Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

I have been asking what all the verses in the OP do teach, if not ES.

They teach that believers are in Christ.

So far, so good.

Believers are sealed with God's seal of approval, the Holy Spirit, if they have received the Holy Spirit.

OK. And what are believers sealed FOR. iow, FOR what purpose? Eph 4:30 tells us plainly.

Those who no longer believe in Christ, are not promised anything but God's wrath.

Which verses were those in the OP?

You would have to post a scripture that shows it's impossible to no longer believe, once you have believed in Him.

Why would I have to do that? Jesus Himself tells us that some "believe for a while" and then fall away from their faith.

You would have to post a scripture that says it's impossible to practice the works of the flesh, after being saved.

You would have to post a scripture that says Christians who take the mark of the beast and worship him or the image of him are still saved.

You would have to post a scripture that says believers who turn to homosexuality and sexual immorality are still saved.

You would have to post a scripture that says all liars, are still saved, though they have their part in the lake of fire.

You would have to post a scripture that says those who turn away from Christ back to the law of Moses, are still saved.

This would be a good start.

Why would I "have to" do all that? I sure don't follow your line of thought.

I've shown all the verses that teach ES in the OP. You've still not explained what all of them do teach, if not ES.

How about taking 1 Thess 5:4-10 and explain each verse, as I did and show that my explanation is in error.

I explained that passage teaches that lifestyle makes no difference; that all believers, regardless of lifestyle "will live together with Him".

You'll need to address each verse and explain what it means if you disagree with my explanation.

 

[FreeGrace]

So what? One is indeed saved when they believe. That is not what is in contention. Paul said you are presently saved if you hold fast the word by which you are saved:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

That is the argument, not whether or not a person is saved when they first believe. There is no disagreement in regard to that. Obviously, one has to have salvation in the first place to lose it in non-OSAS.

2 major problems with your line of thought.

First, there are NO verses that tell us that salvation can be lost.

Second, Paul taught that God's gifts are irrevocable, and he described eternal life as a gift of God.

So I don't accept your interpretation of what you think Paul meant in 1 Cor 15. It doesn't fit anything else he wrote.

 

[MarkT]

Why would I have to?

Jesus told us that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

And we know that eternal life is a gift of God from Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So I don't have to post "such a verse".

I'm still quite curious as to how the LOS doctrine understands all the verses in the OP and what they teach.

Re. the gifts and the call of God,
You left out the word "For" from Paul's statement. Romans 11:29 and you ignore "in Christ Jesus" from his statement Romans 6:23 It makes a difference if you leave out words. For instance, Romans 11:29 is expanding on Romans 11:25-28 In fact he says they will be saved as a consequence of or because of the fact that they are Israelites, and so they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers, again, as a consequence of the covenant God made with Jacob. So saying the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable is just saying God keeps his promises.

And eternal life is inherent in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23 says the free gift of God is eternal life 'in Christ Jesus'. And Jesus said, if a man doesn't remain in him, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6

Now you want a different meaning, but even the word, 'irrevocable' carries with it a connotation of legal standing, a binding contract. So Romans 11:29 is about Jacob's descendants and their standing. They were supposed to receive the gifts the Gentiles received. Which is true. The Gentiles received the gifts.

A part of Israel was hardened. Still, Paul said, they are beloved because of their forefathers. So Paul says for this reason, or as a consequence of the covenant, for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, all Israel will be saved.

So this isn't a teaching about eternal life per se.

 

[FreeGrace]

OSAS has yet to explain how "the gospel...2 by which also you are saved (present tense) if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) isn't a warning to believers that they have to be presently holding fast and abiding in the word they heard yesterday to be presently saved.

Sure it has. Eternal life is a gift of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable. Therefore, eternal life cannot be lost.

There are no verses that indicate that one can "give away" his eternal life either. So, no matter how one wants to slice it, one cannot become de-saved. There are no verses that teach such a thing.

The doctrine of loss of salvation is based only on assumption.

