Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

You can't just say every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Yet, that is precisely what Eph 1:13 does say.
Ephesians 1:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)
12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Again we see the words, "In him". In Christ. So the words are for those who are 'In him'. Again, if he is not in him, then he has no inheritance.

The passage tells us how one is placed "in Him". I prefer the NASB:
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

So, having believed, you were sealed in Him.

Many believers will fall away.

They are still sealed FOR the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). There are no verses that teach that any believer will be "unsealed" for any reason.

But let's assume a man comes to life in the Spirit, but he does not remain in the vine. This man can no longer receive the living water, and so he withers and dies.

I'm glad you mention "the living water", because Jesus also mentioned living water.
"but whoever drinks (AORIST TENSE) of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

By using the aorist tense for "drinks", Jesus was noting that he wasn't teaching that one must continue to drink in order to have eternal life, but that from a drink in a point of time SHALL NEVER THIRST.

 

[Hospes]

He never fails. He gives us the choice to obey, and be blessed, or not and be cursed.

...Those whom God worked in to both will and do His good pleasure, and they obeyed....
He said these words: ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

...Those whom God worked in to both will and do His good pleasure, and they dis-obeyed....

I agree obedience is absolutely necessary, but do you not see if God works in a person to will to do His pleasure, He necessarily works in the person to will to obey? How can anyone will to do God's pleasure without being willing to obey Him?

I face today trusting my Lord to work in my will, causing my desire to be for obedience and to work in my efforts to cause them to be of use to Him. At the end of this day I will thank Him for giving me the ability to trust, the desire/will to obey, and any good fruit coming from my efforts. Notice I have no reason to give myself credit for any good, "for from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:36 ESV) I'll state it again: if you have any bit of an independent-of-God part in mustering up obedience, then you deserve glory for your bit and are entitled to claim a bit of credit, i.e. boast, in your salvation.

Another verse that demonstrates what I am trying to convey:

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10 ESV)​

Paul on one hand writes he worked, but then states even his hard work was an undeserved good given him by God. JLB, my doctrine does not give a person license to not work at obedience, but it also gives no room for claiming credit in that work. Because my salvation rests solely on the faithfulness of my God to give me grace to work out my salvation, I believe he who began a good work in me will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)

 

[JLB]

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10 ESV)

That was Paul.

Paul set an example and asked the Church to follow his example of lifestyle.

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. Philippians 3:17-19

He told us their would be some who would not follow his example, those who set their minds on earthly things, who have become enemies of the cross.

Their end is destruction.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree obedience is absolutely necessary

Do you mean "absolutely necessary for salvation"?

If so, what about Eph 2:8-9
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. "

 

[FreeGrace]

That was Paul.

Paul set an example and asked the Church to follow his example of lifestyle.

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. Philippians 3:17-19

He told us their would be some who would not follow his example, those who set their minds on earthly things, who have become enemies of the cross.

Their end is destruction.
JLB

Yet, we know that souls are not destroyed. They exist forever, either with God, for those who have eternal life, or apart from God, known as the second death or the lake of fire. Because they do not have eternal life.

So, Phil 3:17-19 is speaking of God's discipline, which may include physical death. The body will be destroyed. But I wouldn't want to experience God's discipline through death. It is guaranteed to be rather uncomfortable.

 

[JLB]

Yet, we know that souls are not destroyed. They exist forever, either with God, for those who have eternal life, or apart from God, known as the second death or the lake of fire. Because they do not have eternal life.

So, Phil 3:17-19 is speaking of God's discipline, which may include physical death. The body will be destroyed. But I wouldn't want to experience God's discipline through death. It is guaranteed to be rather uncomfortable.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul's not telling them how to become un-saved. He's simply telling them that a person is lost (present tense) if they believed in vain (past tense).

Okay, let's see if I can jump back in the saddle here:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Both of the reasons we are putting forth for faith in Paul's original gospel becoming vain are past tense reasons. That is not in contention (although my reason can also occur in the future). What is in contention is what that past event was that can make, or has made their faith in the gospel vain.

I say it was the introduction of the false gospel into their midst that their is no resurrection of Christ. You say it was that they--or at least some of them--only believed in pretense and did not believe Paul's original message to the point of triggering a born-again salvation experience to begin with. Thus the inadequate faith they had was/is actually a vain faith.

Now, if my reason is the actual reason for their faith in Paul's gospel being vain then it is impossible for OSAS to be true. Obviously, if your reason is the actual reason for their faith in Paul's gospel being vain then OSAS can be true because the passage would not contradict the OSAS doctrine. In fact, your reason is actually the prevailing argument for OSAS--that a failure of faith signifies that the person never 'really' believed to salvation to begin with. If they had, their faith would not have failed.

And we can continue to debate which one of us has the more compelling argument. I think I do, of course, by reason that Paul then goes on in the chapter to explain to them what does make faith void--namely, embracing a gospel that says Christ is not risen from the dead and which leaves anyone who believes that dead in their sins (Christ being unable to ascend into the heavenly Temple to secure our justification on the altar--Romans 4:24-25 NASB).

