Eternal security or conditional security?

[Jethro Bodine]

Show me one commentary that agree's with you.

Gills commentary put's the verse in context.
By which also ye are saved,.... It was the means of their salvation, and had been made the power of God unto salvation to them. Salvation is inseparably connected with true faith in Christ as a Saviour, and with a hearty belief of his resurrection from the dead, which is the earnest and pledge of the resurrection of the saints; and because of the certainty of it in the promise of God, through the obedience and death of Christ, and in the faith and hope of believers, which are sure and certain things, they are said to be saved already. To which the apostle puts in the following provisos and exceptions; the one is, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you; or rather, "if ye hold fast, or retain"; that is, by faith, the doctrine preached to you, and received by you, particularly the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead; for the salvation that is connected with it does not depend upon the strength of the memory, but upon the truth and steadfastness of faith: it is the man that perseveres in the faith and doctrine of Christ that shall be saved; and everyone that has truly believed in Christ, and cordially embraced his Gospel, shall hold on, and out to the end; though the faith of nominal believers may be overthrown by such men, as Hymenaeus and Philetus, who asserted, that the resurrection was past already; but so shall not the faith of real believers, because the foundation on which they are built stands sure, and the Lord has perfect knowledge of them, and will keep and save them. The other exception is, unless ye have believed in vain: not that true faith can be in vain; for that is the faith of God's elect, the gift of his grace, the operation of his Spirit; Christ is the author and finisher of it, and will never suffer it to fail; it will certainly issue in everlasting salvation: but then as the word may be heard in vain, as it is by such who are compared to the wayside, and to the thorny and rocky ground; and as the Gospel of the grace of God may be received in vain; so a mere historical faith may be in vain; this a man may have, and not the grace of God, and so be nothing; with this he may believe for a while, and then drop it: and since each of these might possibly be the case of some in this church, the apostle puts in these exceptions, in order to awaken the attention of them all to this important doctrine he was reminding them of.

Pulpit commentary on same page says: The duty of "holding fast" what they had heard is often impressed on the early converts

I don't disagree with this commentary (he actually affirms much of what I've been saying) except for the OSAS teaching that those who believe can never then not believe. It's the only OSAS argument that I can have a measure of respect for. But as I've shown even that violates among other things the Biblical warning to sanctified believers as to what will happen to them if they trample on the blood of Christ in a willful rejection of that blood (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If your flawed theology is true...then we can sin up to the point we lose our salvation...then back off slightly.

How does one sin in regard to renouncing the blood of Christ up to a certain point but which still preserves their faith in that blood?

 

[chessman]

You can check all the tenses in the passage here:

All the tenses includes the past tense Paul used for believed in vain. Clearly Paul was basing their holding firm presently on their past belief's vainess or not. Something you conveniently leave out of you 'study' of "all" the tenses of the vetse. As I have pointed this out to you multiple times and showed the logical contradiction within your interpretation. The conclusion seems to be; "Truth! Truth! You can't handle the truth. Or was that Nicholson?

Plus, Paul used the wrong mood for the present tense verb (for hold firm) if he was trying to say it was imperative for them to hold firm in the present or future (which is how you keep thinking of the verse). He used the indicative mood for a reason! Their presently holding firm indicated they had had a past non-superfical belief. Now that's OSAS.

No wonder he was confident they were still saved in the present when he wrote back to them. He knows full well what that past belief can do for you in the future.

Just like Jesus knew full well that the one thief on the cross would be with Him in Paradise that night. Declaring it true, then dying to leave that thief still alive and being tempted. What if the other thief had teased him with; 'see this guy just died, he's not The Son of God'. And he changed his mind and stopped believing, loosing his salvation?

 

[chessman]

Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

The context is clear.
JLB

Hmm, out of eight definitions, not one of them is 'to loose your salvation'. I wonder why?

 

[Cygnus]

I don't disagree with this commentary (he actually affirms much of what I've been saying) except for the OSAS teaching that those who believe can never then not believe. It's the only OSAS argument that I can have a measure of respect for. But as I've shown even that violates among other things the Biblical warning to sanctified believers as to what will happen to them if they trample on the blood of Christ in a willful rejection of that blood (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB).

I'm getting sick of scripture being torn out of context.
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

"receiving the knowledge of the truth".....anyone who has heard the gospel has received the knowledge of the truth. Many. many, many people receivied the knowledge of the truth and despite that don't receive Jesus. They remain in their sins. With their rejection of Christ there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...as Jesus is the only way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All the tenses includes the past tense Paul used for believed in vain. Clearly Paul was basing their holding firm presently on their past belief's vainess or not. Something you conveniently leave out of you 'study' of "all" the tenses of the vetse.

And as I've said, the "unless you believed in vain" does not change the truth of the 'if' condition in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). Even if they did 'not really' believe his gospel at the beginning that does not change the truth that 'you are saved if you hold firmly the word I preached to you'.

 

[JLB]

Once again scripture is RIPPED from it's context.
Quote mining at its finest.

Have you read the text? The context of the scripture surrounding that verse? YOU can't make scripture say what it doesn't.

What is Matt 24 about? Have you ever read the entire chapter?

