Eternal security or conditional security?

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine said: Whatever your faith in Christ can and will produce in your life at this moment.

Where does the bible teach this?

"I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained." (Philippians 3:16 NASB)

And in the Parable of the Talents, Jesus speaks of the amount of knowledge given being given according to one's ability, and the increase you are expected to bring on the knowledge you were given being in accordance with what was entrusted to you to bring increase to (Matthew 25:14-30 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Additionally:

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." (Luke 12:48 NASB)

The author of Hebrews speaks of the expectation of 'land' upon which the blessings of God have fallen, and that 'land' being burned up in the end if it fails to produce the expected useful harvest for the one for whom it was seeded:

"ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." (Hebrews 6:7-8 NASB)

 

[JLB]

And if you read my post I answered what fire and when.

Common error actually but hell is before the Great White Throne Judgement and only after does the Lake of Fire come into play.

So the fire that Jesus mentioned in John 15 is hell or the lake of fire?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually, please show me the claim that having no fruit results in being tossed into the lake of fire.

I know why people are cast into the lake of fire, and it isn't because of lack of fruit. It's because of lack of having eternal life.

Rev 20:15 - And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here is where it speaks of 'having no fruit results in being tossed into the lake of fire':

31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me somethingto eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give Yousomething to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25: NASB)

These fruitless people (lacking the fruit of the Spirit, love, compassion, etc.) will be condemned on the basis of their works, not on the basis of if they simply have eternal life. That doesn't mean salvation is by works. It means works will be used to measure whether or not you have the faith that justifies. For even Paul said the faith that justifies is the faith that loves (works):

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (towards justification--see context), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

But so many in the church are convinced that the 'faith' that doesn't have the fruit of the Spirit, love, attached also justifies. But as Jesus teaches us in the passage above, they will be sorely surprised on the Day of Judgment.

 

[Hospes]

Whatever your faith in Christ can and will produce in your life at this moment.

Is it my faith producing the fruit or is it something I do or is it both? If there is any part of me - freely acting independently - then I have some degree of entitlement to the success of my salvation. (I know I have hit this point 2x before, but it has yet to be clearly addressed by anyone having your position.)

 

[JCitoL]

reincarnation is not a Christian teaching. Reba

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it my faith producing the fruit or is it something I do or is it both? If there is any part of me - freely acting independently - then I have some degree of entitlement to the success of my salvation. (I know I have hit this point 2x before, but it has yet to be clearly addressed by anyone having your position.)

Note the embolded parts.

"He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:4-11 NASB italics in original)

 

[Cygnus]

The 'work' that will potentially burn up if Paul or anyone else fails in his ministerial duties are, in this case, the Corinthians ("Are you not my work in the Lord?" 1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB). If Paul fails to build them up into that which can withstand the fires of the coming Judgment he loses the reward of their presence in heaven (1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB, Philippians 2:16 NASB). He himself will be saved. Their acceptance or rejection of the gospel doesn't determine his salvation. It only determines his reward. If they burn up in the Judgment he loses his reward in heaven--namely, them, and his work will have been in vain. Not just in not being able to save them, but in bringing no reward for him.

The verse is about Christian's who would build on foundations apart from Christ....If anyone builds...Paul is talking to everyone. You...me....everyone. It's not about Paul losing a reward of people not making it to heaven. That's simply not in that verse. People salvation isn't based on how good Paul is when he preaches.

If you notice in the verse the mans works will be burnt up. The works are appraised, the works are burnt up. NOT the man.

 

[JLB]

3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

When I first started quoting from John 15, I used to quote verse's 1-6.

My post's got to be to long.

Then I just quoted verse 6, or 2 & 6, or 5-6 to make the point that a person can be in Him, but not remain in Him.

The point of your verse's is: the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine.

People who come to be "in Christ", must remain in Him.

If a person is in Christ, then later is no longer in Christ, then it's surely possible that they could end up thrown into the fire and burned.

If you don't bear fruit.....you were never saved.

How does an unsaved person come to be "in Him"?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You're trying to make a metaphor something literal.

Here is the parabolic reference to teaches a literal truth: “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Here is the truth the parabolic reference refers to: If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Branches refer to things.

Anyone, he, them refer to people.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If there is any part of me - freely acting independently - then I have some degree of entitlement to the success of my salvation.

Take God's gracious gift of faith out of the process and you will see there is no occasion for boasting, except in the Lord, in regard to the effort we diligently extend towards bringing the knowledge of God to fruition in our own, or other people's lives. Paul speaks of that grace here in regard to his ministry:

"17But HE WHO BOASTS IS TO BOAST IN THE LORD. 18For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends." (2 Corinthians 10:17-18 NASB)

"10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. " (1 Corinthians 15:10 NASB)

So we see the power of God making his labor possible, but also him purposely putting that power to work. So it is with daily living. We can't boast of our own power and righteousness, but we can certainly extend our own diligent effort to purposely walk in that power. In fact, we have the obligation to do so.

 

[Cygnus]

Reply to a deleted post reba

 

[JLB]

Is it my faith producing the fruit or is it something I do or is it both? If there is any part of me - freely acting independently - then I have some degree of entitlement to the success of my salvation. (I know I have hit this point 2x before, but it has yet to be clearly addressed by anyone having your position.)

Paul writes to the Philippians about these things.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

When Paul was present with them he would have them to express their faith by acts of love and kindness in helping others in need.

He was pleased that they continued to carry on this lifestyle even after he left, and assured them it was God working in them to do these things, as he called it... working out your salvation from within, where God was working in them to do.


