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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Eternal security or conditional security?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
The more of these threads i read the more convinced i am , we can give up our salvation.. Granted it appears to be much harder then what I grew up with... the old pentecostal get saved every week... . One of the reasons i think... feel .. believe that way is the twisting of Scripture i read here...
What are you talking about? The KJV mentions "reward" 79 times, and "rewards" 5 times.
Uh, don't forget to mention the key word; to inherit.
Which verse says we will inherit the kingdom of darkness? Please be specific.
Where does this passage speak of inheriting either one or the other kingdom? It doesn't. It seems you've just made it all up.
In a parallel passage in Eph 5, we are warned about not having an inheritance IN the kingdom. Obviously a reference to loss of reward.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10[/QUOTE]
Loss of reward.
There it is; plain as day: "has any inheritance IN the kingdom".
The issue is whether a child of God will have any inheritance IN the kingdom.
Of course we aren't. But there are NO verses that teach that one will lose salvation.
More assumption.
What should be obvious is that those who have been given eternal life will NEVER be described as "you cursed" because Jesus PROMISED that those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.
How do you read that?
Are you convinced from what Scripture says? If so, which Scriptures have convinced you. I ask because I've never seen any verse that teaches that people can "give up our salvation".
Given how you are convinced, could you explain what the verses in the OP are teaching then?Granted it appears to be much harder then what I grew up with... the old pentecostal get saved every week... . One of the reasons i think... feel .. believe that way is the twisting of Scripture i read here...
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Which words in this verse communicate that loss of salvation is possible?
JohnDB
Member
Not in the verse's I posted concerning the phrase "inherit the kingdom"
Can you post a scripture that contains the phrase "inherit rewards"
JLB
Here's my post again, since you seemed to have missed that word mentioned in it.
You will either inherit God's Kingdom, of the Kingdom [domain; dominion] of Darkness.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7
Clearly and plainly are we warned not to be partakers of God's wrath, with those who are disobedient.
- Inherit the kingdom = Blessed and welcome into God's Kingdom.
- Do not inherit the kingdom = cursed and sentenced to hell, along with the devil.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
JLB
Jesus plainly qualified those who would be saved.... Those who endure to the end.
Jesus plainly taught us about enduring under persecution, and those who fall away from Him because of it.
21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:21
Luke says it this way -
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
Jesus plainly mentioned salvation in this context of Matthew 24 concerning the tribulation, and since He elaborated it even more in the book of Revelation, specifically mentioning the beast and the mark and those who worship the beast.
The context is clear, and most certainly involves a person and their salvation.
Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
Maybe you would like to try and "redefine" what saved means here for us?
JLB
Explaining those verses to you would do nothing as i see they are out of context to fit your theology.. .. If you truly believe what you say then you are free to do these works of the flesh at will without fear of God ..... Pro_15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If you choose to pick at the words "give up our salvation " go for it every one reading this completely understand what i am talking about.
These are but a few verses there are many more... Christians can not continue in sin and be saved . And that is not say we dont sin.. we do something about an attitude of the heart
I can quickly guess your reply having been down this road many times. ..
What i 'hear' you say is you could spit in the face of Christ and not fear loosing your salvation..
Do you mean eternal security or eternal life? His words mean eternal life to me. I don't know what they mean to you.
The fact of rewards based on obedient lifestyle is a biblical principle. Your "demand" for specific wording works against LOS doctrine, since NONE of the verses given for LOS doctrine do not contain the words "loss of salvation".
So, when you post a verse that contains the phrase "loss of salvation" or "loss of eternal life", then I guess the LOS doctrine will have some credibility.
If you want certain specific wording from me, I'll demand the same from you.
But, as it is, all the verses in the OP teach eternal security.
Actually, you missed my point. Where in that passage do we read about more than one kingdom?
http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph 5.3-7
Again, none of these passages indicates more than one kingdom that can be inherited.
Why do you think one will "inherit the kingdom of darkness". Where in the Bible is the instructions of how to inherit that kingdom?
It seems you keep making stuff up.
Do you default to eternal soul salvation every time you encounter the word "save" in Scripture? Why would anyone do that?
Acts 27:20 - When neither sun nor stars appeared for many days and the storm continued raging, we finally gave up all hope of being saved.
Acts 27:31 - Then Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay with the ship, you cannot be saved.”
James 5:16 - And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
There are many more examples of the use of "save" that do NOT apply to eternal soul salvation.
Jesus also plainly taught that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, in Jn 10:28. Which agrees with Paul's teaching that God's gifts are irrevocable, and Paul himself described eternal life as a gift of God.
I don't have to redefine anything. Just check the 3 verses I just gave to PROVE that the word "saved" doesn't ALWAYS default to eternal soul salvation.