 

[FreeGrace]

Who said anything about removing ourselves? Dead branches will be removed by the vinedresser. Dead branches will be broken off whether the branch likes it or not. Dead branches don't have any say in the matter.

Only those who have heard the word of truth (the gospel), and have believed in him, are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

This describes ALL believers. And from Eph 4:30, ALL believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption.

And, there are NO verses that teach that this seal can be broken by the believer or will be broken by God.

And the truth is branches that do not receive the living water, wither and die, and dead branches are broken off, gathered and burned (destroyed, consumed with fire). So it is with those who do not abide/remain/reside in him John 15:1-6

It is an error to try to mix and match unrelated verses. Jesus never mentioned "living water" in Jn 15. That was back in Jn 4, when talking to the woman at the well. And He said this: "but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” Jn 4:14

From a single event of drinking (believing in Christ), one will NEVER THIRST.

Jesus said it another way in Jn 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

He was quite clear: those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That is a promise.

Eternal life is inherent in Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it. Eph. 1:13,14

Hence, eternal security, or OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Those who have believed have been given the free gift of eternal life. And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God."

The famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument.

So, you're claiming that Paul used circular reasoning, huh?

In a debate, the point being argued can not be the answer to the point in debate.

How about actually explaining how I've done this. I've only pointed out what Paul taught. That eternal life is a gift of God. That is undeniable. And that God's gifts are irrevocable. Again, that is undeniable. I'm not accountable for those who don't see the direct connection.

Circular reasoning, my eye.

 

[Cygnus]

Why would I have to?

Jesus told us that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

And we know that eternal life is a gift of God from Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So I don't have to post "such a verse".

I'm still quite curious as to how the LOS doctrine understands all the verses in the OP and what they teach.

Eternal life if you do this and that gospel.

 

[FreeGrace]

Re. the gifts and the call of God,
You left out the word "For" from Paul's statement. Romans 11:29 and you ignore "in Christ Jesus" from his statement Romans 6:23 It makes a difference if you leave out words. For instance, Romans 11:29 is expanding on Romans 11:25-28 In fact he says they will be saved as a consequence of or because of the fact that they are Israelites, and so they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers, again, as a consequence of the covenant God made with Jacob. So saying the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable is just saying God keeps his promises.

Your charge is false. Of course only those "in Christ" (believers) have the gift of eternal life. I haven't ignored that. And once given, God's gifts are irrevocable. Where is the verse where Paul was clear about EXCLUDING the gift of eternal life from Rom 11:29? Huh? I don't find any such verse. Yet the LOS doctrine keeps insisting that Paul never included the gift of eternal life in Rom 11:29.

Yet, Paul NEVER EVER described anything that Israel had as a gift of God. It is LOS doctrine that is on very shaky ground.

And eternal life is inherent in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23 says the free gift of God is eternal life 'in Christ Jesus'.

Absolutely true. And Jesus said that those to whom He gives this gift WILL NEVER PERISH, in Jn 10:28.

So, LOS doctrine has a big problem. How can one who has been given the gift of eternal life ever perish?

And Jesus said, if a man doesn't remain in him, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6

This seems like ignoring John 10:28. The only way to understand John 15:6 is to understand what He meant by "remaining in Him". In other passages, we read "abide in Him" (1 Jn 2:27, 28). This is about fellowship, not relationship.

Now you want a different meaning, but even the word, 'irrevocable' carries with it a connotation of legal standing, a binding contract

Exactly.

So Romans 11:29 is about Jacob's descendants and their standing. They were supposed to receive the gifts the Gentiles received. Which is true. The Gentiles received the gifts.

Please show me where Paul described ANY "gifts" to the Jews. btw, your statement supports my position.

What are the gifts that the Gentiles received? From 1:11, spiritual gifts. From 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, justification. And from 6:23, eternal life. And it is THESE GIFTS that are irrevocable.

Denial of this fact doesn't make it go away.

So this isn't a teaching about eternal life per se.

It is, per se.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I'm still quite curious as to how the LOS doctrine understands all the verses in the OP and what they teach."

