Eternal security or conditional security?

[MarkT]

First

, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You left out the word "For" from Paul's statement. Romans 11:29 and you ignore "in Christ Jesus" from his statement Romans 6:23 It makes a difference if you leave out words. For instance, Romans 11:29 is expanding on Romans 11:25-28 In fact he says they will be saved as a consequence of or because of the fact that they are Israelites, and so they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers, again, as a consequence of the covenant God made with Jacob. So saying the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable is just saying God keeps his promises.

And eternal life is inherent in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23 says the free gift of God is eternal life 'in Christ Jesus'. And Jesus said, if a man doesn't remain in him, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6

 

[Cygnus]

Believe for a time, is what Jesus said in Luke 8:13

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

This group, in the face of persecution, fell away from Him.

Do you understand what is being said here.


JLB

Yes, I understand what is being said. Apparently you need the proper understanding.
From Gills...
They on the rock are they, which when they hear,.... The seed that fell upon the rock, or stony ground, signify such sort of hearers,
who receive the word with joy. The Ethiopic version reads, "with joy of heart". But, this sort of hearers receive not the word into their hearts, or with their hearts believe it, and from their hearts obey it, only into their heads; and have only, an historical faith of it; nor with hearty, spiritual, solid joy, or joy in the Holy Ghost: for their hearts remain like a rock, unbroken by the word; but with a flash of natural affection, which quickly goes off.

There is also this...
The analogy is to a seed that when sown lands on rocky ground where it can’t take root so it soon dies for lack of water. This describes a person who in the passion of the moment is swept up in the gospel and may even respond to an altar call. But the gospel never takes root in the person’s heart so when the first time of testing comes, the person quickly reverts back to his or her old ways. According to studies, this is the case with an overwhelming percentage of people who come forward at a revival or crusade where there’s lots of emotion and excitement.

By comparing this with Luke 8:15 where the word is received by a ready heart we can see that verse 13 describes a person who was never really saved in the first place.

Can you present me with some sort of commentary that agrees with your interpretation of that verse. In several moments I found two that disagreed with you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You never answered; Why do you think Paul said they believed to no purpose (vain), if they had received the gift of salvation and "everything that salvation is now"? Wouldn't that be of some purpose, even if it were temporary?

Paul didn't say they believed in vain. He expressed concern that they may be believing in vain by not holding fast the word preached to them in the beginning and by which they were saved, but are giving in to the false gospel that there is no resurrection. Doing that, if and when they do, makes the faith they started out with vain because they did not hold fast the original gospel message preached to them, the condition Paul says there is for the believer to be saved:

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Holding fast to the gospel through which they were saved is a condition for them to be saved by that gospel. But OSAS says there are no conditions for the believer to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Me too. You do realize that I honestly see zero conflict between 1 Cor 15:1-2 and salvation being one of God's irrevocable gifts don't you?

You probably do. But what you don't have is a reasonable answer to remove any conflict between a passage that supposedly says there are no conditions to be met for the believer in order for his gift of salvation to be irrevocable, and Paul's teaching that there is indeed the condition of holding fast in that which you first heard in order to be saved.

Not holding fast to the original message of Christ's death and resurrection and giving into a gospel that excludes the resurrection is hardly meeting the condition that one must hold fast in the gospel message by which they were saved to be saved.

 

[chessman]

Paul didn't say they believed in vain. He expressed concern that they may be believing in vain

See, that's a wrong interpretation already.
As I pointed out to you earlier, the verb tense for believe is past tense, not present or future.

He means they may have "believed in vain (no purpose)".

 

[JLB]

They on the rock are they, which when they hear,.... The seed that fell upon the rock, or stony ground, signify such sort of hearers,
who receive the word with joy. The Ethiopic version reads, "with joy of heart". But, this sort of hearers receive not the word into their hearts, or with their hearts believe it, and from their hearts obey it, only into their heads; and have only, an historical faith of it; nor with hearty, spiritual, solid joy, or joy in the Holy Ghost: for their hearts remain like a rock, unbroken by the word; but with a flash of natural affection, which quickly goes off.