The meaning of the word is simply "deliver from danger, rescue". It can be applied in many ways. That's where discernment comes into play.
Because the Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works, your "interpretation" of Matt 24 cannot be correct. Period.
We know from 2 Tim 2:12 that those who endure will "reign with Christ", but that those who don't, will be denied reigning with Christ. More proof that your "interpretation" cannot be correct.
Jethro Bodine
Member
And we know from Revelation that those who don't overcome and reign with Christ will be cast into the lake of fire:
5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5 NASB)
"11‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’" (Revelation 2:11 NASB)
He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says
.
I said this:
"Are you convinced from what Scripture says? If so, which Scriptures have convinced you. I ask because I've never seen any verse that teaches that people can "give up our salvation".
Given how you are convinced, could you explain what the verses in the OP are teaching then?"
I would think these are rather easy questions to answer, if my view is unbiblical. The verses DO mean something. So, what do they mean? I've not been given any answer to that.
Yet, I have always provided a biblically based explanation of ALL the verses used by LOS doctrine, to show that they don't teach LOS.
The Bible gives us examples of how God exercises His discipline. For example, 1 Cor 11:30 is instructive:
"For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep." iow, physical suffering for abusing the Lord's Table, in this example. But the principle of physical suffering is seen throughout Scripture.
Another example is Paul's instruction of the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5. He was to be turned over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh". iow, God's discipline may include allowing Satan to torment the disobedient believer. Does that sound like "getting away" with anything? Not to me.
And the Galatian passage is about loss of reward in the kingdom based on the lifestyle indicated.
And Rev 21 is about unbelievers. The Bible never refers to believers who cease to believe as unbelievers.
That would be akin to saying that one who has been born again becomes unborn. Which is impossible in the physical world, and there is no reason to assume that it's possible in the spiritual world.
None of the warning passages even mentions salvation or eternal life. That isn't "picking at words". It's pointing out what missing from all the LOS doctrine verses.
Are there any sins that Christ did not die for?
"Are you convinced from what Scripture says? If so, which Scriptures have convinced you. I ask because I've never seen any verse that teaches that people can "give up our salvation".
Given how you are convinced, could you explain what the verses in the OP are teaching then?"
An explanation of how the verses in the OP are "out of context" would go a long way in showing me my error. My point has been that 2 Tim 3:16 says that ALL Scripture is profitable in 4 categories; teaching, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. Now, if the verses in the OP are profitable for teaching, just what do they teach, if not ES? Or, if they are profitable for one of the other 3 categories, which category do they fit?
I would think these are rather easy questions to answer, if my view is unbiblical. The verses DO mean something. So, what do they mean? I've not been given any answer to that.
Yet, I have always provided a biblically based explanation of ALL the verses used by LOS doctrine, to show that they don't teach LOS.
I guess you missed all my posts about God's discipline then. I've never ever even hinted that one can sin without any consequence, but it seems those who disagree with OSAS always miss the doctrine of divine discipline. Doesn't Heb 12 mean anything? God punishes His children.
The Bible gives us examples of how God exercises His discipline. For example, 1 Cor 11:30 is instructive:
"For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep." iow, physical suffering for abusing the Lord's Table, in this example. But the principle of physical suffering is seen throughout Scripture.
Another example is Paul's instruction of the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5. He was to be turned over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh". iow, God's discipline may include allowing Satan to torment the disobedient believer. Does that sound like "getting away" with anything? Not to me.
Are you suggesting that Prov 15:33 indicates that those believers who don't "fear the Lord" will lose salvation?
And the Galatian passage is about loss of reward in the kingdom based on the lifestyle indicated.
And Rev 21 is about unbelievers. The Bible never refers to believers who cease to believe as unbelievers.
That would be akin to saying that one who has been born again becomes unborn. Which is impossible in the physical world, and there is no reason to assume that it's possible in the spiritual world.
I'm not picking at words. I am pointing out that there are no verses that speak of losing salvation or eternal life. Or having our salvation or eternal life taken away.
None of the warning passages even mentions salvation or eternal life. That isn't "picking at words". It's pointing out what missing from all the LOS doctrine verses.
Yet, there are no verses that teach this in plain straightforward wording.
This statement seems to be in contrast to your previous statement about "can not continue in sin and be saved".
Did Christ die for such a horrible act?
Are there any sins that Christ did not die for?
The phrase "eternal life" means just that; those who have believed have eternal life. Which is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable. Do they mean something other than that to you?
And, the phrase "WILL NEVER PERISH" means eternal security. Those who have believed WILL NEVER PERISH, because they have eternal life.
Jethro Bodine
Member
And discernment will not violate context.
All you have to do is see that 'salvation' in 1 Corinthians 15 is in the context of eternal salvation.