming Judgement of fire.


Where's the Holy Spirit? In someone else's message. One that is correct and accurately articulated.

Actually, in the passage, Paul has already laid the foundation of the gospel message of Christ at Corinth. The issue is whether or not subsequent teachers are going to build the church at Corinth up into that which can withstand the coming Judgment with a gospel that can do that, or if they use a gospel that can not do that and will result in them being burned up, not saved, at the Judgment. A false gospel was circulating among the Corinthians that said Christ and the dead are not resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB). Those who were preaching such a gospel were building the household, the building of God, up into that which will not withstand the coming Judgment, for Paul said such a gospel, which he did not preach to them, can not save. It leaves you dead in your sin (1 Corinthians 15:17-18 NASB). He said they were saved "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB). But OSAS says the opposite and says they are saved even if they DON'T hold fast the gospel Paul first preached to them.

If you want to go down this path....drifting off topic...we can talk. But I don't see it relating to 1st Cor 3.

You ended with..."But OSAS says the opposite and says they are saved even if they DON'T hold fast the gospel Paul first preached to them"
OSAS says...they probably never held on to Pauls gospel from the get go.
OSAS says, if they were true believers...then dropped Pauls gospel (for whatever reason) they are still saved.

Your theology then goes on to saying if you lose your salvation..you can't regain it. As for me, I'll stick with the truth. OSAS

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is there a Scripture that describes the amount of fruit a saved person must produce as they mature.

You don't have to, but are you reading all my posts? I have addressed this in this thread.

 

[JLB]

The question is..what does "in Me" mean?

It means In Christ.

Joined to Christ, as a branch is joined to the Vine.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17



JLB

 

[JLB]

Great question.

Fot the use it or lose it crowd.....no one believing in OSAS...believes we should not produce fruit.

Do you believe the Lord says we are to abide in Him, or we could wither and die?


JLB

 

[chessman]

You don't have to, but are you reading all my posts? I have addressed this in this thread.

Yes, except for the last few today or into last night. Hard to keep current.

Frankly, I agree with much of what you say and you make good points IMO often (but not always). I just respond to very specific points to which i disagree with you. Who knows, you might be right and I'm wrong. I'm okay with learning something new about Scripture. One could say it's fruitful for me to do so.

That particular question was for JLB, but if you know where Scripture(s) tells me how much fruit I (a 30 year+) branch needs to produce each year in order to not lose salvation, then please point it out. Or the previous post where you did.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes it does. But just because one possesses the life that never ends doesn't mean they can not lose the life that never ends.

The only relevant question is this: where is the verse that clearly teaches that one's eternal life can be taken away?

We know that the Bible does not teach this because of the verses that tell us that eternal life is a gift of God, and that God's gifts are irrevocable. So God does NOT take the gift away. That leaves only 1 possibility; that the believer can somehow rid himself of eternal life. What verse teaches this? I submit that there are no verses that teach it.

Eternal life will still be eternal life and will exist forever and ever even if some lose the privilege to continue to possess it because of a denial of Christ.

One must prove from Scripture that the life (eternal) that God gives to the believer can be separated from the believer, and since God's gifts are irrevocable, we know that He Himself will not revoke the gift. So again, we are left with the only possibility; that the believer himself can somehow rid himself of God's gift.

But that is impossible because of what Jesus said in John 10:28; that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

That is not what is in contention. OSAS seems to be incapable of understanding that even in non-OSAS the person is saved at the moment of belief and surely does receive everything salvation is now in this life, and the promise of what it is in the life to come. The point of contention is that the life itself is what is eternal and never-ending, but your possession of it won't be eternal until you enter into the fullness of it at the resurrection:

I certainly agree that what is in contention is that those who have been given eternal life can lose it.

No one has yet shown any verse that teaches such a thing.

[/QUOTE]29Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30 NASB bold mine)

This scripture says so: 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB

Why is OSAS so blind to the plain truth of that passage?[/QUOTE]
My question is why is LOS "so blind to the plain truth" of the 5 points of the OP? No one has yet provided any explanation of what those verses do teach, if not OSAS.