What was the condition by which Jesus gave, that those who hear are saved?

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Believe and be saved.

Is there more a person is required to do, to become saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

See, that's a wrong interpretation already.
As I pointed out to you earlier, the verb tense for believe is past tense, not present or future.

He means they may have "believed in vain (no purpose)".

Paul doesn't say they had not "believed" [past tense] initially.

Paul says they "believed" past tense in vain, because they did not continue to hast fast the word which there heard...

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if ...


if you hold fast that word which I preached [past tense] to you—unless you believed in vain.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9


JLB

 

[chessman]

2 by which also you are saved, if ...

JLB

Exactly my point. That's one big bold red IF.

You are saved if you believed the gospel I preached to you unless you believed in vain (in which case you aren't saved).

 

[MarkT]

Now you want a different meaning, but even the word, 'irrevocable' carries with it a connotation of legal standing, a binding contract. So Romans 11:29 is about Jacob's descendants and their standing. They were supposed to receive the gifts the Gentiles received. Which is true. The Gentiles received the gifts.

A part of Israel was hardened. Still, Paul said, they are beloved because of their forefathers. So Paul says for this reason, or as a consequence of the covenant, for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, all Israel will be saved.

So this isn't a teaching about eternal life per se.

.

 

[JCitoL]

The eternal God exist outside of time...God created time....God sees all of His created time from the beginning of created time to the end. (if there is an end). God isn't bound by time. We are.

how, when the constant course of events implies/proves the presence of time?!, God is constantly active, and life means motion, either spiritual, conscious, mental, intellectual or physical:

Revelation 22:1 "he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."

maybe you know the sentence "i think, therefore i exist" i.e. even the existence is something active, something that flaws, runs, elapses, and passes, and when something happens, we say that thing flaws, runs, elapses, or passes, so this proves that there is always time, because God is always active, and there is always activity in the universe, and, if nothing else, at least the activity implies the presence of time

Blessings

 

[JLB]

Exactly my point. That's one big bold red IF.

You are saved if you believed the gospel I preached to you unless you believed in vain (in which case you aren't saved).

The if condition is on holding fast to the word.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

These brethren received the Gospel... which also you received, and in which you stand.

These brethren were saved, past tense.

The if condition is to hold fast [continue to hold, to have, to posses] the word which I preached [past tense] to you.

If were are saved by believing, then to continue to be saved, we must continue to believe by holding fast, continuing to hold, continuing to have the word by which we were initially save by, unless we [initially] believed [past tense] in vain.

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard,[past tense]. Colossians 1:23

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:14




JLB

 

[JCitoL]

No, again you make a common error but an error none the less. Paradise was emptied out when Jesus died on the cross, Matt. 27 about verse 51 or 52.

this world, of the physical atoms, was created as a Paradise by God in the beginning, but then it was turned into a place of vanity, however, i talked about the (world of) positive form of existence as a whole, including its abundance and endurance

Blessings

 

[chessman]

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Holding fast to the gospel through which they were saved is a condition for them to be saved by that gospel. But OSAS says there are no conditions for the believer to be saved.

Oh, I get it (duh) you think because Paul says "hold fast" or "hold firm" or "hold to" (depending on the translation) that he means you must continue that action (verb) into the future. Thus you call it a condition necessary to maintain your salvation by holding fast to it (so-to-speak) for the rest of your life.

If you want to hold fast to the belief that salvation is a revocable gift of God's based on this one Greek word, you better study it completely, else it's a vain/superfical belief.

In my opinion the Amplified version comes in handy here in order to get the fullest meaning of the original language:

1 Corinthians 15:2 (AMP) By this faith you are saved reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain just superficially and without complete commitment.
​

By including the fuller meaning of the Text, we see better what Paul means by "hold firmly" within this statement. It's basically the opposite of "vain". I might add with the opposite result too.
To hold something firmly is to not hold it superfically. It comes from a nautical term (as in 'is the anchor holding fast' versus dragging anchor)

And once again, I will point out that the vain belief he is addressing occurred in the past (not in the future) as you seem to indicate is happening in this text. Which precluded your take on this text from being accurate. A fact you are obviuosly avoiding discussion on.