It is God, by His Spirit working within us to do His good pleasure. The Spirit is in us to lead us and guide us to do things for the Lord's people, as doing these acts of love towards the Lord's people, is doing them for the Lord Himself.


James said it this way - Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:17



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The verse is about Christian's who would build on foundations apart from Christ

No, read it carefully. The foundation is Christ and has already been set (1 Corinthians 3:11 NASB). Remember the Biblical metaphor of the 'building' of God is Christ the cornerstone, then the Apostles and Prophets, then the rest of us (Ephesians 2:20 NASB, 1 Peter 2:5 NASB). The issue is what ministers of the gospel are building upon that foundation already laid (Christ) and if those people are of such a quality that they can can withstand the coming fire of Judgment at the end of this age. Those built on the foundation of Christ in this age who are mere straw and wood, and not made of precious stone able to withstand fire, will be burned up in the lake of fire. They will not survive and enter into the kingdom.

And so it is that Paul is saying he must be careful what, and how he teaches the Corinthians so that they will hear a gospel that can make them into that which can withstand the fires of Judgment and not into that which will perish in the flames of Judgment at the end of the age.

 

[JLB]

You still have not answered this question.
The reason why your answer to it (yes/no) is central to clarifying why you think John 15 describes de-salvation is because the reason The Father removes the branches Is because they've not been producing fruit. Not for unbelief.

Do you feel it is necessary for every believer (every branch) to bear fruit in order to be saved?

It's depends on the age of the person in Christ.

It someone get's saved in a crusade or Church meeting, and get's killed the next day or next week, or next month, then no.

Here an example:

Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up... he was killed in a car accident, before he fell away.

I believe this type of person who did not bear any fruit, was saved.

Why? The context is that of a farmer burning cut and pruned branches in fire. That is obviously the mental picture Jesus meant for His readers to imagine, not a Lake of Fire. I'll stick with the Text there in John 15 rather then conjured Texts pulled out of their contexts into this one.

But you can read Ex 3:2 if you'd like an example to answer your question.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and theygather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Branches refer to things.

Anyone, he, them refer to people.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

People salvation isn't based on how good Paul is when he preaches.

We know that's not true. Even right there in the Corinthian church Paul tells them that a gospel preached that does not include a risen Christ can not save. So it surely does matter what you are laboring at in regard to the gospel and whether your gospel can, or can not save people.

"15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:15-17 NASB)

If you notice in the verse the mans works will be burnt up.

And I showed you that Paul said the Corinthians are his work (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB). If his 'work' in the building of God is not people made of imperishable material (spiritually speaking--remember the metaphor in scripture of people being the building of God), then that work, those people made of perishable material instead, will be burned up in the Judgement. Paul himself will be saved (assuming he was preaching the correct gospel to them), but his work, the people he set on the foundation of Christ, will be burned up, and his labor will have been in vain.

The works are appraised, the works are burnt up.

If I built a house and you were to appraise my work, you would not come to me, you would go to that which I built and test/appraise it. And that is exactly what Paul is saying. God will judge the quality of his craftsmanship in the building of God. Everything that doesn't pass the test of fire will be burned away, and if that happens, Paul will have no reward for work that isn't there anymore because it got burned up. So Paul says, 'be careful how you build'.

 

[JLB]

It means what Jesus says it means. A fire. He doesn't ever say it means anything else like He does for the branches (the disciples), the vine (Him), the vinedresser (The Father).

Ok, so you agree that those who are in Him, if they don't remain in Him, are cast into literal fire and burned.

The fire is a literal fire.

Yep. And clean people aren't damned for lack of fruit production.

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

You refers to those who are clean.

Jesus says to those who are clean: Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Anyone refers to ANYONE.

Jesus says to anyone: If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

How does an unsaved person come to be "in Him"?



JLB

Does it have to read that way?
The Berean Literal Bible says it this way:
Every branch not bearing fruit in Me, He takes it away; and every one bearing fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit

The Internation Standard Version put it this way:
He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me,

In other words, unless you are in Christ you are not producing fruit.

The Aramaic Bible in plain English say:
“Every branch on me not yielding fruit he takes away...

On me is not in me

Gills exposition of the entire bible puts it this way....

There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state.

Understanding that, as the English Standard Version puts it:
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,

Does "in me" refers to those saved?

 

[JLB]

Yep. Jesus was perfectly able to (but didn't) add the bolded Text below and say it the way you interpret it if He desired to:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser and the fire is the everlasting fire of destruction for un-productive believers.

Here are your words: It means what Jesus says it means. A fire.

He says The Fire, not a fire.

Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


I suppose "a fire" could be just about anything a person could dream up.

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


What does every tree mean to you?


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

We know that's not true. Even right there in the Corinthian church Paul tells them that a gospel preached that does not include a risen Christ can not save. So it surely does matter what you are laboring at in regard to the gospel and whether your gospel can, or can not save people.

"15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:15-17 NASB)


And I showed you that Paul said the Corinthians are his work (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB). If his 'work' in the building of God is not people made of imperishable material (spiritually speaking), then that work, those people made of perishable material instead, will be burned up in the Judgement. He himself will be saved (assuming he was preaching the correct gospel to them), but his work, the people he set on the foundation of Christ, will be burned up, and his labor will have been in vain.

I think you missed the point concerning Pauls preaching. Salvation isn't based upon how good a preacher is.

Secondly, 1 Cor 9....has nothing to do with verse 3. I'm still trying to figure out why you're using it. Are you saying they are the result of Pauls ministry? Pauls ministry is his works, the Corinthians understanding of Jesus are Pauls results?
The Corinthians will be judged upon how well Paul taught them? Help me here.

You kinda complicate the verse. The verse is about you and me. Our works...motivations... will be judged.