Cygnus
Member
That isn't biblical. It contradicts scripture that says no one can snatch you from the hands of the Father or Jesus.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Eternal security or conditional security?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
That isn't biblical. It contradicts scripture that says no one can snatch you from the hands of the Father or Jesus.
Well then, what do all the verses in the OP teach, if not eternal security?
I'll take that as a yes.
If you have a free will, are you free to exercise your free will, to turn away from Christ, and confess Allah as Lord?
JLB
Where in the bible does it say we have lost our free will to no longer believe in Christ as the Messiah?
I said this:
"though one is saved by faith in Christ, they will be de-saved by lack of works."
btw, justification is a gift from God, per Paul in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and we know that the gifts of God are irrevocable from Rom 11:29.
How can a justified person ever end up in the lake of fire?
1 Cor 3:14,15 refutes the idea that one is saved by works.
"though one is saved by faith in Christ, they will be de-saved by lack of works."
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make sense. Faith in Christ justifies all by itself anyway, so your comment is puzzling. You believe that salvation can be lost. That means that someone who HAS faith in Christ, which justifies, can lost their salvation.
btw, justification is a gift from God, per Paul in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and we know that the gifts of God are irrevocable from Rom 11:29.
How can a justified person ever end up in the lake of fire?
The problem is that there are no verses that teach that one can lose eternal life.
No, the verse does not teach what you claim. In Revelation, overcoming is accomplished by lifestyle. To apply this verse to how one avoids the lake of fire means a system of salvation based on one's lifestyle, which is completely contrary to the rest of Scripture. We are saved ONLY by faith in Christ. Not of works (lifestyle), lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9
Because we are saved by faith, not by works.
1 Cor 3:14,15 refutes the idea that one is saved by works.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Correct, no one can snatch you from the hands of God. What can happen is you yourself can stop believing the gospel, thus the warnings not to do that. Loss of faith will indeed remove the one who presently believes from the vine, just as Israel--who are now lost, not somehow still saved--was removed from the vine because of unbelief:
"they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." (Romans 11:20-21 NASB)
I said this:
"In the context of Rev 2-3, an overcomer is a fruitful, faithful believer, not just a believer. And the Bible teaches that one is saved by grace, through faith, NOT BY WORKS, lest any one should boast. Eph 2:8,9.
So, the ONLY conclusion is that Rev 2:11 is a "litotes", which I explained and provided my source."
Why is the concept of eternal reward being rejected, since the word is found all over the NT?
"In the context of Rev 2-3, an overcomer is a fruitful, faithful believer, not just a believer. And the Bible teaches that one is saved by grace, through faith, NOT BY WORKS, lest any one should boast. Eph 2:8,9.
So, the ONLY conclusion is that Rev 2:11 is a "litotes", which I explained and provided my source."
I don't see how this challenges my statement. The context supports my comments.
No, an overcomer is a believer who actually overcomes.
Agreed. And they will not be rewarded, as the context shows.
No, overcoming is a work that will be rewarded.
Why is the concept of eternal reward being rejected, since the word is found all over the NT?
Nothing at all.
There's no logic to this statement. Nor Scriptural support.
We have no ability to be "removed from Him" even as the LOS doctrine teaches that we can.
We can't because we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption, as shown in the OP.
And no one has yet provided any verse that teaches that we can break this seal or that God will do so for ANY REASON. We are sealed for the day of redemption.
That's fine. But there ARE both fathers and sons who HAVE denied each other. And, so what? That didn't change the FACT of physical relationship one bit. They STILL REMAINED related to each other. By DNA.
It's no different spiritually. Even if one side denies the other, the relationship remains intact. What is lost is fellowship, not relationship.
This is only an assumption. There is no evidence that they weren't believers.
The doctrine of ES deceives no one. It is the LOS doctrine that ignores Scripture. Both Paul and Jesus used the aorist tense many times in regard to getting saved, and you have all your marbles on 1 Cor 15 as the definitive guide for how long one is saved. But the aorist tense refutes that idea.
Douglas Summers
Member
The religious leaders in Matthew Chapter 12 were not believers, nor were they saved. They had no salvation to lose. The reason one can not be forgiven for their blasphemy is when they witness the work of the Holy Spirit (knowing so) but assigns the miracles to the work of Satan in the presence of the Lord is insulting the Spirit of God in the face of God.
The born again believer can not and will not blasphemy the Holy Spirit, for he is a temple of the Holy Spirit. A believer can hinder or grieve the Holy Spirit in him by lack of obedience to His will, but never lose it.....it is a guaranteed that that possession (of the Lords), is sealed. The mature born again believers know this. But we are few compared to the many worldly churches that teach things of the doctrines of men as if they can teach Spiritual things carnally. (Eph. 1:3-14) (Eph. 4:30)
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Those who have believed have been given the free gift of eternal life. And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
Nothing in the OP teaches eternal security.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13
Those who turn from Him and worship the beast and take his mark on their forehead or hand, during the tribulation will be cast into the lake of fire.
This is just one example of the many many warnings from the Apostles and Jesus in the New Testament, about turning away from, departing from, or falling away from Him.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:7-14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12
Worshiping images of other gods is idolatry.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
Unfortunately, their will be many Christians who do not heed this warning, who have been taught the unbiblical OSAS doctrine, and who believe they can worship the image of the beast and receive his mark, or turn to Allah and confess him as Lord, yet continue to be saved.
JLB
But none of those warnings specifically say that one will lose salvation.
JohnDB
Member
I, not the Bible, am drawing a distinction that John seems to draw in his letter.
But it fits really well.
Some may say that it is splitting hairs. I don't.
I just see a lot of people "playing church" instead of worshipping God. You may have a different experience than I.
I pretend to love this world but I really love heaven.
Then prove your claim by telling me what the verses are teaching from the OP. They DO teach something.
Remember, ALL Scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
These verses cannot just be ignored or jettisoned. If they don't teach ES, then what do they teach?
This has not been answered.
I can't tell if this is an agreement with my comments, or a disagreement, regarding fellowship vs relationship.
JohnDB
Member
A distinction between being a subscriber and a believer is what I was referring to.
A subtle but major difference.
Those who overcome are those who believe Jesus Christ.
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5
Believers are overcomers.
Those who no longer believe, are no longer overcomers.
Believing is the qualifying factor in overcoming.
JLB