For the Text to jive with your interpretation Paul would have said "unless you are now believing in vain". But he doesn't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are saved if you believed the gospel I preached to you unless you believed in vain (in which case you aren't saved).

But weren't you one that agreed that the 'if' actually means 'because', or 'since' so as to make their salvation and position in the gospel a sure thing, not a matter of our English conditional 'if'? Do you see that if you believe that then Paul's 'unless you believed in vain' has no place in the passage as you are interpreting what vain belief means? Do you realize that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And once again, I will point out that the vain belief he is addressing occurred in the past (not in the future) as you seem to indicate is happening in this text. Which precluded your take on this text from being accurate. A fact you are obviuosly avoiding discussion on.

No, actually I'm not avoiding anything, but am off and on my computer today while we celebrate my Down Syndrome Son's birthday. We've had a whole day of events that we've been executing.

By including the fuller meaning of the Text, we see better what Paul means by "hold firmly" within this statement. It's basically the opposite of "vain". I might add with the opposite result too.

Okay, it seemed like you were getting close to what Paul was referring to.....but then you don't follow through...

To hold something firmly is to not hold it superfically. It comes from a nautical term (as in 'is the anchor holding fast' versus dragging anchor)

You were doing good until this.
You are correct in that the fuller text gives us what it is that solicits Paul's 'unless you believed in vain' (vs. 2).
He goes on to explain that their belief in the gospel HE PREACHED is in vain if it is true that Christ and the dead are not risen:

"if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." (1 Corinthians 15:14 NASB)

In the passage, the absence of the resurrection in the gospel is what has the potential to make their faith-the faith and salvation he himself said they have--vain. So you are certainly correct that it is the fuller context that explains the importance of holding fast that which they heard from him and which tells us what it is exactly that represents their NOT holding fast the word of the gospel they first heard from him and were saved by.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, I get it (duh) you think because Paul says "hold fast" or "hold firm" or "hold to" (depending on the translation) that he means you must continue that action (verb) into the future. Thus you call it a condition necessary to maintain your salvation by holding fast to it (so-to-speak) for the rest of your life.

But anyway, yes, this is my argument and what the passage plainly says. But OSAS says there is no condition of any kind for the believer to be saved. It says they already are irreversibly saved, even if they don't hold fast the gospel they were originally and legitimately saved through.

 

[chessman]

The if condition is on holding fast to the word.
...
The if condition is to hold fast [continue to hold, to have, to posses] the word ...

I know the if condition is to hold firm. That's not in debate. The if condition is not, however, on holding firm (future tense).

You are making the same mistake that JB is making. And it has been demonstrated as a mistake. It's not just my opinion.

These brethren were saved, past tense.

Not any that believed in vain, weren't.

 

[chessman]

But anyway, yes, this is my argument and what the passage plainly says.

.. he means you must continue that action (verb) into the future.

The future tense is NOT the tense of the verb form used by Paul for "hold fast". Thst's what's plain.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not any that believed in vain, weren't.

...from the beginning. We know that. But Paul is not addressing that point anywhere in the text.

Can you explain how not really being saved to begin with, just in pretense (your interpretation of 'unless you believed in vain' vs. 2) nullifies the condition for the saved person to be saved if they hold fast the word?

Your argument is the same as the argument that the 'if' actually means 'because', or 'since'. It doesn't change the fact that the condition for the saved person to saved is to hold fast the word of the gospel by which they were saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The future tense is NOT the tense of the verb form used by Paul for "hold fast". Thst's what's plain.

I never said it was. I know it's a present tense Greek verb, which means an ongoing holding fast of the word, not a one time past holding of the word. Paul says that present tense holding fast of the word of the gospel that saved them is what has to happen for them to be saved.

From http://ezraproject.com/id27.html:
"A present indicative verb describes an action taking place at the present time. Normally, this action is a continued action taking place right now."

Sorry, I'm thinking of the 'holding fast' verb. Disregard what I just said.

Oh, wait.....that's what we're talking about. Time to take a break!