What verse teaches this?
And, how do you connect being fruitless to being faithless?
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Eternal security or conditional security?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
And, how do you connect being fruitless to being faithless?
That might be a popular saying, but it isn't Scriptural.
Not true. The inheritance yet to come is the rewards that can be lost on account of faithlessness and disobedient lifestyle. OSAS doesn't edited]ignore any of these verses.
Rather, LOS doctrine has ignored the aorist tense in many verses that prove that there is no condition to believe to the end to be saved. [edited]
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Actually, please show me the claim that having no fruit results in being tossed into the lake of fire.
I know why people are cast into the lake of fire, and it isn't because of lack of fruit. It's because of lack of having eternal life.
Rev 20:15 - And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
He noted that the words "in hell", which you added, are not in the text.
- Again, I do not see the words "in hell" in the text.
Sure, as an agricultural metaphor.
The branch isn't useful to the farmer who wants the branch to produce fruit. Just as God wants His children to produce fruit.
What really bothers me is the idea that those given eternal life can end up perishing for failure to produce fruit.
I don't know how that could work if Christ really is our Savior. He saves us from sin, but we can go to hell for crop failure?? That just doesn't make sense.
Such a view makes production of fruit our savior, since lack of production results in hell.
And, since production of fruit is something we do, we make ourselves our own savior in that view.
What I have shown from Scripture is that those who believe receive eternal life, per John 1:12 and Gal 3:26. And those who have received eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, per Jn 3:16 and 10:28.
And there are no verses in the Bible that tell me plainly that I can lose eternal life. Rather, that eternal life is a gift of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable.
Since Paul described eternal life as a gift of God, and said that God's gifts are irrevocable, if he believed that one could lose eternal life, he would have had to make it clear in Romans 11 that he wasn't including eternal life as an irrevocable gift.
But the way he wrote Romans, that is what he meant; that eternal life is irrevocable.
No exceptions were given in Romans 11:29 to exclude the gift of eternal life from the gifts that are irrevocable.
In fact, one can very safely conclude that no gift of God is revocable. Because no verse says that.
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J
JCitoL
Guest
isn't eternity a time?!, 1 decade is 10 years, 1 century is 100 years, 1 millennium is 1000 years, 1000 human years are like 1 day for God, and 1 day is like 1000 years for Him, eternity is eternal, infinity is infinite - it is all about time, in one case we talk about some period, in another case we talk about time's infinity, but in both cases there is talk of time, because there can be zillions of consequent millennia along the time's infinity, otherwise, if there was no time, nor would there be eternity and time's infinity, because the time is what makes one occurrence or another possible (for as long as possible), whatever the units of time may be, seconds, minutes, hours, weeks, or any others, and whatever the result of the measurement of the duration of any occasion may be, the same time elapses and can be measured even for God, evidence of this is even the fact that God appeared/manifested in certain situations within a sequence of various events, but mostly the fact that there will be a succession even in the Paradise of eternal life:
Revelation 7:16-17 "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.",
Revelation 22:1-2 "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
actually what makes life eternal is the succession of the variations of its variety, or what will (it) be if the paradisaical soul has only some continuity of one static, most primitive audiovisual perception, for example some light and sound without forms, colors, melody, rhythm, and any variety at all?!
are you aware of the biblical dictionary in accordance with which the Bible was translated?!, i ask you this because i notice(d) you read some translation(s) of the Bible, but the Bible translations do not list all the meanings of the biblical words and expressions, for example there are a lot of biblical words that have more than one meaning, many of them have three, four, five or more meanings, here is for example the meanings of the word "αἰών"(aiōn, Strong's G165) (according to that dictionary) which is used in the books of the New Testament in places where it is translated as "forever" or "eternity/eternal":
- for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
- the worlds, universe
- period of time, age
Blessings
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th1b.taylor
Member
No, if it were a measure of time God would not be in the past, in the present and in the future, right now. Infinite is not a measure of anything, it, like eternity, is limitless. You are dealing with and from an incorrect position because you have misdefined the terms.
Ok. If "thrown into the fire and burned" isn't referring to hell, then please from Jesus teachings tell us where these folks, who were in Him, then disconnected from Him, supposed to be burned in the fire, if not in hell.
Thrown into the fire and burned is what Jesus said. what other fire do people get thrown into.
Who throws them into the fire?
Where is this fire if not hell?
Good, it's supposed to bother you.
Thrown into the fire and burned, is not meant to comfort you.
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
Jesus doesn't make any mention about when. That's up to Him.
He does say... thrown into the fire and burned.
The question we are discussing is: If thrown into the fire and burned doesn't mean hell, then what does it mean?
What fire?
Where is this other fire in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is the final result of those who are damned.
Jesus called it everlasting fire.
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
Those who try and defend their man made, man conceived,OSAS doctrine, are forced to play word games with scripture, and attempt to change biblical terms and words so that "thrown into the fire and burned", means "something other than" thrown into the fire and burned.
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
Cygnus
Member
If you don't bear fruit.....you were never saved.
