Eternal security or conditional security?

[JLB]

But none of those warnings specifically say that one will lose salvation.

You have never posted a verse that states Unbelievers, ex-believers, no longer believers, idolaters, apostates or blasphemers of the Holy Spirit are still saved.



JLB

 

[JLB]

They DO teach something.

They teach that believers are in Christ.

Believers are sealed with God's seal of approval, the Holy Spirit, if they have received the Holy Spirit.

Those who no longer believe in Christ, are not promised anything but God's wrath.

You would have to post a scripture that shows it's impossible to no longer believe, once you have believed in Him.

You would have to post a scripture that says it's impossible to practice the works of the flesh, after being saved.

You would have to post a scripture that says Christians who take the mark of the beast and worship him or the image of him are still saved.

You would have to post a scripture that says believers who turn to homosexuality and sexual immorality are still saved.

You would have to post a scripture that says all liars, are still saved, though they have their part in the lake of fire.

You would have to post a scripture that says those who turn away from Christ back to the law of Moses, are still saved.

This would be a good start.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Both Paul and Jesus used the aorist tense many times in regard to getting saved

So what? One is indeed saved when they believe. That is not what is in contention. Paul said you are presently saved if you hold fast the word by which you are saved:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

That is the argument, not whether or not a person is saved when they first believe. There is no disagreement in regard to that. Obviously, one has to have salvation in the first place to lose it in non-OSAS. The point is, because holding fast the word by which you are saved is a condition to be presently saved right now it is impossible for OSAS's interpretation of the scriptures in the OP to be true. The scriptures themselves are completely true, but only in the context of the one who is presently believing, not in the context of the one who used to believe but who does not now. That is argument.

and you have all your marbles on 1 Cor 15 as the definitive guide for how long one is saved. But the aorist tense refutes that idea.

The aorist tense describes you getting saved yesterday. The present tense describes you being saved today, right now. You are ignoring the irrefutable and plain fact that Paul uses the present tense to explain the condition for presently being saved (as opposed to being saved yesterday). That condition is that you are holding fast (also in the present tense) the word by which you are saved. OSAS has to explain this condition required to be presently saved, not ignore it and play all it's marbles only on the passages that speak of being saved yesterday (the aorist tense).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But none of those warnings specifically say that one will lose salvation.

OSAS has yet to explain how "the gospel...2 by which also you are saved (present tense) if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) isn't a warning to believers that they have to be presently holding fast and abiding in the word they heard yesterday to be presently saved.

Non-OSAS is still waiting for OSAS to step up and explain the glaring contradiction it's doctrine produces between the aorist and present tense verses about being saved. Non-OSAS produces no such contradiction that it has to explain salvation in the Bible in regard to it being in the past, and present tenses.

 

[MarkT]

We have no ability to be "removed from Him" even as the LOS doctrine teaches that we can.

We can't because we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption, as shown in the OP.

And no one has yet provided any verse that teaches that we can break this seal or that God will do so for ANY REASON. We are sealed for the day of redemption.

Who said anything about removing ourselves? Dead branches will be removed by the vinedresser. Dead branches will be broken off whether the branch likes it or not. Dead branches don't have any say in the matter.

Only those who have heard the word of truth (the gospel), and have believed in him, are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13 And the truth is branches that do not receive the living water, wither and die, and dead branches are broken off, gathered and burned (destroyed, consumed with fire). So it is with those who do not abide/remain/reside in him John 15:1-6

Eternal life is inherent in Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it. Eph. 1:13,14

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who have believed have been given the free gift of eternal life. And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.

The famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument.
In a debate, the point being argued can not be the answer to the point in debate. That's called circular reasoning. But I see this over and over in defenses of OSAS. But I understand why OSAS does this.

 

[Cygnus]

It doesn't. It sends those who DON'T BELIEVE to hell.
When a believer stops believing in the gospel they are no longer a believer that they should somehow still qualify by virtue of having faith to be saved.

Why would a true believer stop believing?

One answer...deception of some sort. So, your theology declares that deception can snatch you from Jesus hands and cause you to forfit your salvation. I think not.

 

[Cygnus]

I'll take that as a yes.

If you have a free will, are you free to exercise your free will, to turn away from Christ, and confess Allah as Lord?



.

So, you join the death by deception gospel. The snatchable gospel.

