Eternal security or conditional security?

[Hospes]

This thread is exhausting! Keeping up feels like drinking from a fire hydrant.

 

[chessman]

The believing that would be in vain is the believing done in Paul's gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ preached to them (vs. 3-4) if indeed it was actually true that Christ is not risen from the dead (vs. 14). We get all that right from the passage.

I agree. Except Paul didn't say "would be in vain" (as in future tense). He said; had believed (past tense).

Your interpretation of vain believing is not being represented in any way shape or form in the passage.

How so? I just agreed with what you think Paul meant by a vain belief.

 

[WIP]

This topic has proven to be a challenging one with lots of emotion attached. I want to take a moment to thank all of you for the past couple pages of posts. Very friendly, informative, and respectful. I hope we can keep up the good work.

 

[JLB]

I agree. Except Paul didn't say "would be in vain" (as in future tense). He said; had believed (past tense).

Yes. He said they believed... which they did, because they received the Gospel.

However, Paul makes it clear that they must continue to hold fast what they received [when they believed] or else run the risk that what they believed [past tense] was in vain.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

The phrase that makes it clear, for all to see... which also you received and in which you stand... that these folks were saved [past tense] and were standing in faith [presently] but were admonished to continue to hold fast the word which Paul preached [past tense] in order to be saved [in the future revealing of the Lord when He returns to judge the living and the dead] at the resurrection.






JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only problem is that Paul never described any of this as "gifts of God". In fact, no where in Scripture are these things described as gifts of God.

Actually the temple service is specifically said to be a gift (Numbers 8:19 NASB)

But if you want to insist these are not unmerited gifts from God then it will be necessary for you to explain what the Israelites did to earn these things.

 

[JLB]

You picked just the verse to make my point:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)​

As you and I agree, we are to use every bit of our will and ability to work out our own salvation. But the Holy Spirit does more than lead and guide, he actually moves our will and gives us what is necessary to do God's work. And if my will is to do something and I have the ability to do something, what stops me from doing it? Nothing. According to this verse, He deserves credit for both: my will and my ability. Given it is God that graciously provides his child all that is necessary for performing his good pleasure, it would constitute a failure on His part "to will and to work for his good pleasure" for them to lose their salvation. I do not think he fails in "...his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works..." (Ephesians 2:10 ESV)

He never fails. He gives us the choice to obey, and be blessed, or not and be cursed.

Notice what he said to His servants on the day of Judgement:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43


Those whom God worked in to both will and do His good pleasure, and they obeyed....
He said these words: ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Those whom God worked in to both will and do His good pleasure, and they dis-obeyed....
He said these words: Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

The difference between these two groups of His servants: One group did, while the other group did not.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree. Except Paul didn't say "would be in vain" (as in future tense). He said; had believed (past tense).

That's what I'm saying, too (but, surely, the possibility exists for that to happen in the future, too, if they don't listen to his warning).

The 'unless' in vs. 2 indicates his inquiry into whether or not the believing they had done in his gospel has been reduced to vain believing by the introduction of the false gospel among them that says there is no resurrection of the dead.

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (unless your belief in my gospel--past tense--was made vain by you not holding fast to my gospel in preference of the false gospel that excludes a resurrected Christ)." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB italics and parenthesis mine)

The context supports this interpretation completely.

Lot's to discuss with everybody participating. Will do so after I earn some more money to pay for the people, cat, and duck food for my household.

 

[MarkT]

Second

, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

People can fall into unbelief, and I don't think God is going to give his Spirit to those who are destined to fall away. As Jesus said many will fall away. Mt. 24:10 Also Paul is speaking to the saints at Ephesus. Ephesians 1:1 His teaching that they were sealed with the Spirit doesn't mean all believers are sealed with the Spirit. Some only believe for a while. Some are overcome by the cares of this world and the word is choked. How do you know when the Spirit is given? Maybe the word has to be given a chance to do its work before the Spirit can come.

It also matters what people believe because there are many false teachers and false prophets.
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[JLB]

People can fall into unbelief, and I don't think God is going to give his Spirit to those who are destined to fall away. As Jesus said many will fall away. Mt. 24:10 Also Paul is speaking to the saints at Ephesus. Ephesians 1:1 His teaching that they were sealed with the Spirit doesn't mean all believers are sealed with the Spirit. Some only believe for a while. Some are overcome by the cares of this world and the word is choked. How do you know when the Spirit is given? Maybe the word has to be given a chance to do its work before the Spirit can come.

It also matters what people believe because there are many false teachers and false prophets.
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

You make a good point Mark.

If you read a little further, Peter's warning about false teachers is brought to bear, as he uses the angels, who are sons of God, that were in fact cast down to hell, as an example to us.

