Eternal security or conditional security?

[Jethro Bodine]

We will all be judged at the Bema Seat. Not concerning salvation...but rather concerning how we lived for Christ. You just might not get that crown.

Better read Matthew 25:31-46 NASB before you decide you and I aren't going to be judged as to our salvation. We will indeed be judged as to how we lived our lives, and it will be used to determine if we have faith in Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The verses is about the rejection of Christ and how in their rejection they have received the knowledge of truth...rejected it...thusly trample the the Son of God underfoot.

Very simple.

And you're just going to ignore the parts about this being about blood bought sanctified people of God?

 

[for_his_glory]

I have to disagree. Not that it really matters....but the bible says Jesus comes back twice. In the air (rapture) then again when He stands on earth arriving on a horse.

Acts 1:9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

There is no horse when Jesus left. When Jesus comes again referring to the blue above Jesus will not be riiding a horse.

So, what described that above? Where does Jesus return with clouds like he left with no horse?
1 Thes 4:16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord

Where in those two verses you posted show where Jesus comes back twice? It says He will come back in just the way he left.
The white horse is not literal, but symbolic of Christ arriving in all power and authority. It's like when only Generals rode literal white horses into battle to show their superiority in earthly power and authority. Was that a literal sharp sword that came out of the mouth of Jesus, no, as it was the word of God likened unto a sharp sword.

 

[FreeGrace]

That verse has also been translated in this fashion:
"to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;"
Here's the bible hub parallel translations of Romans 2:7.

To translate that verse as works equals salvation would be a strong contradiction to the rest of the inspired writings of Paul

Indeed!! In fact, Paul makes quite clear a bit further into Romans that "there is none that doeth good, no, not even one". 3:9 And "for ALL have sinned and FALL SHORT of the glory of God". 3:23

Proving that no one has ever, or ever will, fulfill Rom 2:6-7. Which is WHY Christ came and died for the sins of the world.

 

[Cygnus]

And you're just going to ignore the parts about this being about blood bought sanctified people of God?

I didn't see it....so yes.

 

[FreeGrace]

What did Jesus mean by believe?

We know what He meant by the meaning of the Greek word for 'believe'; which is pisteuō:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

Your Gospel seems to teach that a person can be saved by grace through faith, and then turn away from Him and no longer believe, and back to a lifestyle of evil, even idolatry, and continually produce the fruit of unrighteousness, and in the end still inherit the kingdom of God.

I've explained this numerous times, but it seems you just don't want to admit what I have posted.

I have said repeatedly that those who do such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. It's just that we disagree on what that means. They FORFEIT inheritance IN the kingdom by such things. This is about loss of reward, which IS taught in Scripture, but seems your theology has no place for.

But 1 Cor 3:14-15 clearly teach loss of reward yet saved.

 

[Cygnus]

Better read Matthew 25:31-46 NASB before you decide you and I aren't going to be judged as to our salvation. We will indeed be judged as to how we lived our lives, and it will be used to determine if we have faith in Christ's sacrifice.

Faith is a gift from God....I think your going a bit off road to demonstrate your point.

 

[Cygnus]

Where in those two verses you posted show where Jesus comes back twice? It says He will come back in just the way he left.
The white horse is not literal, but symbolic of Christ arriving in all power and authority. It's like when only Generals rode literal white horses into battle to show their superiority in earthly power and authority. Was that a literal sharp sword that came out of the mouth of Jesus, no, as it was the word of God likened unto a sharp sword.

I see the white horse as literal.

The horse is seen again in Rev 19:19...mentioned along with the beast, kings and armies. Your interpretation would tell us the beast, kings and armies are not literal...but rather symbolic.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

 

[FreeGrace]

IMO, the OSAS Hyper-grace doctrine that teaches a person can be saved by faith, then depart from the very faith, through which they were saved, and serve another god, and even take the mark of the beast, and still somehow be saved, is a doctrine of demons, that entices a person into a false sense of eternal security.
JLB

This is now the SECOND time you've used the pejorative term "hyper-grace", which only high-lights the negative attitude of LOS doctrine towards the grace of God. The prefix "hyper" is mostly used in a very negative way, to indicate "too much", "excessive", etc.