The one thing in the passage quoted at the beginning of this post is "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (vs. 2). It stands as a kind of parenthesis to what Paul is saying. The point being, it is a truth whether one believed unto salvation or just in pretense. Paul preached the pure gospel of Christ. Regardless of if one actually has 'real' faith in the message, it is still necessary as a condition to hold fast what you got saved by to be saved. That truth stands all by itself in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. And since it is true it effectively makes it impossible for OSAS to be true that there are zero conditions attached to the free gift of salvation. The issue now becomes 'can a saved person stop holding fast to the word of the gospel that saved them?'. If my reason why the Corinthians faith is vain (for whom among them that is true) then it most certainly is possible to stop holding fast to that which you were saved by. He's plainly warning them to not let go of what he taught them, and doing that so they can be saved (citing it as a condition for salvation).

 

[JLB]

Okay, let's see if I can jump back in the saddle here:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Both of the reasons we are putting forth for faith in Paul's original gospel becoming vain are past tense reasons. That is not in contention (although my reason can also occur in the future). What is in contention is what that past event was that can make, or has made their faith in the gospel vain.

I say it was the introduction of the false gospel into their midst that their is no resurrection of Christ. You say it was that they--or at least some of them--only believed in pretense and did not believe Paul's original message to the point of triggering a born-again salvation experience to begin with. Thus the inadequate faith they had was/is actually a vain faith.

Now, if my reason is the actual reason for their faith in Paul's gospel being vain then it is impossible for OSAS to be true. Obviously, if your reason is the actual reason for their faith in Paul's gospel being vain then OSAS can be true because the passage would not contradict the OSAS doctrine. In fact, your reason is actually the prevailing argument for OSAS--that a failure of faith signifies that the person never 'really' believed to salvation to begin with. If they had, their faith would not have failed.

And we can continue to debate which one of us has the more compelling argument. I think I do, of course, by reason that Paul then goes on in the chapter to explain to them what does make faith void--namely, embracing a gospel that says Christ is not risen from the dead and which leaves anyone who believes that dead in their sins (Christ being unable to ascend into the heavenly Temple to secure our justification on the altar--Romans 4:24-25 NASB).

The one thing in the passage quoted at the beginning of this post is "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (vs. 2). It stands as a kind of parenthesis to what Paul is saying. The point being, it is a truth whether one believed unto salvation or just in pretense. Paul preached the pure gospel of Christ. Regardless of if one actually has 'real' faith in the message, it is still necessary as a condition to hold fast what you got saved by to be saved. That truth stands all by itself in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. And since it is true it effectively makes it impossible for OSAS to be true that there are zero conditions attached to the free gift of salvation. The issue now becomes 'can a saved person stop holding fast to the word of the gospel that saved them?'. If my reason why the Corinthians faith is vain (for whom among them that is true) then it most certainly is possible to stop holding fast to that which you were saved by. He's plainly warning them to not let go of what he taught them, and doing that so they can be saved (citing it as a condition for salvation).

Amen.

The OSAS doctrine denies that even continuing faith and believing are a condition of salvation, plainly showing to all, the root of it's origin.

As some of them have openly stated... A person can no longer believe, even converting to Islam, and confessing Allah as lord, and still be saved.

This is truly sad.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Do you believe in annihilation?

 

[Butch5]

All of the threads about whether one can lose salvation or not have been closed, for various reasons. And the discussions have generally been one-sided, or lop-sided. By that, I mean that the conditional security (CS) side for the most part simply ignore the verses provided by the eternal security (ES) side. No attempt is made to explain any of the verses from the ES side. The CS side just re-posts their verses as if that settles any debate. Hardly. What it shows is either an unwillingness to address the verses from the ES side, or a total inability to do so. Either way, the CS side is considerably weakend by such action.
.

That's an amazing statement since I've addressed your passages in our discussions. You've simply pretended what I've said isn't true as if that makes your argument valid. On the other hand when presented with passages which show that salvation can be lost you've side stepped them.

 

[Cygnus]

What was the condition by which Jesus gave, that those who hear are saved?

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Believe and be saved.

Is there more a person is required to do, to become saved?


JLB

You do understand there are many people who believe they are saved.

 

[Cygnus]

how, when the constant course of events implies/proves the presence of time?!, God is constantly active, and life means motion, either spiritual, conscious, mental, intellectual or physical:

Revelation 22:1 "he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."

maybe you know the sentence "i think, therefore i exist" i.e. even the existence is something active, something that flaws, runs, elapses, and passes, and when something happens, we say that thing flaws, runs, elapses, or passes, so this proves that there is always time, because God is always active, and there is always activity in the universe, and, if nothing else, at least the activity implies the presence of time

Blessings

As I tried to explain...God is outside of time..yet works in time. Time is a creation of the Godhead.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You do understand there are many people who believe they are saved.