Answer the following:
Endures what?
To the end of what?
Saved from what?

Sheeze, will you people stop using that verse to support you can lose your salvation.

The context is about the end of the age and the coming of the Lord.

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age Matthew 24:3

Jesus goes on to list the signs to look for, just before His coming.

Then He makes this statement about the world hatred and persecution of His people.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-13

That's the context. Enduring the persecution and not turning away from Him, not falling into unbelief through becoming hard hearted, but enduring to the end, even if it means losing your life for His sake during the great tribulation.


Jesus warned of falling away because of persecution, as did Paul.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Endures what?

Persecution, tribulation, suffering.

To the end of what?

To the end of your life.

Saved from what?

Eternal damnation.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

How does one sin in regard to renouncing the blood of Christ up to a certain point but which still preserves their faith in that blood?

Well look at that...better yet for you. Now you know the point of no return.....you can sin, BUT as long as you don't renounce the blood of Christ...you're in!!!

Perhaps i should say "If your theology is true in how I think you are presenting it here then we can all go home to our favorite hobbies, sins, etc. and not be bothered with all of this."...you don't renounce the blood of Christ

....I trust you'll never use that argument again...considering it just bit you back.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

"receiving the knowledge of the truth".....anyone who has heard the gospel has received the knowledge of the truth.

Perhaps, but, for argument's sake, are all that receive the truth sanctified by the blood of Jesus (vs.29)? Only believers are sanctified by the blood of Christ through their faith in that blood (Acts 26:18 NASB). The warning for trampling on the blood of Christ and being Judged with the enemies of God is to believers.

 

[Cygnus]

The context is about the end of the age and the coming of the Lord.

JLB

Exactly. Now leave the verse in context.
Glad we settled that.

 

[Cygnus]

Perhaps, but, for argument's sake, are all that receive the truth sanctified by the blood of Jesus (vs.29)? Only believers are sanctified by the blood of Christ through their faith in that blood (Acts 26:18 NASB). The warning for trampling on the blood of Christ and being Judged with the enemies of God is to believers.

I read the verse....it makes no sense under your context. Perhaps you can lay it out better.

 

[turnorburn]

"Have you done these things"?.....That's not required. To put it in that context is to take the parable out of context.

i was using it as an example in regards to works salvation..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well look at that...better yet for you. Now you know the point of no return.....you can sin, BUT as long as you don't renounce the blood of Christ...you're in!!!

Every saved believer sins in a '7x70' relationship with God (I'm assuming you know what that mean--Matthew 18:21-35 NASB). But it's when you stop relying in faith on the blood of Christ for the forgiveness and repentance part of your '7x70' sinning, that's when you are trampling on the blood of Christ in a willful sinning for which God will judge you for, if you persist in it and reject any of his offers for you to come back to your senses.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

i was using it as an example in regards to works salvation..

By the way, I added some stuff to my response if you'd like to read it.

 

[Cygnus]

i was using it as an example in regards to works salvation..

Sometimes it's hard to know the direction of a post.

 

[chessman]

And as I've said, the "unless you believed in vain" does not change the truth of the 'if' condition in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Only in your mind it doesn't change the meaning of the verse. From a logical flow, (like computer code uses to determine outcomes) it most certainly does change the verse's meaning from what you claim (anti-OSAS proof that out-weights other verses) into a perfectly compatible OSAS verse.

He didn't say; unless you believed (past tense) in vain for no reason. Your view simply ignores that section of the verse and it's past tense.

Now who's not reading their Bible?

 

[Cygnus]

Every saved believer sins in a '7x70' relationship with God (I'm assuming you know what that mean--Matthew 18:21-35 NASB). But it's when you stop relying in faith on the blood of Christ for the forgiveness and repentance part of your '7x70' sinning, that's when you are trampling on the blood of Christ in a willful sinning for which God will judge you for, if you persist in it and reject any of his offers for you to come back to your senses.

We will all be judged at the Bema Seat. Not concerning salvation...but rather concerning how we lived for Christ. You just might not get that crown.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I read the verse....it makes no sense under your context. Perhaps you can lay it out better.

Notice the passage is not written for and about 'not really' believing people as OSAS claims. It plainly points out that it is talking about blood bought people of God:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”dand again, “The Lord will judge his people.”e31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB)

And the warning to these blood bought people of God is if they trample on the blood of Christ that sanctified them in a willful sinning there is no sacrifice remaining for them by which they can be spared the wrath of God (how can there be, they have cast it down and trampled it away).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He didn't say; unless you believed (past tense) in vain for no reason.

Right. I never said it did mean that.

 

[Cygnus]

Notice the passage is not written for and about 'not really' believing people as OSAS claims. It plainly points out that it is talking about blood bought people of God:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”dand again, “The Lord will judge his people.”e31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB)

And the warning to these blood bought people of God is if they trample on the blood of Christ that sanctified them in a willful sinning there is no sacrifice remaining for them by which they can be spared the wrath of God (how can there be, they have cast it down and trampled it away).

The verses is about the rejection of Christ and how in their rejection they have received the knowledge of truth...rejected it...thusly trample the the Son of God underfoot.

Very simple.