 

[Cygnus]

You have never posted a verse that states Unbelievers, ex-believers, no longer believers, idolaters, apostates or blasphemers of the Holy Spirit are still saved.



JLB

One could easily argue that they left the faith, because they were not of the faith..... because if they had been of the faith, they would have continued with the faith. But they left the faith, which makes it pretty clear that they were not of the faith.

 

[Cygnus]

OSAS has yet to explain how "the gospel...2 by which also you are saved (present tense) if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) isn't a warning to believers that they have to be presently holding fast and abiding in the word they heard yesterday to be presently saved.

Non-OSAS is still waiting for OSAS to step up and explain the glaring contradiction it's doctrine produces between the aorist and present tense verses about being saved. Non-OSAS produces no such contradiction that it has to explain salvation in the Bible in regard to it being in the past, and present tenses.

I would say there is no reason for the OSAS people to explain what you wrote simply because you took the verse way out of context.
The context has been explained to you several times....but you continue to tickle your ears with your interpretation.

 

[chessman]

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB all by itself nullifies any OSAS one might try to squeeze out of a passage of scripture.

No it doesn't. There is nothing contradictory with someone once becoming saved then always remaining saved and 1 Cor 15:1-2. You act like I don't believe 1 Cor 15:1-2.
I do believe it. All of it. No 'squeezeing out' of it is needed. And I believe OSAS too. No incompatibility exists between them as you keep claiming. 1 Cor 15 isn't part of the OP's ES case. It was brought up to squeeze out of the ES case by the old 'balancing Scripture against Scripture' squeeze. Next comes naming calling.

How in the world do you think Paul was so bold and confident in the believers still remaining saved (in the present) to write back to them claiming they still were saved from his previous visit? He was confident in the power they inherited at the time/place of their past belief, that's why. They didn't just raise their hand and believe superficially and without complete commitment, they were literally reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose. Those that were truly saved that is. And Paul knew they were.

And I believe all God's gifts and callings are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Anti-OSAS "squeezes out" of Paul's plain OSAS teaching in Rom 11:29 by saying he can't mean all gifts, such as the gift of Eternal Life, because 1 Cor 15 (and John 15) is anti-OSAS.
Or that Paul only meant the gifts and calling He gave to Israel were irrevocable. I don't believe you have any evidence for either point. You've made no real Biblical case for either point. 1 Cor 15 is not anti-OSAS and Paul specifically called Eternal Life a gift. So the idea that it's not irrevocable is obvoiusly wrong. Just like it's obviously wrong that 1 Cor 15:1-2 is anti-OSAS. Even if it were anti-OSAS, all that would prove is Paul contradicted himself between these two books.


And I believe the Eternal Life that is a gift of God's is applicable to Roman Gentiles, just as it was to Israel. You do not.

We know from the context of this discourse about Israel what the gifts and calling of Israel are that are irrevocable:
"... (Romans 9:3-5 NASB)

And I believe Eternal Life is eternal (lasts forever). You do not.

They have been trained to automatically answer the question of whether eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it with the argument that eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it.

Yes I was trained to know the difference between eternal life versus temporary life many years ago. Probably about the time I was finishing potty training.

 

[for_his_glory]

The religious leaders in Matthew Chapter 12 were not believers, nor were they saved. They had no salvation to lose. The reason one can not be forgiven for their blasphemy is when they witness the work of the Holy Spirit (knowing so) but assigns the miracles to the work of Satan in the presence of the Lord is insulting the Spirit of God in the face of God.

The born again believer can not and will not blasphemy the Holy Spirit, for he is a temple of the Holy Spirit. A believer can hinder or grieve the Holy Spirit in him by lack of obedience to His will, but never lose it.....it is a guaranteed that that possession (of the Lords), is sealed. The mature born again believers know this. But we are few compared to the many worldly churches that teach things of the doctrines of men as if they can teach Spiritual things carnally. (Eph. 1:3-14) (Eph. 4:30)

Let me put it this way. Some believe in a pretrib rapture that is suppose to happen before "The Great Tribulation". Some believe that the rapture does not occur until the end of the greatest tribulation that the world has never seen before nor ever will again as the world has always had tribulations.

Pretrib happens and Hallelujah we are out of here before Gods wrath is poured out on those who refused to repent.