Cygnus,
Many will say "But LORD..." and they believed they were saved but were not.

 

[MarkT]

Yet, that is precisely what Eph 1:13 does say.
Ephesians 1:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)
12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

The passage tells us how one is placed "in Him". I prefer the NASB:
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

So, having believed, you were sealed in Him.


They are still sealed FOR the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). There are no verses that teach that any believer will be "unsealed" for any reason.

Illogical.

If a man doesn't remain in him, he is dead. Dead branches are gathered and burned.
John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

That is the teaching of our Lord, and his teaching is true. His sheep follow him and only him.

So if you want to understand Paul, you have to examine Paul in the light of Christ. You can not make Jesus follow Paul. Believers are sealed with the promised Spirit, but Jesus said if a man does not remain in him he is dead. So even though the word you're looking for is 'unsealed', it follows that he is unsealed.

I'm glad you mention "the living water", because Jesus also mentioned living water.
"but whoever drinks (AORIST TENSE) of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

By using the aorist tense for "drinks", Jesus was noting that he wasn't teaching that one must continue to drink in order to have eternal life, but that from a drink in a point of time SHALL NEVER THIRST.

He doesn't have to say continue to drink. Jesus said the water he gives us will become a well of water in us springing up to eternal life. So we will never thirst. That's why we will never thirst. Because the water becomes a well. And certainly we continue to drink from the well.

 

[JohnDB]

Cygnus,
Many will say "But LORD..." and they believed they were saved but were not.

And they believed that they had fruit of their beliefs and works...
But what does Jesus say? What exactly does He call them?

So...
Obviously simply preaching theologies and morality doesn't cut the mustard according to Jesus.

Maybe in all their piousness they forgot about humility.

 

[JLB]

You do understand there are many people who believe they are saved.

There are alot of people that believe alot of different things.

Here in this thread we are discussing what the scriptures say, and specifically what Jesus said.

Try it again.

What was the condition by which Jesus gave, that those who hear are saved?

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Believe and be saved.

Do you believe there is more a person is required to do, to become saved?


JLB

 

[chessman]

Okay, let's see if I can jump back in the saddle here:

That's the issue. You are just jumping back on the 'this is a de-salvation verse' saddle. It's not. If it was, Paul would have said their belief might become vain in the future if you listen to these false prophets. Or better yet, has become vain because you have listened to them, He didn't say that.

You say it was that they--or at least some of them--only believed in pretense and did not believe Paul's original message to the point of triggering a born-again salvation experience to begin with. Thus the inadequate faith they had was/is actually a vain faith.

That's correct. Except it's not just me that says it, it's Paul.

that's what; "unless you believed [past tense] in vain just superficially and without complete commitment" means.

This would have been a great place for Paul to have said unless you have 'changed your belief' or something like that.

But he didn't!

Now, if my reason is the actual reason for their faith in Paul's gospel being vain then it is impossible for OSAS to be true.

I guess.

Obviously, if your reason is the actual reason for their faith in Paul's gospel being vain then OSAS can be true because the passage would not contradict the OSAS doctrine. In fact, your reason is actually the prevailing argument for OSAS--that a failure of faith signifies that the person never 'really' believed to salvation to begin with. If they had, their faith would not have failed.

Now you got your goes intas and goes outas right. (Just kidding of course. This should be fun, not upsetting! In a way, I don't really care about OSAS cause it would be impossible for me to stop believing. But others???)

... Paul then goes on in the chapter to explain to them what does make faith void--namely, embracing a gospel that says Christ is not risen from the dead and which leaves anyone who believes that dead in their sins (Christ being unable to ascend into the heavenly Temple to secure our justification on the altar--Romans 4:24-25 NASB).

I'm not sure what passage you mean?

1 Corinthians 15:12 (AMP) Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead

He's plainly warning them to not let go of what he taught them, and doing that so they can be saved (citing it as a condition for salvation).

If it's so 'plain', he used the wrong grammar to do so.

 

[JLB]

That's an amazing statement since I've addressed your passages in our discussions. You've simply pretended what I've said isn't true as if that makes your argument valid. On the other hand when presented with passages which show that salvation can be lost you've side stepped them.

That is his basic M.O.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

That's an amazing statement since I've addressed your passages in our discussions. You've simply pretended what I've said isn't true as if that makes your argument valid. On the other hand when presented with passages which show that salvation can be lost you've side stepped them.

I don't recall anyone who believes that salvation can be lost explaining what the verses in the OP teach.

 

[JLB]

Yet, we know that souls are not destroyed. They exist forever, either with God, for those who have eternal life, or apart from God, known as the second death or the lake of fire. Because they do not have eternal life.

So, Phil 3:17-19 is speaking of God's discipline, which may include physical death. The body will be destroyed. But I wouldn't want to experience God's discipline through death. It is guaranteed to be rather uncomfortable.

Jesus says that souls are destroyed.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28