Eternal security or conditional security?

[chessman]

But weren't you one that agreed that the 'if' actually means 'because', or 'since' so as to make their salvation and position in the gospel a sure thing, not a matter of our English conditional 'if'?

No. That was not me. I make a living off of writing IF, THEN, ELSE computer code. I know the logical form very well. Which is exactly what Paul is using here.

IF you hold fast the Gospel
THEN you are saved
ELSE you are lost

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The believing that would be in vain is the believing done in Paul's gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ preached to them (vs. 3-4) if indeed it was actually true that Christ is not risen from the dead (vs. 14). We get all that right from the passage. Your interpretation of vain believing is not being represented in any way shape or form in the passage.

 

[JLB]

No. That was not me. I make a living off of writing IF, THEN, ELSE computer code. I know the logical form very well. Which is exactly what Paul is using here.

IF you hold fast the Gospel
THEN you are saved
ELSE you are lost

Amen!

You got it!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

IF you hold fast the Gospel
THEN you are saved
ELSE you are lost

That's exactly my argument. The saved Corinthians (Paul said so) are saved if they 'hold fast' (present indicative) the gospel Paul preached to them (vs. 2). Unless that believing is in vain (vs. 2) because (supposedly) Christ is not risen (vs. 14). It's all right there in the passage.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I never said it was. I know it's a present tense Greek verb, which means an ongoing holding fast of the word, not a one time past holding of the word. Paul says that present tense holding fast of the word of the gospel that saved them is what has to happen for them to be saved.

From http://ezraproject.com/id27.html:
"A present indicative verb describes an action taking place at the present time. Normally, this action is a continued action taking place right now."

Sorry, I'm thinking of the 'holding fast' verb. Disregard what I just said.

Oh boy! I'm tired and not thinking straight. I see I was in fact understanding what you were saying.
Going to bed now, good night.
And thank you for the courteous, respectful discussion.
I hope you stick around for more thoughtful discussion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No. That was not me. I make a living off of writing IF, THEN, ELSE computer code. I know the logical form very well. Which is exactly what Paul is using here.

IF you hold fast the Gospel
THEN you are saved
ELSE you are lost

I think we discussed how one would construct a logical statement out of Paul's psuedo code once before. I write code for a living too. Not as a primary career skill, but as a part of other things I do at work. I'll take his logic apart tomorrow and put it in a coded logical structure.

 

[chessman]

I have to go. Got an early flight. I will address some of this more later. We made some progress in understanding each other better, I think.

God bless.

p.s. I agree that a person standing before Christ at the judgement holding fast to vain gospel to whom Christ says "well done..." is absurd and offensive to that very same Gospel.

 

[th1b.taylor]

this world, of the physical atoms, was created as a Paradise by God in the beginning, but then it was turned into a place of vanity, however, i talked about the (world of) positive form of existence as a whole, including its abundance and endurance

Blessings

It is impossible to float in and out of a subject and to have meaningful conversation. The subject as I understood it was about Hell and it' s relation to the fire Jesus spoke of. Pulling a zinger like that, if you did this from anything other than a serious lack of knowledge is a direct feed into snarky comments, don't do that, I do not find you nor am I treating you as a fool but you try to treat me that way?

 

[reba]

nice read guys thanks

 

[chessman]

IF you hold fast the Gospel
THEN you are saved
ELSE you are lost

That's exactly my argument.

Amen!
You got it!

The reason we all three can agree on the functionality of the way I paraphrased Paul's logical statement made in 1 Cor 15:2 using an IF, THEN, ELSE structure is because;1) it's accurate to the Text and 2) it says nothing whatsoever about loss of salvation. That's my point; Paul's not telling them how to become un-saved. He's simply telling them that a person is lost (present tense) if they believed in vain (past tense). Which is something we all can agree with.

But you guys then turn the verse into the following IF,THEN functionality statement on occasions while defending your doctrine's anti-OSAS 'proof':

IF you don't continue to hold fast the Gospel in the future
THEN you will lose your salvation in the future

Which is not the logical structure of the verse Paul wrote. That's just your interpretation of what he meant to say but didn't actually say.

Even referring to it as a 'warning passage' that 'plainly' teaches anti-OSAS and thus reasoning Eternal Life cannot be irrevocable because of it.

Thus, you have no valid Biblical argument coming from within these verses.

Here, I will place the actual Text into the IF, THEN,ELSE logic structure/code we all three agreed with and tag the verb tenses he used as well.

Then you are welcome to try and do the same with your de-salvational usage/ structure:

IF you hold fast the Gospel-if you hold firmly (present tense) to the word which I preached (past tense) to you

THEN you are saved-By this faith you are saved (present tense) reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose

ELSE you are lost-unless you believed (past tense) in vain just superficially and without complete commitment

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He's simply telling them that a person is lost (present tense) if they believed in vain (past tense). Which is something we all can agree with.