It's because i

ndoctrinations are very, very powerful things. They have the power to make people not seen plain truth right under their noses. Even when you explain it to them.

So true.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB, for example, plainly says that you are saved if you keep--that is hold fast--the word of God.

OK, what verse teaches plainly and clearly that one can rid themselves of God's gift of eternal life. That is the problem with LOS.

That makes that a condition for saved people to be saved, which instantly rules out the possibility that Paul was saying salvation is among the irrevocable gifts referred to in Romans 11:29 NASB.

Speculation and assumption. No verse supports this.

The plain, spelled out words in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB are the more compelling evidence that overrules the vague, not spelled out words of Romans 11:29 NASB. But OSAS chooses to establish it's doctrine on the vague, less compelling scripture of Romans 11:29 NASB and totally ignore the plain, straightforward words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. That's unreasonable, if not dishonest. And especially dangerous when done with something so profoundly important as the matter of salvation.

Those who want to refute OSAS must address the 5 points of the OP and explain what they do teach. Simply quoting more verses does not refute or trump any other verse.

But what OSAS ignores is that the promise is for those who hold fast the word of God, not for those who cast it away in a denial of Christ.

But you haven't shown from Scripture that anyone is capable of "casting away' their eternal life.

If OSAS is sure that is not true, then it needs to prove 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB does not say that.

I've already provided an explanation of why it does not say what you claim it does.

Now, one must show what the verses in the OP do teach, if not OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is where it speaks of 'having no fruit results in being tossed into the lake of fire':

If the verses you quote (Matt 25:31-46) teach what you claim, then the Bible is contradicted. Because your view removes Christ as Savior and places production of fruit as our savior. iow, we are saved by producing fruit. This is plainly a works based salvation, and the Bible refutes that in Eph 2;8-10, which I've previously explained. One will have to explain how my explanation is in error to refute my claim.

These fruitless people (lacking the fruit of the Spirit, love, compassion, etc.) will be condemned on the basis of their works, not on the basis of if they simply have eternal life.

Well, I certainly and strongly disagree with your claim that one is saved by their works, since Paul very clearly refuted that claim in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8-10.

That doesn't mean salvation is by works. It means works will be used to measure whether or not you have the faith that justifies.

Again, I strongly disagree with your explanation. It does, regardless of your denial, mean salvation is by works.

For even Paul said the faith that justifies is the faith that loves (works):

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (towards justification--see context), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

Which does NOT say that God uses production of fruit to measure whether one has the faith that justifies.

The fact of having faith in Christ justifies a person, per Rom 3:20-ch 4.

 

[FreeGrace]

What I am saying is people who are false teachers, can convince you through through false teaching, to depart from Christ, while thinking you are still saved, though you no longer believe.

You can depart from Him of your own free will.
JLB

Like the prodigal, he left his father, but was still a son. Relationship is permanent but fellowship is on and off.

 

[FreeGrace]

It means In Christ.

Joined to Christ, as a branch is joined to the Vine.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17
JLB

Paul taught that the Holy Spirit is the One who puts us "in Christ" per Eph 1:13,14. And there are no verses that teach that the believer can remove himself from Christ. To "abide in Christ" therefore is about fellowship, not severing a relationship, just as the prodigal son was ALWAYS a son. That never changed.

 

[Cygnus]

Do you believe the Lord says we are to abide in Him, or we could wither and die?


JLB

Absolutely....I could stop abiding in Christ....turn to drugs and alcohol...abandon my christian lifestyle....and I would wither and die.
It would be stupid to do....rather foolish....but I would still be saved.

 

[th1b.taylor]

So the fire that Jesus mentioned in John 15 is hell or the lake of fire?


JLB

They are not the same, as I began with, partner. The Lake of Fire, the Abyss, is the final resting place and Hell is the, to this day, remaining half of the Temporary Resting Place of the dead. It is the opposite of Abraham's Buxom/Paradise found in Luke 16:22.