Eternal life if you do this and that gospel.

Got it.

 

[Cygnus]

I said this:
"I'm still quite curious as to how the LOS doctrine understands all the verses in the OP and what they teach."

Got it.

I've noticed for the LOS view to work there is a need to remove the scripture from its originaly intended context and apply it towards the LOS theology.
At one time I use to believe you could lose your salvation. I use to use the Hebrews 6:4 verse.....until I realized a non-believer could fulfill all that is spoken of in Heb 6:4-6.
What clinched it for me was John 10:27-29
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

[Cygnus]

I explained that passage teaches that lifestyle makes no difference; that all believers, regardless of lifestyle "will live together with Him".
.

True, but I might add that if you are living such a lifestyle (1st Cor 6:9) you're probably not a true believer.
But, and a big but... if you are a true believer...considering true believers are not fully sanctified...I think it may be possible to find yourself in one of those lifestyles. Your lifestyle pretty much equates to your "works". 1st Cor 3:15 and the surrounding verses talk about the Judgement or Bema Seat of Christ..and how your lifestyle/works will be judged.
"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Yes, you can be saved...but will have nothing to show for it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2 major problems with your line of thought.

First, there are NO verses that tell us that salvation can be lost.

Then explain the 'if' in 1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB.
Paul says the Corinthians are saved if they hold fast the word he preached to them. OSAS makes his statement utterly meaningless if it's true that they are presently saved if they DON'T hold fast the word he preached to them.

Second, Paul taught that God's gifts are irrevocable, and he described eternal life as a gift of God.

OSAS is the one that decided Paul was including eternal life/salvation in the gifts to Israel that are irrevocable. The text doesn't actually say that. OSAS decided it was included in the irrevocable gifts. We can see from 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB that you are saved if you hold fast the word preached. That means salvation can not be irrevocable simply because it is a gift. It has a condition attached. The condition is that you presently hold fast the gospel to be presently saved. That's what OSAS has to refute in order to defend salvation as a free gift that can't be taken back because it has no conditions attached. But all OSAS has been doing is simply restating it's argument, that salvation/eternal life is a free gift that is irrevocable. OSAS must prove with some kind of a defense that presently holding fast the word to be presently saved is not in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. OSAS hasn't done that yet.

So I don't accept your interpretation of what you think Paul meant in 1 Cor 15. It doesn't fit anything else he wrote.

The problem is OSAS interpretation of scripture doesn't fit the plain words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. OSAS has yet to show that the plain words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB are consistent with it's argument that there are zero conditions attached to the free gift of salvation/eternal life and, therefore, it is irrevocable. It has yet to show that Paul is NOT saying in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB that you are (presently) saved IF you hold fast the gospel you heard.

Reiterating OSAS belief is not what you have to do here. What you have to do is prove 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB is NOT saying "you are saved if you hold fast the word I preached to you". That's what it needs to do. Don't reiterate another claim of OSAS. That doesn't prove the passage doesn't say what it says. What doing that does is leave our Bibles in un-holy contradiction (non-OSAS doesn't do that). OSAS has to undo that contradiction by showing us that Paul's plain words are not there that says, "you are saved if you hold fast the word preached to you" (vs. 2).

 

[chessman]

If you think that OSAS is correct in that the believer will never stop believing [I do], and so will satisfy Paul's requirement for presently being saved, what do you do with (Paul's?) warning about people sanctified by the blood of Christ losing the efficacy of the blood that sanctified them (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB)?

That's easy. First, Hebrews 11 is talking about 1st Century (Old Covenant, blood of goats and bulls) Jews beginning to believe in the New Covenant (Blood of Christ) then possibly turning back to that old convenant (Bulls and goats). That's NOT the situation you agrue from. I don't know any Jews practicing weekly and yearly sacrifices in satisfaction of the OT and neither do you. Why would a Christian today stop believing in Christ's blood and turn to yearly goat blood? That makes zero sense. I don't see it happening today.