I agree. We just differ on what it is that made their believing (past tense) vain. You say it was an inadequate salvation experience that didn't really result in salvation. I say it was what Paul brings up right in the passage, that they are not, or are in danger of not holding fast to his original gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB).

Heading out to the slave ship. Will read the rest of your post later.

 

[JCitoL]

It is impossible to float in and out of a subject and to have meaningful conversation. The subject as I understood it was about Hell and it' s relation to the fire Jesus spoke of. Pulling a zinger like that, if you did this from anything other than a serious lack of knowledge is a direct feed into snarky comments, don't do that, I do not find you nor am I treating you as a fool but you try to treat me that way?

bill, i admit that i have the problems that i have, let's say angels of satan try to derange me, but as for my testification of God's word, i don't lie to any person, though i have been persecuted by the kingdom of satan/beast for many years including now, yet thanks to God and His Son, Jesus Christ, i can still witness Their Word, for which i am very thankful to Them(the true Lord God)

Blessings

 

[Hospes]

Paul writes to the Philippians about these things.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

When Paul was present with them he would have them to express their faith by acts of love and kindness in helping others in need.

He was pleased that they continued to carry on this lifestyle even after he left, and assured them it was God working in them to do these things, as he called it... working out your salvation from within, where God was working in them to do.


It is God, by His Spirit working within us to do His good pleasure. The Spirit is in us to lead us and guide us to do things for the Lord's people, as doing these acts of love towards the Lord's people, is doing them for the Lord Himself.


James said it this way - Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:17



JLB

You picked just the verse to make my point:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)​

As you and I agree, we are to use every bit of our will and ability to work out our own salvation. But the Holy Spirit does more than lead and guide, he actually moves our will and gives us what is necessary to do God's work. And if my will is to do something and I have the ability to do something, what stops me from doing it? Nothing. According to this verse, He deserves credit for both: my will and my ability. Given it is God that graciously provides his child all that is necessary for performing his good pleasure, it would constitute a failure on His part "to will and to work for his good pleasure" for them to lose their salvation. I do not think he fails in "...his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works..." (Ephesians 2:10 ESV)

​

 

[FreeGrace]

I CAN'T include salvation in the gifts that are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 because that would make Paul a liar who said the Corinthians are saved "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB).

Or...it means you aren't understanding 1 Cor 15:2.

If Paul did not include the gift of eternal life in the gifts of God that are irrevocable, then he was quite the sloppy writer, because he specifically described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God, which fit perfectly in Rom 11:29. And he made no effort to specifically exclude the gift of eternal life from what he wrote in Rom 11:29. It takes a lot of assumption to exclude the gift of eternal life from God's gifts that are irrevocable.

That's a condition to be saved that OSAS swears does not exist in the Bible and which instantly rules out any suggestion that Paul was talking about salvation in Romans 11:29 NASB.

The only condition for salvation is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. That's what Paul said in Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

This is probably the most straight-forward verse in the Bible about what one MUST DO to be saved, since that was precisely the jailer's question in v.30 - and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

What's even more instructive is the tense that Paul used for the word "believe"; the aorist tense, which ignores duration of time. It is simply a point in time action.

Salvation is gifted on the basis of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And besides, Paul doesn't explicitly spell out the gifts that are irrevocable that there is any chance whatsoever that 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 somehow contradicts Romans 11:29 NASB. So an argument for that can't be made.

The argument HAS been made and is irrefutable. Paul specifically described God's gifts previously in his letter to the Romans before he wrote 11:29, so we absolutely DO KNOW what he meant by the phrase God's gifts" in 11:29. He already did explicitly spell them out.

Justification is called a gift of God in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17.
Eternal life is called a gift of God in Rom 6:23.

Therefore, he didn't have to "explicitly spell out" what he meant by gifts in 11:29 because he already had done that.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The Bible teaches who does the placing "into Christ" in Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

Now, where is the verse that teaches that any human being is able to get "out of Him"? That is the question."

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:1-2

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
JLB

This doesn't answer my question.

Let me explain. In Jn 15:2, the phrase "He takes away" doesn't SAY anything about loss of salvation, so that would be only an assumption.

No where in Scripture is one's salvation based on fruit production. And Jn 15:2 doesn't support that either.

And it is true that people can depart from God, just as the prodigal left his father. But the relationship remained intact. It was fellowship that was lost while the son was away blowing the father's money.

However, where does Scripture clearly explain that departing from God results in loss of salvation?