 

[th1b.taylor]

bill, i understand that you prefer life in the Paradise

No, again you make a common error but an error none the less. Paradise was emptied out when Jesus died on the cross, Matt. 27 about verse 51 or 52.

 

[Cygnus]

No, again you make a common error but an error none the less. Paradise was emptied out when Jesus died on the cross, Matt. 27 about verse 51 or 52.

Just thinking out loud.....Does Bosom of Abraham = paradise?
Jesus died on the cross before the thief died. Jesus said He would be with him in paradise tonight.

 

[JLB]

They are not the same, as I began with, partner. The Lake of Fire, the Abyss, is the final resting place and Hell is the, to this day, remaining half of the Temporary Resting Place of the dead. It is the opposite of Abraham's Buxom/Paradise found in Luke 16:22.

Are you saying the fire that Jesus refers to in John 15, is not hell or the lake of fire, or is hell or the lake of fire?

 

[JLB]

Absolutely....I could stop abiding in Christ....turn to drugs and alcohol...abandon my christian lifestyle....and I would wither and die.
It would be stupid to do....rather foolish....but I would still be saved.

Jesus associates to wither and die with being gathered up and thrown into the fire.

... is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


How do you see a person being cast into the fire and burned, as being saved?

Please share the scripture that people who are cast into the fire, are saved, though they are burning in fire.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Are you saying the fire that Jesus refers to in John 15, is not hell or the lake of fire, or is hell or the lake of fire?

"cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Why not this fire?
13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Cygnus]

Jesus associates to wither and die with being gathered up and thrown into the fire.

... is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


How do you see a person being cast into the fire and burned, as being saved?

Please share the scripture that people who are cast into the fire, are saved, though they are burning in fire.


JLB

Why not this fire?
13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right. Which includes Eternal Life (and as the OP points out as an irrevocable gift) not a chance at Eternal Life

I'm not in disagreement with this. The believer has eternal life now, when he believes (to the extent one can have it in this life). Eternal life is as much a quality of life as it is a length of life. The point of contention is whether or not you can lose that eternal life before the resurrection.

if you mature enough in your Earthly life and bear enough fruit in accordance with your maturity level.

...because of a denial of Christ.
You must understand the entire argument if you're going to try to refute it.
The person who does not mature in Christ because they have fallen away from the faith in a denial of Christ will forfeit the salvation he had when he believed. The struggling saint tenaciously clinging to the forgiveness of God in Christ through the worst of times still has the salvation/eternal life given him when he first believed. To lose it the person has to deny Christ altogether. That is when his disobedient unfruitfulness (his sin) will condemn him beyond remedy:

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29 NASB bold mine)

 

[JLB]

Does it have to read that way?
The Berean Literal Bible says it this way:
Every branch not bearing fruit in Me, He takes it away; and every one bearing fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit

The Internation Standard Version put it this way:
He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me,

In other words, unless you are in Christ you are not producing fruit.

The Aramaic Bible in plain English say:
“Every branch on me not yielding fruit he takes away...

On me is not in me

Gills exposition of the entire bible puts it this way....

There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state.

Understanding that, as the English Standard Version puts it:
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,

Does "in me" refers to those saved?

I answered this post already.

In Me, refers to being "in Christ".

This is a reference to being saved.

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:23-24

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Eternal life and redemption are in Christ Jesus, for in Him is the Spirit of Life.

Those who are in Him, are joined to Him, and are joined to the eternal life that is in Him.

12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:12-13


JLB

 

[JLB]

That particular question was for JLB, but if you know where Scripture(s) tells me how much fruit I (a 30 year+) branch needs to produce each year in order to not lose salvation, then please point it out. Or the previous post where you did.

I don't find any amount of fruit in scripture, that is required for salvation.

Again the point Jesus is making is abiding in Him.

You can try to produce fruit in and of yourself that is no use to Him.

The point is to remain in Him, so that His life will continue to flow into you.


It would do well for you to take heed of the things He said to His servants on the Day of judgement.

Maybe He has moved on you to do one of these things for His people in the past?

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-40


And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.” Matthew 10:42



JLB