So, all you've done is demonstrate LOS doctrine's intolerance of God's matchless grace.

The Bible says this about God's grace:
2 Cor 9:8 - And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
Eph 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
James 4:6 - But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

So, what you pejoratively identify as "hyper-grace", as if OSAS believes in "too much" grace, or "excessive" grace, the Bible tells us that God makes ALL GRACE abound to us so that we have ALL sufficiency and have an abundance for every good deed.

And we are saved by grace (cannot be "too much" of grace). And God gives GREATER GRACE, not "excessive" grace.

So, how in the world can there even be such a notion as "hyper-grace". We ALL should be ON OUR KNEES and thanking God for His GREATER GRACE.

If it weren't for God's GREATER GRACE, neither you nor I would be saved.

Think about it.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Yes, one can leave the faith. But you have yet to prove from Scripture that leaving the faith results in loss of salvation. And leaving the faith, or departing from Christ does NOT break the sealing with the Holy Spirit, in which the believer is placed "IN CHRIST"."

Jesus plainly teaches us different.

I have already showed you what Jesus teaches: that those He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28.

Now, please answer this question: how can one who has been given eternal life and promised that they WILL NEVER PERISH ever end up in the lake of fire?

One would have to say that Jesus didn't mean what He promised.

I'm rather tired of having to repeatedly explain all the verses you keep quoting as if they somehow refute what Jesus said in Jn 10:28.

If all the verses you keep repeating teach LOS, then you've got a huge problem with what Jesus said in Jn 10:28. That one verse is MORE CLEAR in stating ES than all your verses that you think teach LOS.

 

[FreeGrace]

So right after warning the Gentiles to not be proud, saying, "you only stand fast through faith" Romans 11:20 and saying natural branches were cut off because of unbelief, and saying you too can be cut off (if God didn't spare the natural branches neither will he spare you), Romans 11:21,one line causes you to believe no believer can ever be cut off. Where Paul says, if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you, you take one line and make it the foundation of OSAS. Right smack dab in his discourse about the severity of God towards those who have fallen because of unbelief, you take one line to mean no one can lose their salvation, even if they fall into unbelief. And I mean right after his warning and saying you too can be cut off, you think he is saying, don't worry, no believer can be cut off; no believer can lose their salvation. Does that make sense?

Yes. Because Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. How does this statement NOT teach eternal security? Please explain.

 

[FreeGrace]

But OSAS says you still inherit the promises without faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) and the work it produces. Which essentially makes the author of Hebrews exhortation completely and utterly meaningless.

It's always interesting to see how one keeps twisting the views of others. The Biblical doctrine of eternal security teaches that there IS a negative side to departing the faith, which the non-OSAS doctrine seems obsessed with.

The issue is rewards, which I find is totally missing from non-OSAS doctrine. Yet the Bible says much about rewards, and how to lose rewards. But the non-OSAS doctrine teaches that even non-productive believers will be burned in the lake of fire. Which indicates that non-OSAS doctrine must view gust getting into heaven as a reward. Yet, the very definition of reward means something that is EARNED. Which is quite unbiblical, to say the least.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've never made an argument that someone else or something else can remove you from the hand of God. Only your own willful rejection of Christ can remove you.

Yet, where is it specifically stated that ANY action "can remove you" from Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

I mean, right after he warns the Gentiles about unbelief, he says, once a person is saved they are always saved? I don't think so.

Maybe you don't think so. But Jesus said this:
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. Jn 10:28

So, who does Jesus give eternal life to? Believers, those who have "entered by Me, and are saved", per John 10:9.

So, anyone who has been given eternal life are PROMISED by Jesus to NEVER PERISH.

Maybe a re-think is indicated.

 

[FreeGrace]

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
JLB

Context, please. 2

 

[Cygnus]

It's always interesting to see how one keeps twisting the views of others. The Biblical doctrine of eternal security teaches that there IS a negative side to departing the faith, which the non-OSAS doctrine seems obsessed with.