The point: Being a son of God does not exempt a person from being cast down to hell, because of disobedience.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:1-4



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually the temple service is specifically said to be a gift (Numbers 8:19 NASB)

Do you think the temple service has any relevance to anything in the NT? I don't. And it wasn't "temple service" that the verse spoke of as a gift; it was the Levitical priesthood.

v.19 - “I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel, to perform the service of the sons of Israel at the tent of meeting and to make atonement on behalf of the sons of Israel, so that there will be no plague among the sons of Israel by

The Levites were the gift to Aaron FOR performing the service at the tent of meeting.

But if you want to insist these are not unmerited gifts from God then it will be necessary for you to explain what the Israelites did to earn these things.

I don't see how this is relevant to what all Paul wrote to the Romans. He described several "gifts" that come from God before he wrote that the gifts of God are irrevocable in 11:29. What are those gifts that he specifically mentioned?
spiritual gifts - 1:11
justification - 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life - 6:23

Since Paul never excluded any of these specific gifts when he wrote 11:29, we can be sure that these are the gifts that he was referring to.

There is no reason to demand that Paul needed to specify what gifts when he wrote 11:29 because he had already specified what he meant by gifts of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's exactly my argument. The saved Corinthians (Paul said so) are saved if they 'hold fast' (present indicative) the gospel Paul preached to them (vs. 2). Unless that believing is in vain (vs. 2) because (supposedly) Christ is not risen (vs. 14). It's all right there in the passage.

All emphasis has been placed on the singular Greek word translated "hold fast", and it seems the argument is that the believer is doing all the holding, and, as long as they keep holding, they keep being saved.

However, this is what Jesus said about who's holding who in John 10:
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Jesus taught that He and His Father are holding the believer and no one (that means no person) is able to take the believer out of their hand.

Recall that the context for who His sheep are begins in 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Jesus used the aorist tense for "enters", a metaphor meaning to believe in a point in time. Such a person becomes one of His sheep. And all who enter through Him will be saved. And those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

If Jesus wasn't teaching eternal security, what was He teaching? If v.28 and 29 are not teaching doctrine, then which category of the other 3 that Paul told Timothy that Scripture is profitable for: reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness??

We can't just ignore verses. They are ALL profitable, as Paul said in 2 Tim 3:16.

 

[chessman]

However, Paul makes it clear that they must continue to hold fast what they received [when they believed] or else run the risk that what they believed [past tense] was in vain.

...in order to be saved [in the future revealing of the Lord when He returns to judge the living and the dead] at the resurrection.

JLB

You are adding to what Paul said. And changing the verb tenses. Greek verbs tenses exist (but were not used) that could have described "hold fast" as a future action. But that's not what was used. Nowhere in the Text of 1 Cor 15:1-2 does Paul say anything about a future risk either. In fact, no future tense verbs are used at all.



Just like you add the context of Hell's fire to the passage in John 15:6 to a farmer's fire used to burn branches that he cut off and pruned. A fire such as that in no way conjures up an image of Hell. Jesus could have easily stated Hell fire if that had been what He meant.

IF you hold fast the Gospel-if you hold firmly (present tense) to the word which I preached (past tense) to you

THEN you are saved-By this faith you are saved (present tense) reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose

ELSE you are lost-unless you believed (past tense) in vain just superficially and without complete commitment

The italic words above are the very words of the Text simply inserted to the logical flow of the verse you previuosly agreed with. Nothing added or deleted.

Why add "risk" or a future or continuing tense to what Paul says?

 

[chessman]

That's what I'm saying, too (but, surely, the possibility exists for that to happen in the future, too, if they don't listen to his warning).

Can you at least agree that possibility isn't written into the Text of the verse?

 

[JLB]

that could have described "hold fast" as a future action.

Hold fast is present tense.

But that's not what was used. Nowhere in the Text of 1 Cor 15:1-2 does Paul say anything about a future risk either. In fact, no future tense verbs are used at all.

Not true.

Our salvation "in reality" is when Jesus returns.

That's where OSAS misses the boat.

Now we are saved by faith.

Which plainly means we have the hope of salvation, when Jesus returns.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Just like you add the context of Hell's fire to the passage in John 15:6 to a farmer's fire used to burn branches that he cut off and pruned. A fire such as that in no way conjures up an image of Hell. Jesus could have easily stated Hell fire if that had been what He meant.

I have patiently waited for you to refute what I said, and the scriptures I gave about "the fire".

You tried to insinuate that Jesus said and was referring to "a fire", when in fact He plainly said "the fire".

I also asked you to provide scriptures that teach us about the fire that people who are thrown in, if not hell fire or the lake of fire.

Here it is again -

He says The Fire, not a fire.

Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


I suppose "a fire" could be just about anything a person could dream up.

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18



JLB

 

[chessman]

I have patiently waited for you to refute what I said, and the scriptures I gave about "the fire".

Why? The context is that of a farmer burning cut and pruned branches in fire. That is obviously the mental picture Jesus meant for His readers to imagine, not a Lake of Fire. I'll stick with the Text there in John 15 rather then conjured Texts pulled out of their contexts into this one.

But you can read Ex 3:2 if you'd like an example to answer your question.