As for them coming out of the OT goats and bulls, pretty much the same thing. If they truly believed in Christ's blood over that of goats/bulls, then I don't see it happening.

But hay, if God can raise Jesus from the dead, His Spirit can keep His flock together. It's just called shepherding.

Hebrews 10:8-10 (AMP) After saying in the citation above, “You have neither desired, nor have You taken delight in sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin” which are offered according to the Law then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” And so He does away with the first covenant as a means of atoning for sin based on animal sacrifices so that He may inaugurate and establish the second covenant by means of obedience. And in accordance with this will of God we who believe in the message of salvation have been sanctified that is, set apart as holy for God and His purposes through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ the Messiah, the Anointed once for all. ​

So this is the context of the discussion going into v26.

Hebrews 10:11-12 (AMP) Every priest stands at his altar of service ministering daily, offering the same sacrifices over and over, which are never able to strip away sins that envelop and cover us; whereas Christ, having offered the one sacrifice the all-sufficient sacrifice of Himself for sins for all time, sat down signifying the completion of atonement for sin at the right hand of God the position of honor, ​

Basically repeating the same point. But here Hebrew's (Paul???) begins to highlight just how superior this New Covenant really is.

Hebrews 10:14 (AMP) For by the one offering He has perfected forever and completely cleansed those who are being sanctified bringing each believer to spiritual completion and maturity. And the Holy Spirit also adds His testimony to us in confirmation of this; ​

So a NT believer is perfected forever (versus for a week or year), completely cleansed (versus needing a bunch if individual sacrifices) and what's most important for my case; spiritually complete.

He even gives us NT believers a full-time helper and testimony to keep us on track. If a beleiver fails and goes to Hell, then the Holy Spirit has failed!

He then supports his previous case by referencing several OT Scriptures and past worship practices.

And then we find this, to which I will make several points:

Hebrews 10:26-27 (AMP)For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice to atone for our sins that is, no further offering to anticipate, but a kind of awful and terrifying expectation of divine judgment and the fury of a fire and burning wrath which will consume the adversaries those who put themselves in opposition to God.​

This is the author going back to his previous point. If a NT believer (but still culturally tied to Jews even family ties) were to begin to go back to OT practices they'd relyed on their whole life (which is again not the modern situation), then they would be doing so because they keep holding on to a terrifying expectation of judgment, burning wrath, etc. Or they feel a cultural need to sacrifice bulls and goats some more.

I don't know about you or others, but I have zero inclination to go sacrifice a bull for my suns. Nor would a so called Christian that turned Muslim or whatever.

The whole point is that this verse isn't applicable to the situation we find today.
I don't use texts out of their context to prove or disprove OSAS. If I ever run into someone that's about to start re-sacrificing bulls and gosts, I suppose it would be an applicable warning. I would wonder how it was they suddenly came to find Christ's sacrifice insufficient, yet goats and bulls are. Especially given the testimony of the Holy Spirit within them. Seems like more of a failure of God, than a failure of the man to me. That is, IF it ever happened that way back in the 1st Century. I doubt it did.

P.s. Thanks for respecting my view of OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What clinched it for me was John 10:27-29
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Yes, HIS SHEEP hear his voice and he gives them eternal life, and they will never perish. Stop being one of his sheep through a denial of Christ and you are no longer eligible to inherit the promises God has made to HIS SHEEP. The condition for the sure promises spoken to God's people is that they remain God's people through a holding fast of the word of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

 

[gr8grace3]

Then explain the 'if' in 1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB.
Paul says the Corinthians are saved if they hold fast the word he preached to them. OSAS makes his statement utterly meaningless if it's true that they are presently saved if they DON'T hold fast the word he preached to them.

It is simple Jethro. vs 1 talks of justification salvation.
KJV 1 Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;.........Stand~~ The perfect, active, indicative of istnmi
perfect tense~~ Expresses the results of the action to continue to exist.
indicative mood~~This mood is a mood of certainty with respect to the completion of the action of the verb.


Vs 2 speaks of sanctification salvation and then Paul goes onto preach about glorification salvation for the rest of the chapter.