The issue is rewards, which I find is totally missing from non-OSAS doctrine. Yet the Bible says much about rewards, and how to lose rewards. But the non-OSAS doctrine teaches that even non-productive believers will be burned in the lake of fire. Which indicates that non-OSAS doctrine must view gust getting into heaven as a reward. Yet, the very definition of reward means something that is EARNED. Which is quite unbiblical, to say the least.

+1

 

[FreeGrace]

Better read Matthew 25:31-46 NASB before you decide you and I aren't going to be judged as to our salvation. We will indeed be judged as to how we lived our lives, and it will be used to determine if we have faith in Christ's sacrifice.

That judgment is about whether or not the child of God will be rewarded or not.

 

[Douglas Summers]

It's not only in my mind, but in my very soul that I believe the way I do as I study the deeper things of Gods word. I am glad that you are not influenced by what I present as I would never want any one to believe me, but to believe what God has already spoken and come up with their own conclusions. Many are influenced by their Pastors and believe every word that comes out of their mouth as I use to believe everything they taught on pretrib. It is only when I started studying Revelations and back tracking through the OT and NT mixed with history doing this apart from all that I have ever been taught that I find many of their teachings are through what they themselves have been taught through traditional teachings of those before them.

I read Matthew 24 as being an outline of those things to come in Revelations as the disciples asked Jesus three questions, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"Jesus answered them saying, "Take heed that no man deceive you." then Jesus proceeded to tell them what must come first before He returns.This is when I started digging deeper many years ago as many Pastors I use to listen to use Rev 4 to show we are caught up to Jesus before Gods wrath begins, but no where does it say any such thing.

It is good to have zeal, but you must be born again.(John 3:5) You may be convicted in your soul, but without rebirth, your zeal is of the flesh, Without the supernatural guidance and work of the Holy Spirit, you are only satisfying your spirit. The Holy Ghost does not give you power to do what you want to do, but the Holy Ghost does the work through you.(Corinthians chapter 12) In true service of the Lord, He feels the pain and persecution of His saints.(Acts 9:3-5) It is only the Holy Spirit that gives us gifts, and there is no born again believer that does not have a gift.
The United States has reached an immoral and EVIL state beyond anything I have ever seen. The enemies of God can argue and lie all they want...but they are liars when they say the United States was not created on Biblical principles. I grew up feeling that God looked over us with ministers of God, even in high places. Now I feel no Spiritual cover over us any more, and believers are a small minority. This is where the warfare is, and the results of the lack of our warfare has let the enemy to become the majority, especially in high places. I'm not your enemy, the enemy is taking over this country and the churches with no resistance. But with out Spiritual rebirth, man is preaching for favor and acceptance and self satisfaction instead of out of necessity.

 

[JLB]

Context, please. 2

The context is about the end of the age and the coming of the Lord.

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age Matthew 24:3

Jesus goes on to list the signs to look for, just before His coming.

Then He makes this statement about the world hatred and persecution of His people.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-13

That's the context. Enduring the persecution and not turning away from Him, not falling into unbelief through becoming hard hearted, but enduring to the end, even if it means losing your life for His sake during the great tribulation.


Jesus warned of falling away because of persecution, as did Paul.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

 

[JLB]

We know what He meant by the meaning of the Greek word for 'believe'; which is pisteuō:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing


I've explained this numerous times, but it seems you just don't want to admit what I have posted.

I have said repeatedly that those who do such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. It's just that we disagree on what that means. They FORFEIT inheritance IN the kingdom by such things. This is about loss of reward, which IS taught in Scripture, but seems your theology has no place for.

But 1 Cor 3:14-15 clearly teach loss of reward yet saved.

Unfortunately for your "OSAS" doctrine, rewards are not mentioned.

The kingdom of God itself is what is mentioned.

You will either inherit God's Kingdom, of the Kingdom [domain; dominion] of Darkness.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7


Clearly and plainly are we warned not to be partakers of God's wrath, with those who are disobedient.

• Inherit the kingdom = Blessed and welcome into God's Kingdom.

• Do not inherit the kingdom = cursed and sentenced to hell, along with the devil.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



JLB