 

[FreeGrace]

We know from the context of this discourse about Israel what the gifts and calling of Israel are that are irrevocable:

"3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 9:3-5 NASB)

The only problem is that Paul never described any of this as "gifts of God". In fact, no where in Scripture are these things described as gifts of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe for a time, is what Jesus said in Luke 8:13

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

This group, in the face of persecution, fell away from Him.

Do you understand what is being said here.

These stopped believing because they were persecuted, that's what Jesus is teaching.

Jesus foretells of the persecution that was going come from unbelieving Jews who were attempting to turn Jewish converts to Christ, back to the ["antichrist"] religion of Judaism. The same folks who murdered Him, would continue to try and stop the spread of the Gospel.

This is what the writer of the book of Hebrews is warning these "Jewish" Christians about.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Fall away in Luke 8:13 and depart in Hebrews 3:12 are the same Greek word.


Strong's G868 - aphistēmi - Depart - Fall Away

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while

If you are faced with persecution from Islamic Extremist's, and you renounce Jesus as Lord, and convert to Islam, by confessing Allah as Lord, then you are no longer a believer in Jesus Christ.
JLB

The problem continues to be that no where in the Bible is ceasing to believe equated with ceasing to be saved.

In fact the use of the aorist tense by both Jesus and Paul refutes that idea, as I've already explained a number of times.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Because there are no such verses, we don't find eternal security there. But we do find eternal security in all the verses posted in the OP in points 1-5.

I have invited anyone who disagrees to deconstruct all those verses to show that they don't teach eternal security."

You have found those who disagree, and have stated the scriptures that plainly say why.

You misunderstand me. Disagreement isn't the issue here. I asked those who do disagree that all the verses in the OP teach OSAS to "deconstruct all those verses TO SHOW THAT THEY DON'T TEACH ES.

That's what I said. So far, those who disagree have not explained what ANY of those verses do teach, if not ES.

Romans 6:23 plainly states:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This verse is from your point, which I am discussing one at a time.

Well, if you want to discuss Rom 6:23, you HAVE to discuss Rom 11:29, because BOTH verses speak of "the gift of God".

Christians are plainly warned that the wages of sin is death.

And we're all born condemned because of Adam's sin.
Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

And we're all born spiritually dead:
Eph 2:1 - And you WERE dead in your trespasses and sins

The "were" refers to their status before they believed in Christ.

It seems you want Rom 6:23 to condemn believers who sin. Is that your position? If so, then please explain WHY Christ died for the sins of the world (Jn 1:29)? What was the purpose of that IF sin still sends a justified, forgiven, born again person to hell?

When asked to discuss the context, you have refused, stating that all the points must all be addressed all at the same time.

I never refused. And I never said "at the same time". I did say that all of the verses must be addressed.

Those who are in Christ Jesus, because he was given as a gift, have eternal life.

And God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Relationship with Jesus Christ is by definition eternal life.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Jn 17:3 doesn't speak of relationship, but KNOWLEDGE. Knowing God and His Son results in having eternal life. That's what the verse MEANS.

The Greek word for "know" is: ginōskō

1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
2a) to understand
2b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know

Because of #3, it has the connotation of an intimate kind of knowledge, not just a casual understanding.

Those who have the Son, have both the Father and the Son.

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23

And this fits perfectly with what Jesus said in John 10:28-29 - 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Jesus taught OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

I never said it was. I know it's a present tense Greek verb, which means an ongoing holding fast of the word, not a one time past holding of the word. Paul says that present tense holding fast of the word of the gospel that saved them is what has to happen for them to be saved.

This argument falls apart when one realizes that Jesus used the present tense in Luke 8:13 - “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe (present tense) FOR A WHILE, and in time of temptation fall away.

So Jesus clearly understood that the present tense does NOT mean continous action into the future.

From http://ezraproject.com/id27.html:
"A present indicative verb describes an action taking place at the present time. Normally, this action is a continued action taking place right now."

Sorry, I'm thinking of the 'holding fast' verb. Disregard what I just said.

Oh, wait.....that's what we're talking about. Time to take a break!

Yes, Jesus was saying the action of believing was "taking place right now". Nothing about continuing forever or even into the future.

I believe you're making more of the present tense than is called for.

 

[Hospes]

Note the embolded parts.

"He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:4-11 NASB italics in original)

I see the provision of "diligence" as a gracious gift from God; he causes it in his children. Even the desire/will to be diligent is a grace. Note the previous verse you omitted:

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, (2 Peter 1:3 ESV)​

I see the diligence called for as one of the "all things" God grants us. Because I see God providing all necessary for salvation, including diligence and the will to exercise diligence, I do not see room for loss of His salvation without a shortfall on His provision. You and I both know he does not fall short on anything.

BTW, another good passage byPeter:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5 ESV)​