The "if" in verse 2 would pertain to me or any believer who didn't "hold fast" to doctrine. If I didn't study TRUE doctrine.........I would eventually doubt His salvation, my eternal life or think that I could possibly lose salvation.......I would not experience sanctification salvation if I didn't "hold fast" doctrine.

I am justified. Now I can experience salvation in this life and my day to day routine IF I "hold fast" doctrine. IF I do not, I will doubt salvation,I will think salvation can be lost, I will not "experience" salvation and the TRUE christian life while I am alive. I will have to wait until glorification salvation to "experience" it..........and I would be naked,ashamed( for a moment) and with few rewards and crowns to cast at my Lords feet.

Believers who think that salvation can be lost......are not "holding fast" doctrine. If they did, they would know they were eternally secure.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've noticed for the LOS view to work there is a need to remove the scripture from its originaly intended context and apply it towards the LOS theology.
At one time I use to believe you could lose your salvation. I use to use the Hebrews 6:4 verse.....until I realized a non-believer could fulfill all that is spoken of in Heb 6:4-6.
What clinched it for me was John 10:27-29
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Absolutely!

 

[FreeGrace]

True, but I might add that if you are living such a lifestyle (1st Cor 6:9) you're probably not a true believer.
But, and a big but... if you are a true believer...considering true believers are not fully sanctified...I think it may be possible to find yourself in one of those lifestyles. Your lifestyle pretty much equates to your "works". 1st Cor 3:15 and the surrounding verses talk about the Judgement or Bema Seat of Christ..and how your lifestyle/works will be judged.
"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Yes, you can be saved...but will have nothing to show for it.

Exactly!

 

[gr8grace3]

True, but I might add that if you are living such a lifestyle (1st Cor 6:9) you're probably not a true believer.
But, and a big but... if you are a true believer...considering true believers are not fully sanctified...I think it may be possible to find yourself in one of those lifestyles. Your lifestyle pretty much equates to your "works". 1st Cor 3:15 and the surrounding verses talk about the Judgement or Bema Seat of Christ..and how your lifestyle/works will be judged.
"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Yes, you can be saved...but will have nothing to show for it.

And to throw a wrench in that...........while religion is out looking for the "sinner" who really isn't saved. Religion has many more that look really good, talk the talk and have cleaned up their lives and are NOT saved.

This is why "lifestyle" is always brought up by the religious folks. "life style" is their salvation.

Religion~~Satans ace trump.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, HIS SHEEP hear his voice and he gives them eternal life, and they will never perish. Stop being one of his sheep through a denial of Christ and you are no longer eligible to inherit the promises God has made to HIS SHEEP. The condition for the sure promises spoken to God's people is that they remain God's people through a holding fast of the word of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Do you think your supposed to add to scripture? Which you speak of is not in the bible.

Secondly....perhaps you ought to click on hold fast and see what it really means.

Perhaps you would also like to explain what "keep in memory" means....as many of the bible translators use that phrase in place of "hold fast".

 

[Douglas Summers]

Let me put it this way. Some believe in a pretrib rapture that is suppose to happen before "The Great Tribulation". Some believe that the rapture does not occur until the end of the greatest tribulation that the world has never seen before nor ever will again as the world has always had tribulations.

Pretrib happens and Hallelujah we are out of here before Gods wrath is poured out on those who refused to repent.

Pretrib doesn't happen and those who believed it would now find themselves smack dab in the seven trumpet and seven vial judgments being poured out on those who refuse to repent. They are brought forth before the beast and his false prophet being forced to denounce Christ and take the mark of the beast or be persecuted even to death. Many will feel betrayed by what they were taught and in great fear for their own life and the life of their family will accept the mark of the beast as they now have broken that seal of the Holy Spirit believing this false prophet who performs great signs and wonders and promises peace and safety as they are deceived in believing a lie and will bow down to his false religion.

Yes, that is very true in the minds of those who teach and believe as you do. But I'm not under the influence of your teachings and beliefs.