Like many who post scripture....often important verses are left out.
For instance....you left out verses 3 and 4. Why?
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
If you're clean....you abide. If you're not clean...you can't abide.
You're trying to make a metaphor something literal. Jesus' point was that believers who don't produce fruit cannot be used by the Father. The Jews were very serious about being used by God. Even the Pharisees thought they were doing God's will, though they were wrong.
The metaphor isn't literal.
Yes, your view does bother me. A great deal. This is the context for your comment here, from post #245:
"The branch isn't useful to the farmer who wants the branch to produce fruit. Just as God wants His children to produce fruit.
What really bothers me is the idea that those given eternal life can end up perishing for failure to produce fruit.
I don't know how that could work if Christ really is our Savior. He saves us from sin, but we can go to hell for crop failure?? That just doesn't make sense.
Such a view makes production of fruit our savior, since lack of production results in hell.
And, since production of fruit is something we do, we make ourselves our own savior in that view."
And, you didn't explain how your view doesn't do all this that I have pointed out.
So, I must take that as tacit agreement of what I said: that your view makes yourself your own savior, by producing fruit to avoid hell.
Yet, Scripture says something entirely different than your view:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:8-10
So, we are saved by grace through faith, not by production of fruit.
Our salvation is a gift of God. Fruit production is not a gift of God.
Our salvation is NOT as a result of works, or fruit production, so that no one may boast.
Finally, we are saved FOR good works, not BY good works, or fruit production.
It was your view that is bothersome, since it is not found in Scripture.
I AM comforted in the knowledge that those to whom Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That is very comforting for me.
I know that I do not deserve God's salvation. And I know that I cannot earn it. And I have no faith in myself to always "toe the line" or be obedient. But I know that in spite of myself, God has given me a guarantee for the day of redemption.
Please exegete.
chessman
Member
You still have not answered this question.
The reason why your answer to it (yes/no) is central to clarifying why you think John 15 describes de-salvation is because the reason The Father removes the branches Is because they've not been producing fruit. Not for unbelief.
Why? The context is that of a farmer burning cut and pruned branches in fire. That is obviously the mental picture Jesus meant for His readers to imagine, not a Lake of Fire. I'll stick with the Text there in John 15 rather then conjured Texts pulled out of their contexts into this one.
But you can read Ex 3:2 if you'd like an example to answer your question.
It means what Jesus says it means. A fire. He doesn't ever say it means anything else like He does for the branches (the disciples), the vine (Him), the vinedresser (The Father).
Yep. And clean people aren't damned for lack of fruit production.
Yep. Jesus was perfectly able to (but didn't) add the bolded Text below and say it the way you interpret it if He desired to:
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser and the fire is the everlasting fire of destruction for un-productive believers.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes it does. But just because one possesses the life that never ends doesn't mean they can not lose the life that never ends. Eternal life will still be eternal life and will exist forever and ever even if some lose the privilege to continue to possess it because of a denial of Christ.
That is not what is in contention. OSAS seems to be incapable of understanding that even in non-OSAS the person is saved at the moment of belief and surely does receive everything salvation is now in this life, and the promise of what it is in the life to come. The point of contention is that the life itself is what is eternal and never-ending, but your possession of it won't be eternal until you enter into the fullness of it at the resurrection:
29Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30 NASB bold mine)
This scripture says so: 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
Why is OSAS so blind to the plain truth of that passage? It's because indoctrinations are very, very powerful things. They have the power to make people not seen plain truth right under their noses. Even when you explain it to them.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB, for example, plainly says that you are saved if you keep--that is hold fast--the word of God. That makes that a condition for saved people to be saved, which instantly rules out the possibility that Paul was saying salvation is among the irrevocable gifts referred to in Romans 11:29 NASB.
The plain, spelled out words in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB are the more compelling evidence that overrules the vague, not spelled out words of Romans 11:29 NASB. But OSAS chooses to establish it's doctrine on the vague, less compelling scripture of Romans 11:29 NASB and totally ignore the plain, straightforward words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. That's unreasonable, if not dishonest. And especially dangerous when done with something so profoundly important as the matter of salvation.
It does. But what OSAS ignores is that the promise is for those who hold fast the word of God, not for those who cast it away in a denial of Christ. If OSAS is sure that is not true, then it needs to prove 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB does not say that.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Whatever your faith in Christ can and will produce in your life at this moment.
Cygnus
Member
Perhaps this is the fire.....
1 Cor 3:12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The 'work' that will potentially burn up if Paul or anyone else fails in his ministerial duties are, in this case, the Corinthians ("Are you not my work in the Lord?" 1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB). If Paul fails to build them up into that which can withstand the fires of the coming Judgment he loses the reward of their presence in heaven (1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB, Philippians 2:16 NASB).
He himself will be saved. Their acceptance or rejection of the gospel doesn't determine his salvation. It only determines his reward for his labor. If they burn up in the Judgment he loses his reward in heaven--namely, them, and his labor among them will have been in vain. Not just in not being able to save them, but in the fact that it will bring no reward for him.
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