Pretrib doesn't happen and those who believed it would now find themselves smack dab in the seven trumpet and seven vial judgments being poured out on those who refuse to repent. They are brought forth before the beast and his false prophet being forced to denounce Christ and take the mark of the beast or be persecuted even to death. Many will feel betrayed by what they were taught and in great fear for their own life and the life of their family will accept the mark of the beast as they now have broken that seal of the Holy Spirit believing this false prophet who performs great signs and wonders and promises peace and safety as they are deceived in believing a lie and will bow down to his false religion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would say there is no reason for the OSAS people to explain what you wrote simply because you took the verse way out of context.
The context has been explained to you several times....but you continue to tickle your ears with your interpretation.

How is pointing out the verb tenses that are actually used in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB just a non-OSAS interpretation, and not what the passage actually says?

I would hope that OSAS could address the actual words and tenses of the passage and explain how it is that 'hold fast the word preached to you' DOESN'T mean that's a condition for salvation. I have addressed those actual words and tenses and shown it is indeed teaching us that "you are saved if you hold fast the word preached to you" (vs. 2 bold mine).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would a true believer stop believing?

One answer...deception of some sort. So, your theology declares that deception can snatch you from Jesus hands and cause you to forfit your salvation. I think not.

Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB says nothing about deception, but instead points out the willing sin of the sanctified believer for which there is no forgiveness remaining.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How in the world do you think Paul was so bold and confident in the believers still remaining saved (in the present) to write back to them claiming they still were saved from his previous visit? He was confident in the power they inherited at the time/place of their past belief, that's why. They didn't just raise their hand and believe superficially and without complete commitment, they were literally reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose. Those that were truly saved that is. And Paul knew they were.

So, then, are you arguing that presently holding fast to the word preached to you is a condition for being presently saved? Or are you simply arguing that everyone who has believed will in fact always and without ceasing do that, and as a result, is and will be saved. That's an argument I can respect (I have zero respect for the OSAS argument that says ex-believers--people who don't trust in Christ--will inherit the kingdom).

The problem with the 'will always believe' argument is the author of Hebrews talks about those who through a willful sinning, trample on the sacrifice of the blood of Christ that sanctified them and suffer the wrath of God because there is no sacrifice for forgiveness remaining (meaning it's gone now) for the person who does that (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB).

If you think that OSAS is correct in that the believer will never stop believing, and so will satisfy Paul's requirement for presently being saved, what do you do with (Paul's?) warning about people sanctified by the blood of Christ losing the efficacy of the blood that sanctified them (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB)?

 

[Cygnus]

How is pointing out the verb tenses that are actually used in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB just a non-OSAS interpretation, and not what the passage actually says?

I would hope that OSAS could address the actual words and tenses of the passage and explain how it is that 'hold fast the word preached to you' DOESN'T mean that's a condition for salvation. I have addressed those actual words and tenses and shown it is indeed teaching us that "you are saved if you hold fast the word preached to you" (vs. 2 bold mine).

The verses is not explaining a condition for salvation.
But, as I have already told you...if there is a condition for salvation...you have already lost it.

 

[Cygnus]

Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB says nothing about deception, but instead points out the willing sin of the sanctified believer for which there is no forgiveness remaining.

Receiving the knowledge of the truth doesn't = salvation.

 

[MarkT]

Where in the bible does it say we have lost our free will to no longer believe in Christ as the Messiah?

I don't know that there is such a thing as freewill; a thing we possess. I understand volunteering and doing something voluntarily, but hearing and believing and knowing are involuntary acts of the heart and the soul and the mind. The sheep hear the Shepherd's voice, and they follow him because they know him.
John 10:14
I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,

The argument for freewill sounds like children telling their parents what they can do. It's like holding up your hand and saying to God, "I'll volunteer to believe", but in your heart you are saying, "you can't make me believe. You can't cast me out. I decide what you can do".

 

[FreeGrace]

A distinction between being a subscriber and a believer is what I was referring to.

A subtle but major difference.

Where is the idea of a "subscriber" found in Scripture?

 

[FreeGrace]

You have never posted a verse that states Unbelievers, ex-believers, no longer believers, idolaters, apostates or blasphemers of the Holy Spirit are still saved.
JLB

Why would I have to?

Jesus told us that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

And we know that eternal life is a gift of God from Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So I don't have to post "such a verse".

I'm still quite curious as to how the LOS doctrine understands all the verses in the OP and what they teach.