Nowhere in the Text of 1 Cor 15:1-2 does Paul say anything about a future risk either. In fact, no future tense verbs are used at all.

Not true.

Yes it is true. Study it, you'll see it's true. But if I'm wrong, prove it. Don't just state it as if were fact.

You tried to insinuate that Jesus said and was referring to "a fire", when in fact He plainly said "the fire".

Excuse me. He used "the fire" in the John 15:6 parable. Which is a definite article. Greek doesn't have indefinite articles. Thus He definitely meant the fire that a farmer would use to burn up cut/pruned branches since that was His context.

What He did NOT say is 'the Everlasting Fire' or the Hell fire. But you do.

 

[FreeGrace]

Our salvation "in reality" is when Jesus returns.

That's where OSAS misses the boat.

Not at all. Are you hoping that Jesus returns, or are you confidently sure that He will?

Now we are saved by faith.
Which plainly means we have the hope of salvation, when Jesus returns.

Scripture says we are saved by grace. Through faith. Do you see the difference?

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Since He bore the sins of the world, why would one's sins condemn one who has been given eternal life?

I have patiently waited for you to refute what I said, and the scriptures I gave about "the fire".

You tried to insinuate that Jesus said and was referring to "a fire", when in fact He plainly said "the fire".

Yes, the fire that the farmer started, in which to burn the branches. I don't think there is anything significant about whether Jesus used "a fire" or "the fire". The point is that when the Bible speaks of the second death, it uses such adjectives to clearly indicate that it is. For example,
Jude 1:13 - wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
Matt 8:18 - “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Matt 25:41 - “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
Jude 1:7 - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

By contrast, 1 Cor 3:14-15 uses "fire" to denote a judgment by which one may lose reward, but not salvation.
14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Here is a clear example of the use of "fire" without loss of salvation in view.

I also asked you to provide scriptures that teach us about the fire that people who are thrown in, if not hell fire or the lake of fire.

Here it is again -

He says The Fire, not a fire.

Did John capitalize the "t" in the word "the" in Jn 15:6?

Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18

All verses except the last one used adjectives to clearly identify that the fire refers to hell. The last one is like John 15:6, without any adjective to denote any link to hell.

“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


I suppose "a fire" could be just about anything a person could dream up.

Or what the Bible teaches.

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

This has not been established. 1 Cor 3:15 is about a fire where one stays saved.

 

[MarkT]

You make a good point Mark.

If you read a little further, Peter's warning about false teachers is brought to bear, as he uses the angels, who are sons of God, that were in fact cast down to hell, as an example to us.

The point: Being a son of God does not exempt a person from being cast down to hell, because of disobedience.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:1-4



JLB

As I understand it, angels are more more powerful than men, and Paul says we are to judge angels. Luke says the sons of God are equal to angels in that they can't die. Luke 20:36

I would agree we are not exempt, but the truth is we were not made for destruction. The prophesy is true, He will not lose any that the Father gives him.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:37-40

Re. angels who left their proper dwelling in heaven, Jude 1:6 says, the angels that did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling (I would think heaven) have been kept by God in eternal chains until the judgment of the great day.

Perhaps Cain was one such angel, or maybe it is talking about his angel. 1 John 3:12 says Cain was of the evil one. Maybe the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were angels, or perhaps they are talking about their angels. I don't think Peter and Jude are saying the sons of God sinned.

The eternal fire was prepared for Satan and his angels; whether men or spirit beings, I don't know. One thing's for sure, it was not prepared for the sons of God.

 

[MarkT]

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the Lord your God is a devouring fire, a jealous God.

If you're unfaithful, he will destroy you.

 

[MarkT]

Second

, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

True believers keep his commandments and abide in his love. You can't just say every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Many believers will fall away. But let's assume a man comes to life in the Spirit, but he does not remain in the vine. This man can no longer receive the living water, and so he withers and dies. He is dead to the vinedresser. So why would the vinedresser keep him? The Spirit is gone out of the man.

Ephesians 1:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)
12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Again we see the words, "In him". In Christ. So the words are for those who are 'In him'. Again, if he is not in him, then he has no inheritance.

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8

The land here is the man's heart.
apostasy

noun

the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.

 

[JohnDB]

just to add fuel to the discussion...

True believers keep his commandments and abide in his love. You can't just say every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Many believers will fall away. But let's assume a man comes to life in the Spirit, but he does not remain in the vine. This man can no longer receive the living water, and so he withers and dies. He is dead to the vinedresser. So why would the vinedresser keep him? The Spirit is gone out of the man.

Ephesians 1:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)
12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Again we see the words, "In him". In Christ. So the words are for those who are 'In him'. Again, if he is not in him, then he has no inheritance.

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8

The land here is the man's heart.
apostasy

noun

the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.

We just had a whole thread on these verses.
About Bonnie
It doesn't quite mean what you think it means...I start slow...and someone has to bail me out with a rescue...but the meaning is there.